Why is the attendance at SxS events down?

[Craig Larter]

It seems to me that the attendance at the SxS events I attend have been steadily gone down the last few years. I realize the scheduling conflict this last weekend played a role but many regulars did not attend either event. My take is a couple of issues. The events have become more focused on competitive events over the years in my opinion. That is great if you are a top shooter but most are not. The same 5 or 6 guys compete and the rest sit and cheer our favorite manufacturer. I think many average shooters don't want to spend $1.00 per target knowing they will never qualify. I think a not for score rate with self pulled targets for the first day would encourage more shooter/attendees to participate. Fewer competitive events/classes/gauges/gun styles would make the remaining events more important.
I would also like to see some new guns displayed by the Collector Associations. The same guys keep displaying their guns event after event. How about a display of fresh guns from an individual collector by association and a vote by all attendee's of the best display across all the Collector Associations.
Four day events are way too long for most folks and the cost becomes prohibitive for folks traveling. I think 2 day events would be better for vendors and most traveling shooters.
What say you????

[Brian Dudley]

Getting this late in the year, hunting seasons or saving time to take later hunting trips may be playing a big role. I know that is what stops a lot of people from going to the fall southern.

[Daryl Corona]

I think you pretty much nailed it Craig. I think a four day shoot is stretching things a bit for most shooters, three days max. A hunters class should be set up for shooters who want to shoot but not compete against the top dogs who are master class shooters. Trying to have 10, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32 and .410 events, in my opinion, is not really needed. 10,12,16=big bore. 20, 24,28, 32,.410=smallbore. Keep it simple. Mike set up some great targets. All in my opinion were breakable with a 28 ga. So just set up one course, start handicapping from 20 ga. down and make it a 100 target event. Make the entry fee reasonable, most courses I shoot are from $35-$40, and if you want to compete against the big guys have a money option or a lewis class.

I know I go to these events for the friends I have made through the years and to look at all the bling. I can shoot much cheaper around here but seeing all the guys and gals is the main reason I attend. I'll support Mike at the Rock because he makes me feel as if I'm a friend and not just another shooter. That's the main reason I stopped attending the vintage cup.

[Rich Anderson]

The bottom line is it's expensive. The weekend at The Rock with travel, hotel, food and shooting would have run close to a grand and as I'm leaving for Wyoming Thursday it just wasn't in the cards. Next year I plan on going. I think three days is plenty of time to burn powder and reconnect with the guys you saw at the last shoot.

Timing always plays a part in the attendance. as mentioned previously the Fall Southern is well it's in the fall during the peak of Grouse season here and birds win out over targets, The Rock is on the cusp of bird season but it's still early enough that it doesn't really interfere.

I agree with Craig that most of us attend these events for the fun of attending and not as serious competitors. If there was a way to shoot and enjoy the camaraderie but not for score at a lesser cost more targets might get thrown. A Lewis class system would even things out some as well.

A person can only do so many shoots/trips in a given year unfortunately. :banghead:

[Josh Loewensteiner]

Just look at the sheer number of shoots. 18 or so years ago when the Vintage cup started, it was the only game in town. Now you can do one of these types of events probably 20+ weekends a year.

[John Campbell]

Like many things in modern life, SxS events tend to get caught up in their own minutia. Like scores, gauge classes, special manufacturer events and displays, association displays and shoots, etc.

While there is nothing inherently wrong with these, too little regard is given to FUN. In my view, more low-pressure FUN should be the object of shooting events rather than "scores."

What's more, the SxS community is based largely on age-based intangibles. Like tradition, style, sentimentality, history, appreciation of art and craft... not to mention civility and honor. These elements are in decline these days. And often superseded by competition, structure and complexity of event elements.

And finally, there is AGE. Just look at the fellows who attend these events. They are aging Baby Boomers. And year by year, more of them pass into the Great Shoot in The Sky. And they aren't being replaced.

So, if there is one key void in the SxS crowd it is youth. And by that I mean most anyone under 50. The same is true with most any worthy "gun show" today. Look around. Mostly geezers. And they want to SELL guns. Not buy them.

