Bismuth Duck Loads

[Kirk Mckinney]

Gentlemen

I wanted to see what you guys with years of experience with hunting loads think about my ideal. I am shooting a 1929 Sterlingworth 2 1/2 in shells. I have a 7/8 oz load that I shoot skeet with. If I loaded the same load with Bismuth do you think it would work well with Ducks over Decoys ? Do you think 7/8 load is enough of 4 or 5 shot? If the velocity is around 1150 to 1200 fps. I would say probably all my shots would be 35 yards or less. 45 max..... what do yall think.
If this will work I would only have about 6200 - 7000 psi.

Thanks in advance for any insight anyone might have.
See you in the fields!

[Harry Collins]

Your Fox is a stout old gun. I would not hesitate to shoot 1 1/8 oz loads through it. Check out RST's non-tox loads. My father took ducks with a 20 gauge Trojan imp cylinder and mod back in the 30's using modest 7/8 oz loads, but I think he waited to smell their breath before he shot.

[Rick Losey]

If you are just substituting bismuth for lead


How do you know what the pressure will be?

Have they been tested

[Kirk Mckinney]

Yes I wait till there close too. About a foot over the decoys is good for me. Lol I don't miss much like that I'm shooting 30in full and full. No I hadn't had them tested. Although I think I would. I like to know where I'm at.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Over at precision Keith told me he had a load of 1 oz of bismuth that tested at 8400. I think that was what he said. It was for 2 1/2 in 12 gauge also

[Kirk Mckinney]

I have 4 boxes of rst bismuth. But you never know when this stuff goes extinct. Lol

[Rick Losey]

Rio and Kent are currently loading Bismuth

[Kirk Mckinney]

Are they loading 2 1/2 in 12 gauge

[Rick Losey]

Are they loading 2 1/2 in 12 gauge

No.

[Frank Srebro]

I can't help with a 7/8 ounce loading for bismuth, but 7/8 ounce is a light load for a 12-gauge and bismuth is only about 80% as dense as lead shot and thus will bleed off speed way more rapidly after it leaves the muzzle. Also, of course we are all sportsmen with our SxS's and go out with intentions of only taking shorter decoyed shots, but who can resist a flock of greenheads that flare away at 50 yards or so after a long morning with no action in the blind?

I often write about the use of lower velocity/lighter shot loadings on game animals and how that can inflict shallow wounds and result in cripples when the scene isn't just right or the range stretches out. This was driven home to me after processing grouse and pheasants taken with so-called low pressure factory shells marketed to gents who want same to "be kind" to their vintage guns with old dry wood etc. So you have a box of specialty shells that's supposed to be 1125 or 1150 or even 1200 fps. How do you know that? Have you checked with a shotgun chronograph to verify that speed? Same as you checked the mpg rating on your new vehicle's window sticker versus what you actually get on the road? Do we ever wonder why those vintager-type shells are mild to shoot? Magic dust in the powder? Sure these low pressure factory shells will break clays, and gents will often say how this or that vintager shell will absolutely crush targets, but how many reports have we seen on deep penetration into the vitals of game animals? I for one have seen relatively shallow penetration when such shells are used at moderate to longer ranges.

Best advice I can give for hunting is to use enough gun for the game along with using enough good shot @ the regular speed for hunting loads as we used in our youth.

[Gary Laudermilch]

Well said, Frank. Heck, you can kill a grouse, duck, or whatever with a 410 under some circumstances. How many cripples occur when the shooter thinks he missed cleanly. Quite a few. Far to many folks measure shell performance based on clay target performance. Clays and live birds are to entirely different animals. I examine every grouse I shoot for pellet performance and there is no substitute for using enough gun and large enough shot. Leave your light and slow loads on the clays field. Hunting is all about the welfare of the resource.

