Parker Time Capsule

[wally vernon]

I got this gun at the Louisville Show. I must say it has rekindled my passion for Parkers, which had waned for a while. I came across it ,and after I heard the story, I had to have it. This gun came into a gun shop in Atlanta a few weeks ago when the grandson of the owner traded it in on a handgun (hopefully got some money too). The grandson said he had no use for it as it was an old damascus gun and it didnt fit him anyway...

This old Parker still proudly sports almost all its original damascus pattern and it also had a letter written by someone who either borrowed it for use or repaired it in 1932. It also has a original Parker parts bag containing many parts for this gun. It is not a particularly valuable gun but a keeper.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/parkerdhe/parker2barrelset014.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/parkerdhe/parker2barrelset002.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

Will this gun letter with the sling eyes? It would be worth ordering a letter to see if you have found an original sling eye equipped Parker. The parts envelope is a neat item also.

[John Mazza]

Why can't I ever find guns like that ?

Congrats !!!!

[Ed Blake]

Very cool. Thanks for posting. What are the barrel lengths and what is the gist of the letter?

[Larry Frey]

Wally,
Very nice looking gun. I can't see the sling eye in your pic but as Bill said a letter would let you know if it came from the factory that way. The pic below is of a sling that letters to the gun.

[Dean Romig]

Also appears to have it's original two-barrel canvas and leather case. My 'custodial' Trojan when I was age 13 - 15 had it's original canvas case too and was very much like yours. Very nice - congratulations on a great find.

[Dave Suponski]

What a great find! I was recently shown a 16ga. VH 26" gun in the original canvas case with wooden cleaning rod and it's hang tag's.

[Mike Stahle]

Very very nice. :)
Do those old cases attach all together somehow?

[wally vernon]

The barrels are 26 and 30. The letter mentions one to be 32 but I think that is in error as the barrels appear to be original. I havent checked the book but was told it was not in it. I will get a letter asap.

The sling eyes date to at least prior to 1932 as the letter mentions one being taken off.

Both sets of barrels and forearms are serial numbered to the gun and are numbered "1" and "2"

Yes, the case is all connected in one piece, it is in poor condition, but it is all there.

It also has ejectors, which I think is cool for a damascus gun.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/parkerdhe/parker2barrelset010.jpg

I just couldnt believe someone would trade in their grandaddy's Parker.

[wally vernon]

This gun letters all the way!!! I had a "forum member" try to talk me out of the gun at a cheap price because he siad he had a letter on the gun and it was cut on both ends. I am not attempting to sell the gun but I want to post this letter so the "gentleman" can see what he aint getting!

BTW the letter confirms the sling swivels are original, the barrel lenghts are original as is the LOP and Silvers pad and even the oval engraving!!

Vindication.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/parkerdhe/parkerDHEletter001-1.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

That is one important gun to Parker collectors. It is the first we have "outed" with lettered sling swivels. Please post pictures of the sling swivels, front and back. Thanks for keeping us abreast of the happenings on this gun. Don't reply to any of the private messages offering to buy your gun. Wait until you get my PM before you reply to the others.

[Bill Murphy]

I looked up Mr. Byrnes in old teens era Interstate Association records and found that he did not shoot competitive trap from 1913 to 1922. However, you never know who you're going to find in these old records. In 1913, Augie Busch actually shot 200 Interstate Association targets and broke 127 of them. I wonder what kind of gun our Budweiser brewer shot? E. Anheuser also shot 200 targets that year and broke 184. A whole flock of shooters with St. Louis addresses shot 200 birds in 1913, so my assumption is that Augie sponsored a shoot for his employees and bought them all an Interstate Association membership. I would love to find a report on that shoot. How about it, Drew?

[Robin Lewis]

I think I remember another PGCA member saying he had a gun with swivels that lettered too.

[Bill Murphy]

I'm sure there are many, but have they written about them here or in the PP?

[Dean Romig]

Once again Wally, congratulations on a wonderful Parker.

[Drew Hause]

I'll work on Augie

The James W. Byrnes Belting & Hose Co. was in St. Louis, and "Col. James Byrnes" was active in Democratic (we're talkin' Mo. :rolleyes: ) politics in the 1920s.

[Bruce Day]

Was this a PGCA member or somebody lurking here who was lying to you?

The gun is right as rain and something to be proud of. I hope we have higher standards with PGCA members.