Combine this with the few remaining Fall seasons left to us Boomers and you get declining attendance.

Just my two cents worth (and possibly over-priced)...

[Dave Noreen]

I hate to mention it, but the group is aging. When I attended my first Vintage Cup at Orvis Sandanona, in 1999, I was 53. Now I'm 70. I don't think the young guys coming in are equaling the old guys passing on.

[Mills Morrison]

I predict you will see some younger guys coming in. My collecting and participation in shooting events would be much greater if it were not for raising (and paying for) my kids and family. I think a lot of folks in my generation are in the same boat. The Great Recession didn't help things either.

[Frank Srebro]

Just my two cents: I’ve seen these vintage shoots evolve over recent years as more and more NSCA Master and AA class shooters are getting older and less competitive against younger shooters with better eyesight and reflexes. I know many such gents who I used to see at registered tournaments and now are mainly doing SxS shoots; and let's face it, the average Tom, Dick & Harry SxS shooter is going to get his clock cleaned on any of the gauge venues unless he has a very good day and the top shelf shooters have bad ones. I think Craig’s questions are good ones. Why set up a vintage SxS event for those few top level shooters? It seems the majority of SxS shooters are hunters, casual shooters and collectors, and at any given event they will be shooting multiple guns with different stock dimensions and weights. And despite trying to do well when shooting their pet guns along with friends - it's usually at the tail end of the course when they “get into” that particular gun. The same thing happens over again at the next gauge event and with a different gun. $1.00 per target for this majority is way too much. I understand that scorers must be paid and that, in part, adds to what the club must charge for targets. Another cost factor that comes into play at times is that the club may have rented extra traps from firms in that business.

Although I’ve balked at it in the past I think that having a named “scorer” who is also a shooter on each squad, is the way to go. That concept includes having at least four or five shooters per squad, and not all from the same family group. Of course there will still be some cheating by guys who just have to come in with a good score no matter what, but it will be minimized. That would eliminate the expense of paid scorekeepers and if the club hasn’t rented extra traps for the event, the cost/target might be just a nominal increase over the regular rate that applies before or after the SxS event. That increase would pay for the admin expenses of advertising, soliciting vendors, arranging for food, keeping track of the scores, posting, etc. Also for the extra roving help on event days to get broken traps cleared or fixed in a hurry to avoid backups. The club is of course in business and must make a decent profit, and that should happen due to the larger number of shooters drawn to the event to reconnect with and shoot multiple rounds with friends, and to sell/trade/buy with good SxS oriented vendors who have paid for tables.

I also think the club should offer a separate SxS venue for those top shelf shooters who want to participate, that’s scored by referees who have taken the NSCA test. That can be something like a Make a Break, Long Range birds or a tournament style 5-stand. Here those shooters will pay a higher rate/target for those dedicated traps and the scorekeepers. This can include a purse to be paid out to winners.

All told, these are personal thoughts and I certainly value others. We’re all in this together. But like Craig, I am alarmed when I know of many SxS shooters within a few hours of a vintage venue who can easily make a day trip to same but choose not to come. frank

[Bill Murphy]

I think a major part of the problem this year was the conflict between two major side by side shoots. Mike's venue is not familiar to all side by side shooters on the east coast. Hopefully, shooters will become more familiar with "The Rock", and the Vintagers group will be more friendly in their scheduling. I am laid up with several back surgeries or I would have attended Mike's shoot. I hope he did well without my attendance.

[Eric Eis]

Well said Frank, I go to the shoots to have fun, I will never make it in the top ten and I don't care. I shoot some guns that at 14" lop and others that are 15'lop because I want to shoot all of my guns pistol grip, English, POW don't care I want to shoot them all.... Most of the times we don't even take a score sheet we are just shooting and having a great time!