[Kirk Mckinney]

I see what you are saying. But what do you consider enough shot and enough velocity?? I know that if I shoot 1 1/4 oz shot it won't make a bigger pattern to cover for those slightly off target shots. But what kind of velocity do you consider enough. I thought 1200 was enough for most hunting needs. As I am new to shotshell reloading I would like to hear what yalls thoughts are

[Frank Srebro]

1-1/4 ounce won't necessarily make a bigger pattern but it will make a denser one than 7/8 ounce, with more pellet strikes per bird at any given yardage. And pellet strikes and penetration are the name of the game. Now, compare those modern vintager-type low pressure loads for duck hunting with the common "High Brass" 12-gauge 1-1/4 ounce lead shot loads that I used when I was a kid, and still use today for heavier game when lead is allowed. They came in at about 1330 fps. And that period 12-gauge low brass field load with 1-1/8 ounce had about 1225 speed. Most duck hunters back then would load up with those high brass shells to cover any/all yardages, a no brainer. And old time small game hunters often had low and high brass shells in right and left barrels respectively. Nowadays I will think about those shot load and velocity parameters when choosing the gun and shells for whatever I'm hunting. And if I don't have a SxS that will handle such loads I'll relegate it to clays and choose another gun for hunting that will.


I know this will get some readers irritated but I just about get shivers whenever someone talks about how light shot charges will pattern way better and are just as good or even more effective than heavy ones, also about so-called square loads having some magic quality that makes them much superior to others in the same gauge but with a longer shot column. One last comment when comparing something like a 7/8 ounce load in 12-gauge to a 1-1/4 ounce one .... when the gun goes bang that extra 3/8 ounce has to go somewhere. Ha! :bigbye:

[Craig Larter]

7/8oz bismuth loads in any gauge have no place in duck hunting in my opinion. 1 1/4 oz loads do not make up for poor shooting. Ducks are a resource that should not be wasted and we should respect the resource with adequate loads and off season shooting practice. I have shot many hundreds of ducks with bismuth and I consider 1 1/8oz bismuth loads at 1200fps the minimum for ducks over decoys. Later in the season 1 1/4oz bismuth at 1200fps is the minimum. There are plenty of adequate bismuth published loads.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Lol. I like the one about the extra 3/8 of a ounce going somewhere. Lol. Good one. To make it clear I hadn't loaded any bismuth hunting loads. I was just trying to see what y'all thought it would take. I bought 4 boxes of bismuth from RST. I just checked them. They are 1 oz at 1200 fps. I think I remember reading somewhere that when they proofed these old sterlingworth barrels that they did it with 1 1/4 oz loads. I think that's right. I just don't no what pressure I can safely get it up to. no one in their right mind want to see wildlife get away crippled or maimed. Anyone know what is a safe psi for my gun ???

[Kirk Mckinney]

Right outside my back door. They nest in shrubs in our neighborhood 50182

[Kirk Mckinney]

I just found data for longshot powder with 7200 psi @ 1350 fps. And that's with 1 1/4 oz bismuth. That should be ok on my old gun. What do y'all think. It's on hodgdon site. It's for a 2 3/4 in but I'm sure I could find a way to get it into a 2 1/2. Any comments.

[Harry Collins]

Sherman Bell did a series of articles in Double Gun Journal called Finding Out For Myself. In one of these he shot cartridges longer than the chamber. i.e.: 2 3/4' shells in 2 1/2" chambers and continued on to shoot 3 1/2" shells out of 3" chambered guns. He even shot 3 1/2" shells out of a 2 3/4" chamber. The end result was that chamber pressures increased by a whopping 300 psi. He concluded that the pressure spike was negligible. I agree. I shoot 2 3/4" modern loads out of an 1881 Parker with Twist steel barrels that has 2 1/2" chambers without event and have done so for so long I no longer flinch at the thought of it. Your Fox is one of the good ones. Shoot the snot out of it with anything but steel shot.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Thanks guys for all the info. Looks like 1 1/4 oz is the way to go. I am curious as I have a bunch of fiber wads. Would it be ok to load bismuth with fiber wads. Does anyone know if it would damage the barrel with bismuth skidding down it . It would allow for more shot in a shell. Any thoughts anyone

[Craig Larter]

Kirk you seem to like to play reloading roulette, good luck and I hope your insurance man is not a forum member.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Well you lost me CL. Not sure what you mean. Do you think my gun shouldn't shoot these loads ?