[Robin Lewis]

I read about it here on the forum. I had to search around for it and found it in the "Parker PH assessment" thread.

[Larry Frey]

Very nice gun Wally.

Robin you are correct. I have posted pics of this 20 gage that also letters with sling swivels. The first pic is shown on page one from the original posting. The screw that attaches the swivel would normally be screwed in completly and not visable from this angle.

[Bill Murphy]

Larry, can you post a picture of the letter? Apparently, early factory swivel guns have the European type mounting and swivel on the front, but, oddly, the receptacle for hooks on the rear. My DHE with swivels, which look factory to me but are too late for an order book entry, have European style swivels front and back. I can't figure out why the other two don't have either hook receptacles or European swivels on both ends.

[Larry Frey]

Bill,
I will scan and post the letter tomorrow at work. As for the swivels themselves I always thought the rear mount was just missing the swivel. I will try to attach the front swivel to the rear mount and let you know tomorrow if it fits.

[wally vernon]

Here is a pic of a swivel on one of the barrels. The pic is just a detail of a larger pic and as such, not of the greatest quality.

Also, as far as I know,the person who (falsely) claimed to have a letter on my gun is listed as a 'forum member" but he may be a PGCA member. I am not trying to start anything with him, so I will not name names. I just wanted to set the record straight on this wonderful piece of Parker history.

I am proud to be a member of this august group and have had the opportunity to meet a few of you at shows and even hunted once with Destry and his dad ( Fine gentlemen, btw). I really appreciate the kind words about this gun and the help you have given me in researching the original owner. I am in this for the history , beautiful guns, and the friends I have been able to make along the way.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/parkerdhe/swivels2.jpg

Here is the butt

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/parkerdhe/buttswivel.jpg

[Larry Frey]

Wally,
I find it interesting that your barrel attachment is of a somewhat different style than mine. Also my gun was built six years after yours yet the cost of the swivels dropped to $3.50. Do you have the original swivels?

[wally vernon]

What I have is what is shown. I assume you are asking if I have the "hooks" that go into the "eyes". If that is what you are asking, then no, I do not. I will say that the hook and eye sling swivels on old Winchesters look a lot like these.

[Larry Frey]

Yes Wally it was the hooks that I was referring to. I tried the front hook on the rear mounting eye and it fit so I assume the gun came with two hooks. I need to find another one or will have to try to make a replacement.

Bill,
The letter for the pictured gun is shown below.

[Austin W Hogan]

Larry ; real oil finish is scarce on Parkers. Oil finishes were time consuming but are really a superior finish with the final coats rubbed out with rottenstone to produce that egg shell sheen.

Best, Austin

[Bill Murphy]

The Winchester style hooks that Wally is referring to and which I referred to are not of the style that Larry pictures. I have the style that Larry pictures on my 32" DHE, but I think the Winchester hooks may also fit. The Winchester hooks are much more convenient on a shotgun because they are "quick detachable" unlike the European style swivels that are not easily detachable. Thank you both for posting the letters for your great guns.

[Larry Frey]

Larry ; real oil finish is scarce on Parkers. Oil finishes were time consuming but are really a superior finish with the final coats rubbed out with rottenstone to produce that egg shell sheen.

Best, Austin

Austin,
I find it interesting that Parker Brothers would take the time and expense and offer the oil finish without an extra charge. Also it still amazes me that ejectors cost an additional 25% of the cost of the entire gun.

[Dean Romig]

I'm not surprised at all that ejectors for a Parker are priced so high. Consider the fact that an entirely different forend assembly is required with so many extra parts fitted and timed perfectly to the gun as well as the doll's head with milled guide grooves and the mortised stop plate being necessary to the operation of the ejectors. Also required are the holes drilled in the front of the frame along with the addition of perfectly fitted rods which protrude from the holes in the frame to trip the ejector mechanism in the forend when the gun is fired. It's really quite an elaborate system.

[Larry Frey]

Dean I agree that it's an elaborate system but the extra parts involved easily fit into the palm of your hand. Also a couple extra holes or milled slots in a part that is already fixtured to be machined does not amount to very much as compared to the materials and labor involved in the manufacture of the entire gun.

[Christopher Lien]

This gun letters all the way!!! I had a "forum member" try to talk me out of the gun at a cheap price because he siad he had a letter on the gun and it was cut on both ends. I am not attempting to sell the gun but I want to post this letter so the "gentleman" can see what he aint getting!

