Original Brass Shells

[Jay Oliver]

Hello Everyone,

I bought an 1880 lifter this past spring and it came with 18 Parker 12A Brass shells along with primers, powder and some reloading tools. My first question is age..how long did Parker/UMC make these shells? I was able to find a date online regarding the almost full primer tin and I found that they were first made in 1884(though I don’t know how old these might be). Overall I was just curious on how old all of this might be and if it could it be close to the age of the gun.

I cleaned 2 shells with the idea of shooting them just to do it, I wouldn’t use the powder in the picture, but that came with all of my “goodies” as well. Does anyone still shoot these original shells? Is there a good source for primers for these older shells? I had a hard time finding any others online.

I do think I’ll order some off the replica Parker Bros. 12A shells from Track of the Wolf as I have really enjoyed the 10ga. versions in my short ten.

Let me know if I should put this original stuff away and just be thankful I have it with the gun.

Thank you,

Jay

[Dean Romig]

I wouldn't use the powder or the primers. Keep them with the gun and use Track of the Wolf shells and whatever more modern components you can find.






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[John Campbell]

Mr. Oliver:
Dean is correct. The materials you got with the gun should be considered "collectibles" and not used. Especially the brass cases. Brass often has a tendency to "age crack" and/or embrittle with time. This is why various armed forces sold off ammunition after so many years. The didn't consider it reliable any longer.

Best to stay with current components if you intend to shoot the gun. And an inspection by a competent double gunsmith would be advised as well.

[Paul Harm]

I have old original brass shells. The 10ga use large rifle or pistol primers, the 12ga small. I would think one or the other would fit. Sounds like you got a real nice buy.

[John Mazza]

Old primers sometimes contained mercury, and it was the mercuric primers that could cause the embrittlement in the brass, as well as contribute to corrosion of the bore.

[Jay Oliver]

Thanks for the replies. I only got excited about all of this when I realized I had all of the components to possibly shoot some shells that this gun may have shot over a 100 years ago. Does it hurt the collector value to clean the shells? I thought it might which is why I just cleaned 2.

The gun is mechanically sound and I have shot 8 boxes or so of RST's through it. I posted some pictures when I bought it back in the spring. Its a grade 2 with 32" barrels. I was loading my newer brass 10 gauge shells and thought about using brass shells in this 12. That's what got me started on this and I was curious as to how old the shells and primers might be.

I appreciate the advice and I will not use the shells. I must admit though, the 2 I cleaned fit perfectly in the chambers...

Thanks again,

Jay

[David Noble]

If you have multiples, I see no reason to not load a few and shoot them, albeit with fresh components. If you're shooting the gun, why sweat loading and shooting the brass cases?

[Mark Landskov]

It won't hurt the value if you CLEAN them. Heavy crud can be carefully scraped off. A brass bristled 'tooth brush', from your local hardware emporium, can be used vigourously to remove various forms of verdigris. Quite often the brass will remain stained, which is understandable. Good Luck!

[Dean Romig]

As with any antique that you intend to clean while retaining its original beauty - never use an abrasive of any kind. Soak them in a solution that will eventually dissolve or at least soften the crud. They may need to soak for weeks... then use a soft nylon toothbrush on them while they are still wet.






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[William Davis]

They may have been reloaded at one time with corrosive primers. Very difficult to tell if a case is bad. Older cases often have folded heads not solid like new brass and are much weaker.

Rifles generally have a gas escape path for this situation. Look at the hole left side of a 03 Springfield action. It's to let gas escape with out harming the shooter. Shotguns don't have a good escape path because they operate at much lower pressure . Even so Puncture a primer gas will blow back in the action around the firing pin, whole case head lets go it's likely to come out between the barrels and action standing breech.

Not a risk I would take

William

[Paul Harm]

I think it would be real nice to shoot a couple of shells that came with the gun. It's not like you're ruining a $10,000 dollar gun. 80grs of 2F and some fiber wads with a 1oz load would be cool. Of course then there's some cleaning to do. Go for it.