Now the timing that is a problem, you start getting into mid Sept and you are hitting hunting season in many of the northern states, so this is a major problem. Also when two great shoots post their shoots on the same weekend, knowing full well they are dividing a very small group of SXS shooters, plus dividing the vendors and making them choose which shoot, this is where egos are coming into play and this must Stop. For the sake of SxS shooting this ego thing has got to go, discuss it privately and setup your shoots so everyone has a chance to go, shooters and vendors to both of the shoots not just one :cuss: Ok that was my rant and now I'll shut up :rolleyes:

[Rich Anderson]

I don't know if the target prices are really that out of line but it's not inexpensive either. When I was shooting registered skeet it was $35 per 100 targets (or more depending on the venue) plus purse fees per gauge and that was almost 15 years ago. I stopped shooting registered birds due to the fact that IMHO there were to many shooters who would drop a bird or two to get into a class where they could win money.

Look at the Parker/Smith challenge it seems to me it has become more about winning and less about the fun. it's the same people for the most part competing every year. Years ago I mentioned that it would be nice to have teams made up of different classed shooters to make it more fun, and fair to everyone who wanted to try to make a team.

Lets put the fun back in these shoots. One of the nicest things about shooting at Drake's Landing is we are all out for the same thing...a good time with friends. As Eric mentioned most times there are no score cards involved, you don't need a score sheet to tell you if you have had a good round or not.

[Gary Laudermilch]

I'm usually pretty reluctant to comment on this sort of thing because it is too easy to offend someone. I pretty much agree with the comments made thus far. Do away with the score keepers, prizes, etc. Just have fun at reasonable cost. I can afford $1 per target but refuse to pay it out of principal. I know at least 5 guys that would love to shoot but will not for the same reason. Far too much emphasis on competition.

[edgarspencer]

Am I the only one who sees the white elephant in the room?

I have been to Hausmann's three or four times, and have been to maybe twice that many Vintagers events.

I have had to miss out on going to Rock Mountain twice because of some G-D ailment, it flat out pisses me off. From what everyone has said, RM is much like Ernie's, in the fun department, and Vintagers, not so much.

Never one to shy away from pissing someone off, to speak my mind, I'll continue my winning ways; Vintagers events are too much "Look at Me" in a snobbish way.

[James L. Martin]

I must say that I agree with most of the comments, I have been to most of the Vintagers, many Hausmanns , and the last two at the Rock. Four days is too much and there are way too many events , how many shoot 24 & 32ga ? , why is there a hammer and hammerless in each gage. One dollar a bird is too much. I would just like to shoot my old guns and have fun for a reasonable cost.

[Craig Larter]

The Vintage Cup had 30 events just for shotguns!!!!!

[Rich Anderson]

I would just like to shoot my old guns and have fun for a reasonable cost.

Jim come shoot with us at Drakes Landing in April during the Southern. Lots of shooting, lots of camaraderie and reasonable target costs and the best bunch of people both shooters and the staff of Drakes. You won't be sorry I guarantee it:)

[John Campbell]

... Lots of shooting, lots of camaraderie and reasonable target costs and the best bunch of people both shooters and the staff of Drakes. You won't be sorry I guarantee it:)

Hmmmm. Sounds a lot like "fun" to me!

(NO slight against The Spring Southern, one of my "can't miss" events.)

[Eric Eis]

Hmmmm. Sounds a lot like "fun" to me!

(NO slight against The Spring Southern, one of my "can't miss" events.)

John, we don't miss the Southern either, shoot Drakes Thursday, Fri and Sat Morning and spend all of the rest of the time at Deep River seeing friends and vendors that we didn't see at Drakes, best of both worlds.

[Bill Kekatos]

Any SxS events in the Midwest? I live in Illinois and it seems most of the SxS events are in the east cost or southern states.
BillK

[Rick Losey]

I am sure the Michigan boys will entertain you. They would need to give their calendar

[Eric Eis]

Bill there is a great SxS shoot in Medford WI, it is always on Fathers Day weekend in June, great targets, great people just great fun. In July there is the Duluth shoot in MN that is a nice shoot and there is a new shoot that started this fall in MI in Petoskey that was suppose to have gone very well. I'm going to try and make that shoot next year.