Also, as far as I know, the person who (falsely) claimed to have a letter on my gun is listed as a 'forum member" but he may be a PGCA member.

I really appreciate the kind words about this gun and the help you have given me in researching the original owner. I am in this for the history, beautiful guns, and the friends I have been able to make along the way.
__________________________________________

Wally, Interesting and Sad that someone here claimed to have a "letter" and information on your Parker that diminished it's originality, which was then followed by a Low-Ball offer to buy it from you.... Unfortunately yours is not an isolated incident, I've also experienced this first hand, and have spoken to several others here with similar accounts of someone who claimed to have certain (misleading & false) Parker information in a dishonest attempt to buy their guns on the cheap...

On a brighter note, you certainly have found a great 2-barrel set with some outstanding history... Please keep us updated on any further provenance you might discover on James W. Byrnes in the future... You mentioned earlier that you were "in this for the history"..... The campaign photo image below indicates James W. Byrnes was a candidate for Mayor of St Louis in the early 1920's... Hope this helps put a face to the man who originally ordered your very unique DHE....

Best, CSL
__________________________
http://www.webpak.net/~dslcslien/1Byrnes1920s.jpg
.

[Austin W Hogan]

I think I remember a James Byrne who was an often cited cabinet member during World War II.

Best, Austin

[Bill Murphy]

Dean and Larry, I remember a conversation I had with Larry Del Grego Sr. in 1972, (summarized in the letter he sent to estimate the job) when I had asked him to install ejectors in my VH 28 gauge. He said he would do it, but wouldn't recommend it or like it. He did reluctantly quote me a price. Not too much later, as I recall, the Del Grego firm started refusing such work. Some think it was because of the scarcity of parts. I suspect it may have been because of the difficulty of drilling the holes in the front of the receiver. Ruin one A Grade receiver and it takes all your profit away from the last fifty jobs.

[wally vernon]

Thanks for your research on James W Byrnes. The campaign button really gives me inspiration to think there must be a good deal of info on the guy. Unforunately, he is not the guy in the cabinet. Harry Truman had a "James F. Byrnes" from South Carolina on his cabinet. He could be related, though. Also "google" turns up some "Byrnes" people in St louis and elsewhere, so his decendants are probably around.

This is the fun part, maybe I'll find enough to write an article about James Byrnes and the gun.

[David Hamilton]

Austin, That Jimmy Byrnes was from South Carolina. Perhaps they are related. David

[Larry Frey]

Dean and Larry, I remember a conversation I had with Larry Del Grego Sr. in 1972, (summarized in the letter he sent to estimate the job) when I had asked him to install ejectors in my VH 28 gauge. He said he would do it, but wouldn't recommend it or like it. He did reluctantly quote me a price. Not too much later, as I recall, the Del Grego firm started refusing such work. Some think it was because of the scarcity of parts. I suspect it may have been because of the difficulty of drilling the holes in the front of the receiver. Ruin one A Grade receiver and it takes all your profit away from the last fifty jobs.

Bill,
You are correct, the Del Grego's do have the original PB jig/fixture for adding the ejector holes in nonejector frames. I recall them showing it to me years ago. I was there with 108776 which was a little early for ejectors yet the gun had them installed. I was told they were definetly done at the factory as determined by the hole locations that matched the jig and were somewhat different than on an original ejector gun. It's my belief the frames must have been annealed, drilled, and rehardened as I don't think the ability to machine hardened steel in the early 1900's was what it is today although I have no proof of that. Perhaps Austin would have some information regarding the process used to add ejectors to a gun.

[George Lander]

Wally: James F. "Jimmy" Byrnes was a former Governor of South Carolina. Before that he was Secretary of State under President Truman although he had switched parties from Democrat to Republican when he refused to join the Ku Klux Klan. He was an intimate friend and hunting partner of Bernard Baruch at Hobcaw Barony near Georgetown, South Carolina. You have a beautiful and valuable Parker. You should order a letter on it and track down it's history.

Best Regards, George

[Bill Murphy]

George, "hegotim" a letter. It is available for your viewing pleasure on this thread.

[George Lander]

Thanks Bill: I didn't look at the first page of the thread. This is a neat gun. I wonder how may Parkers would letter as two barrel sets?