[John Campbell]

I think it would be real nice to shoot a couple of shells that came with the gun. It's not like you're ruining a $10,000 dollar gun. .

Let's see... brass cases that have had 132 years to age-embrittle... and have probably been fired with corrosive primers to make them even worse.

Nothing to be concerned about.

But I wonder how much eye surgery costs?

[wayne goerres]

Track of the wolf brass with parker stamped on it is 7.00 a case. Magtech brass is 20.00 a box. Why risk an accident over $20.00 or damage over that small amount of money. Precision reloading (along with several other company's) has all the components you will need.

[Paul Harm]

Kensal, I've shot regular shells that after had split brass, split plastic, and everything stayed in the gun. If you're wearing shooting glasses, as everyone should, there would be little to worry about. Is it just the brass that " age-embrittles " - how about our steel barrels ? My old brass shells aren't crumbling in my fingers. JMHO

[Jay Oliver]

Thanks again for the replies, It is hard not to be tempted to try to shoot a couple at some point. I did have an empty case in the lot that was already primed, but empty.

I put the empty primed shell in the gun to see if the primer would fire and nothing. That would have made me feel sick if it was loaded...wondering what to do while you waited! Then I thought the primers in the tin may have been protected more over the years than this loose shell, so I primed one of the empty shells I cleaned and tried it out in the gun...again nothing. Tried a few times, even on both sides.

So there's my answer. Hearing that "click" on the primed shells really made me think of the safety issues if it had been loaded. If there was a different way to prime the shells this might be possible(the shells I cleaned didn't have an visible deformities or cracks). The Track of the Wolf shells are too nice and don't come with the anxiety and I am not going always shoot this gun with black powder.

I will clean the other shells as I think it would make a nice display. I put a picture below of when I first got the gun with all of the extras. I am not sure if you can tell from the picture but the 5 shells in the back row have power and a nitro card in them, who knows how long they have been sitting...I need to disassemble those).

I am glad I found a way to safely test this possibility, but I almost feel a little worse now that I know. For a few days I thought I had some original shells that had the possibility of being used...

Thanks,

Jay

[Erick Dorr]

Curious how did the primer strikes look. Were they light or deep?
Erick

[Jay Oliver]

I let the hammer fall 3-4 times on each one, this is what they looked like...

[Eric Johanen]

Nice stuff for collector's. I'd dispose of the powder in the can and keep it for a display or sell to a collector. Brass hulls, I'd clean and keep a few and give the rest away to friends or sell to collectors. WWII Remington and Winchester buckshot "guard" loads can still be found in unfired condition, disassemble and use the hulls. Unfired, un-primed hulls are also occasionally found and these are really nice to reload. I have 75 of these and they are all good for hunting purposes with black powder loads in vintage guns. Mag Tech are a possibility or Rocky Mountain Cartridge hulls are also good. Card and fiber wad stack sealed with DUCO cement works great. After washing, use a steel brush for copper tubing work to remove any glue residue and slightly roughen the inside of the hulls. Aids in the glued overshot card to be firmly held in place. Brass hulls and a vintage hammer gun +100 in style points! Unless you can locate a full length sizer die, after fire-forming they may work in only the gun they were fired in. I located a full length brass hull sizer die at a gun show years ago and it allows me to use my brass hulls in several different guns.

[Rick McKenzie]

If you've ever watched Antiques Roadshow, you'll note the appraisers almost always drive home the message "Leave it alone" when it comes to discussion of patina or the finish on an item. Serious collectors want untouched, original condition on most everything.

[Eric Johanen]

While that is true in many cases, with these I'd not be too worried about cleaning them up for display or sale. They do look very dirty and tarnished and if not cleaned they run the risk of further deterioration. They will take on a new patina and display nicely. Several I have that are no longer shootable due to age or case cracks are great for display and photographing with vintage doubles. These and the old paper hulls and loaded shells photograph very nicely.