[Bill Kekatos]

Thank you for the replies :)

[Paul Harm]

Here in Lower Michigan there's three shoots in April, May, and June at Freeland, Lapeer [ mine ] , and Grand Blank [ Flint area ]. All are one day shoots on a Saturday and don't cost more than $50 including food. Email me at bladesmith46@hotmail.com and I'll add you to our mailing list. A lot of the guys don't even turn in their scores, they just come to shoot and show off their guns and BS with one another. Oh, and eat a steak dinner.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I think it does put a lot of guys off that all the shooters who make the teams are essentially "ringers" anymore. I went the first several years and enjoyed it. But finally it started feeling like a rerun of exactly the same thing I'd done before, so I just stopped going.

I've suggested it before, and I'll suggest it again. Once you've been on the winning team twice, you should be officially retired from the competition. Give some other guys a chance, and keep it interesting. Heck if I had a vague chance of making the squad I might start going again, and I think other guys would too.

[Bill Murphy]

At the threat of running off some of the most interested attendees of the Parker vs L.C. Smith competition, I agree with Destry that two years in a row on the team is enough, and maybe after two years off, a competitor could shoot on the team one year again.

[Brian Dudley]

Maybe they should accept the top 5 and bottom 5 to make up the 10 person team. ???

[Mills Morrison]

This is an interesting thread from my perspective of running Parker's part of the Spring Southern.

For the Fall Southern, we take the top 5 shooters and then the top youth shooter, lady shooter, senior shooter, super senior shooter and then a random shooter from those in the qualifying round

[Brian Dudley]

^^ that is interesting ^^

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Yes it is.

Sadly it's in the fall when my time is spent shooting birds made from flesh rather than clay.

[Jerry Harlow]

Maybe they should accept the top 5 and bottom 5 to make up the 10 person team. ???

Can we say "Sandbaggers?"

[Bruce Day]

If you guys are concerned about team line up being too restrictive, why not do a drawing of participants to create the make shooting team?

[Eric Eis]

If you guys are concerned about team line up being too restrictive, why not do a drawing of participants to create the make shooting team?

Bruce, that has been brought up before, along with doing a Lewis class with a couple of shooters from each group plus a teenager shooter and that was turned down too. So the shooters that want to shoot for fun (as we know we won't make the squad) shoot at Drakes Landing and then we come back on Sat to watch the competition. We have a great time like we use to at the very earlier challenges when it was just for fun,( now it's not in my opinion, but that's me) so it is what it is.

[David Dwyer]

When we set up the Fall Southern we wanted it to be fun, not a repeat of the spring"top gun" guys. Initially The Elsie shooters were very upset at the squading but after the first year really liked it.(even though Parker won!) We made it fun! I suggested we start modifying the spring event and that went nowhere. I made the Parker Team in 2015 but did not even try in 2016-not fun. Life is not all about winning JMHO
David
David

[David Dwyer]

This is a timely and informative post for me. I will move to Johnson City TN sometime soon. There is not a sporting clays venue near there so my wife suggested I start one. Not sure that is a great idea after reading all these posts.
David

[Dean Romig]

Go for it David. You can always file Chapter 11 if it doesn't work out. Look at the Donald - he did it and he doesn't seem to be hurting......:eek:






.

[Rick Losey]

This is a timely and informative post for me. I will move to Johnson City TN sometime soon. There is not a sporting clays venue near there so my wife suggested I start one. Not sure that is a great idea after reading all these posts.
David

there is a difference between a venue - shooting facility/club

and a specialty shoot at a club which is what i see as the topic here

[Eric Eis]

David,
Go for it, you do it right and the people will come, hell look what we did for Drakes Landing and that was a few malcontents upset with Deep River, no advertising just word of mouth and now what do we have 75 or 80 shooters and we are not putting on any "event" just fun shooting which is something I think some of these promoters have forgotten about. Both Rich and I have said if we could only go to one shoot it would be the one in Medford WI, the Great Northern, not because of the vendors as they don't have the pull of the larger shoots but because everyone has fun, the shooters, the organizers the volunteers we all have fun just like at Drakes. Run it that way and the people will come.