Best Regards, George

[Bill Murphy]

George, I have a DH #3 frame two barrel Damascus set very similar to Wally's gun that letters. It is one big gun. I have the front half of an 1897 CH two barrel Bernard set that letters to a dealer in Charleston. Thanks to John Davis, it is now mated up with a very nice DH skeleton butt back end. Those are the only lettered two barrel sets I have owned.

[Austin W Hogan]

Larry; Babe and Lawrence showed me the ejector drilling jig. They also told me they had worked on a 5 digit s/n gun that was drilled with the manufacturing jig, not the retrofit jig.

George; I once had four two barrel sets; grades 1,2,3,4. I am not sure what you consider as "lettering". Two were ordered as two barrel sets, and two had second barrel sets fitted a short time after delivery. One is a one gauge, two steel match weight set; one is a one steel two gauge match weight set, one a two gauge, two steel upland and waterfowl set, and the newest a one steel, one gauge upland and waterfowl set.

Best, Austin

[Mark Conrad]

Walley, nice find on this interesting gun. He could have spent another $50.00 and had two guns. Guns ordered as two barrel sets are on the rare side.

Mark

[Francis Morin]

James Byrnes was indeed a Gentleman of the great Palmetto State, and refused endorsement by the KKK- this was back in the era of the "Yellow Dog Democrats"--and when tacit endorsement by the "Three Circles Interlocked"- from Kuklos, the Greek word for circle- insured re-election. I didn't know he was a guest at Hobcaw Barony- as was the late Tar Heel Stater Robert C. Ruark, who also shot "buuurds" with Mr. Baruch--

In Ruark's story about that, he mentions Baruch shooting a well worn but fine grade 16 bore double- George, do you have any idea what make a grade double might have been Baruch's pet quail gun??

Just as FDR's Veep- James N. Garner once said, when asked what it was like to be a V-P, and gave a straight-forward reply alluding to a bucket full of lukewarm spit, a reporter once asked Harry Truman for some advice, and Harry said "Never kick a fresh dog turd on a hot summer's day"-- Our Country needs straight talking politicos and elected officials instead of a "Disney on the Potomac Chiefed by the Double-Tongued"!:cuss::cuss::eek:

[George Lander]

Francis: My favorite quotation from the man my dad called "Jimmy", James F. Byrnes, is:
"Too many people these days are concerned with SECURITY instead of OPPORTUNITY. It seems folks are woried more about LIVING than the are of DYING". I don't know what the gun was that he hunted with, but I know that he Bird Hunted (bob white quail) with Havilah Babcock and ducks & marsh hens with Bernard Baruch. If I had to guess I would say that it was either a Parker or a Fox.

[Kevin McCormack]

The Parker automatic ejector is a needlessly complicated system with way too many parts that need to be in precise adjustment to funcion properly. (No wonder it added over 25% to the price of a new gun!). If you want to see a really ingenious and simple, also utterly reliable auto ejector design, examine the drawings of the Holland & Holland and Boss ejector systems. The H&H system is rediculously simple with very few moving parts, and the Boss system is a masterpiece of gun engineering, inclluding a mid-position detent that elevates unfired cartridges way out of the gun for easy removal if desired. The H&H system is to the Parker system what Elmer Miller's single trigger design is to the first generation Parker single trigger design. Owning and trying to shoot a Parker with a bad ejector train (or a malfunctioning single trigger) is like owning and trying to drive a bad-running vintage Jaguar - the worst is yet to come.

[Robert Delk]

I like the analogy.My buddy just inherited a 54 Jag.

[David Hamilton]

I owned a 54 jag XK120M Fixed Head Coupe back in the 50's and the need for a good Jag mechanic was always in my mind. However there were good Jag mechanics and they kept mine running very well. There are good Parker mechanics who can keep an ejector running well, in spite of Kevin's skepticism. David

[Bill Murphy]

A hunting friend built a 1954 XK120 for his son who was approaching driving age several years ago. He had obtained it from an old gal who had installed real leopard skin seat covers and a few other sacrilegious modifications. My friend tossed the Jag engine and installed a hot 289 Ford engine and transmission. I have no idea where that car is today, but I bet it is still running.

[George Lander]

Austin: I see your point. There are two types of two barrel sets. Those originally ordered with the second barrel and those sent back to Parker for an additional set. Both types are mentioned in Mark Conrad's letters. I have a couple of each kind.

I had an XJ12 and always thought I need another one. One to drive while the other was in the shop. Bill, a friend of mine did the same with his XK 120 but with an engine out of a wrecked corvette (his uncle owned the junkyard) That one was a real bomb. Nothing around here could come close to touching it.

Best Regards, George

[David Hamilton]

They were cars with there own strengths and faults. One large fault shared with many other sports cars of the era was that they were front end heavy. A lighter weight engine would be a boon. David

[Dave Suponski]

Actually George there is alway's the third option...Barrels added by a gunsmith along the way. Not really a two barrel set just a gun with an extra set of barrels.

A Jag with a Corvette motor...that sounds like fun...here we go again..:rolleyes:

[Russ Jackson]

Donald Healey ,tried to correct the problem with aluminum surrounds ,but the front was still " barrel heavy " !

[Kevin McCormack]

Hmmmm...Jag with a Corvette motor....ever hear of a Lister Corvette? They used to race them near here at the Marlboro Motor Speedway in the late 1950s-early '60s. Once a month beginning in April the NSCCA would have qualifying races for mostly (then) amatuer drivers who could race anything they could keep on the track. Roger Penske would drive down from Media PA with a snappy little Porsche 550 on a trailer, and another guy from Bala Cynwyd PA would drive down a Ferrari California, change the rear end in the pits, race it all weekend, and change out the rear for the trip home on Sunday evening. A local dentist, Dick Thompson, was a Corvette fanatic and showed up one weekend with a Lister Corvette - sort of a cross between an Allard and an AC Bristol body with beefed up suspension and a massive 427 Corvette engine. Guys like Penske and the Ferrari driver would always beat Thompson into the corners, cutting inside him at the last minute and diving into the turns to overtake him. When they came out of the corners, nothing could stay with that Lister Corvette - the acceleration was something you had to see to believe. Best times were the late Fall semi-final races - nothing like coming home to homework on Sunday evening reeking of Castrol and burnt rubber! Those were the days - Now its Hoppes No.9 and burnt 700X - not a bad trade!

PS - The guy at the head of the block just put his 1954 Corvette roadster out in the front yard with a big "4 Sale" sign on it. Completely restored to new. Asking $68K for it -hell, you can't even buy a AAHE 28 ga. for that kind of money!! (Well, maybe a nice Del Grego restoration.....).

[Dave Suponski]

Thanks Kevin. A 54 Corvette! That would have the "Blue Flame 6 cylinder in it. With three carbs and I think a three speed trans.They didn,t come out with the 265 V-8 until 55. What a great car..very sexy

[Bill Murphy]

Dave, you are proving how young you are. We fifties types know that a '54 Corvette was only available with a two speed Powerglide. I understand that the Powerglide platform is used for some serious racing, but I have no idea how they do it.

[Dave Suponski]

Wow, Your kidding right? You couldn,t get a standard trans in a 54 Corvette? I learned something new today thanks Bill..:)


Ok, Now I got it.I just googled the 54 Corvette. The 3 speed wasn,t available until late in 55 coupled to that monster 265..

[E Robert Fabian]

The slip and slide Power Glide.

[Dave Suponski]

Bob, Thats how I think of,em too. But they are using some awesome version now in drag racing...:shock:

[George Lander]

The biggest problem with the Jags of the 70's & 80's was the Lucas electronics. Once Ford bought the company the car was a lot more dependable although it lost a lot of it's styling IMO. Are the works at Coventry still in use?

[John Dallas]

Front end heavy? You don't know from front end heavy until you competed (as I did) in hill climbs against a guy who had put a 389 Pontiac into an Austin Healy. Radiator was mounted out front on the bumper brackets. What an abomination

[Dean Romig]

Lucas - HA!! As I recall, that's why the British enjoy warm beer.... they all own Lucas refrigerators :biglaugh:

One of the only two cars I ever lost to with my GTO in my street racing days was a Chevy-Healy, a 327 'vette engine with the original Rochester fuel-injection setup. I don't know what he had for gears but as my 389 with trips was giving it all it had his taillights just kept getting closer and closer together....

[George Lander]

Didn't the Afrons Brothers put something like a Rolls Royce aircraft engine in a tiny little car? I subscribed to "Hot Rod" mag back in the 50's. I wish that I still had them.