[Mills Morrison]

We'll come shoot your course. I bet you could make a great one in the mountains up there

[William Davis]

Lot of reasons to attend events. Gauge specific preliminarys, main event , side events like pump guns or trap guns, Parker Smith Challenge. Collectors displays, vendors, meeting up with old friends. Shooting nearby clubs for fun. May be even more. I can't do it all but don't have any problem with somebody focusing on their favorite. All the choices are a good thing, something for everybody .

William

[John Liles]

This is an interesting thread from my perspective of running Parker's part of the Spring Southern.

For the Fall Southern, we take the top 5 shooters and then the top youth shooter, lady shooter, senior shooter, super senior shooter and then a random shooter from those in the qualifying round

I hear ya Mills, as the same guy for the LC Smith team in the Fall. I've been associated with the Southern SXS events since I picked up my first shotgun of any flavor about ten years ago. Maybe I've not been paying attention, (not very likely) but I've never seen many of this threads posters at a single one of these shoots since I've been going. As for the same guns from the same folks for displays at the Southern, I've been tasked with that very thing for the last several years, and while it might not be fashionable for those of the one ilk to peruse the display of the other ilk, if they had they'd see that for at least the last couple of years(and for the foreseeable future if I have my way) we're showing average members guns with other than average characteristics. Hell, our shining star last spring was a beat-up, low grade Market Hunters gun complete with pictures of the original owner and the gun in front of rafts of hanging ducks waiting for rail transport to market. Included with the gun was also a picture of the current owner, (grand child if I recall correctly) in a darn diaper, sitting on the floor with the gun in the foreground. Pretty darn cool in my way of seeing things and pretty far removed from the dynamic pitched earlier in this thread.
The way I see things, feel good, everybody gets a trophy, the hell with scores, is great for those who don't spend the time to get good enough to be competitive, or whose skill level in their mind is directly tied to their ability to write a check for a gun that most could never afford.
I'll shut up in just a second.
Some folks are primarily collectors, and some folks are primarily shooters. Some folks are primarily BOTH.
Those that primarily collect, will always be happy to just show off their guns, and curse the wind, target setter, or solar anomaly that caused them to miss entirely too many targets today.
The primarily shooter contingent will always take these competitions too seriously, and dream all year of beating those rapscallions that bested them the last time out. (count me in on this category!)
Those that collect and shoot, and I'll not mention any names from either Team Parker or Team Smith, are the ones that love the guns, shoot for score, and look forward to the next outing whether they won or lost the last outing.
Sorry, as I know that I've pissed some folks off with my thoughts, and if I get banished...oh well.
Hope to see the rest of Team Parker at either the Fall Southern in a couple of weeks, or in Sanford in the Spring.
John

[Mills Morrison]

Well said, John. There will be a great display of Parker 28 gauges at the Fall Southern this year that most, if not all, fall into the "never seen before and maybe never seen again" category. It will be a great time and you are missing something if you don't come on down.

[John Liles]

Hey there Mills, ya just had to go there didn't ya! I tell ya what, you gather up as many 28 ga Parkers as you can find, and I'll gather up all the 28 ga Elsies that I can find.....and the team with the fewest 28 gauges WINS! Ha!:)
See you in Georgetown, and prayers for those that live there in light of the storm churning that way as of this writing.
John

[Bill Graham]

My collecting and participation in shooting events would be much greater if it were not for raising (and paying for) my kids and family. I think a lot of folks in my generation are in the same boat.
Certainly in the same boat. We've got two kids, and one income. At 50 I'm not a collector but a fix-r-upper. The Southern SxS is local to me, and I love going, but generally can't afford much of anything there, and only shoot one class due to the cost. Looking forward to shooting more in general, and engaging more in the double gun culture as resources allow.

[Bill Graham]

Look at the Parker/Smith challenge it seems to me it has become more about winning and less about the fun. it's the same people for the most part competing every year. Years ago I mentioned that it would be nice to have teams made up of different classed shooters to make it more fun, and fair to everyone who wanted to try to make a team.
I think this is a great idea. I was test firing my basket case Parker yesterday and was wondering how a person could get on the team. Recognizing that I'm not likely to be good enough, the idea of a team being comprised of various skill levels sounds collaborative and fun, and also a good way for newer shooters to learn from the experienced ones.