[Rick Losey]

Kirk - I think the point was - similar to my first post, is that you are looking to assemble loads by conjecture rather than using proven recipes

there is tested bismuth loading data available that will list the components needed.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Oh. I see. I would never shoot any loads without having them tested first. Sorry about that. Yeah I wouldn't just guess at it. But I was thinking about loading 1 1/8 oz and 1 1/4 oz with fiber wads to send to precision to test. I found a longshot load for 2 3/4. My gun is chambered for 2 1/2. I know everyone says you can shoot 2 3/4 shells but I don't even want to risk that. But yeah I'm not near experienced enough to just start making loads and saying they are ok. Thanks for the clarification.

[Kirk Mckinney]

P.s. Maybe my lack of experience is why my questions seem kinda dumb. Can't learn if you don't ask. Thanks guys

[Kirk Mckinney]

I found this on another thread on this site....thought you guys might like it.
Here you go Kirk
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...vwLYc-kGA/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UOZEFU/preview

1914 A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalog recommended 12g loads (courtesy of David Noreen)
DuPont, “E.C.”, and “Schultze” Bulk Smokeless 3 Dram 1 1/8 oz.
Dense Infallible 20 - 24 grains with 1 1/8 oz. shot
Dense Ballistite 20 - 22 grains with 1 1/8 oz. shot

1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram Equivalent of BULK Smokeless was 6500 - 7500 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless was 8,500 - 10,000 psi.
__________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascuskn...e.com/www/home

[Kirk Mckinney]

Try this link....great read https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit

[Kirk Mckinney]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview

These are 2 very good articles. Great info for vintage gunners and barrels ,pressures.

[Eric Eis]

Rio and Kent are currently loading Bismuth

From what I am hearing the pressures are up near the top, that's just what I have heard. The only thing that I do know is that Kent emailed me back on their Bismuth 16's and said pressure was around 9000, which is not bad if you think you may shoot a couple of boxes a season and then go back to low pressure loads for clays.

[Rick Losey]

Thanks Eric

I asked Rio about pressure in their bismuth a couple times, they said they would get back to me. Still waiting

But. At least with me. - any factory non tox loads go through my 3 frame 12 or LC Smith long range

Short tens and damascus and twist barreled 12s get lighter reloads

[Kirk Mckinney]

Gentle I found this on a different form regarding trying to work up a low pressure load for Bismuth for my old fox.....

Responding to "Longshot Powder Problems". My name is Ron Reiber and I am the product manager at Hodgdon Powder Company. I casually watch posts that discuss powders that we manufacture, and try to rectify any misconceptions that occur regarding their use. Longshot was developed to be used primarily as a field powder for use in 28,20,16,12 and 10 gauge, and it is excellent in all those applications. Properly used for the long range target/back fence games, it works equally well.
However, this is America, and Americans always believe "more" is better. Not so in shotgun. When used towards the bottom end of the listings for 1 1/8 oz and 1 1/4 oz, pressures are moderate, peak time is long, and set-back of shot is minimal, which delivers excellent patterns. Truthfully, 1150 fps to 1250 fps gives ideal patterns with minimal fliers,and is my personal favorite loading range. Managing a ballistics laboratory for 36 years teaches you the nuances of shotshell loads, and what works best. Yes, 1 1/8oz loads of very slow burning powder are loud at the upper end because you are burning a great deal of slow burning powder, and that simply translates into LOUD. Why get the crap beat out of you if slower velocities pattern better?? Limiting what people use on those games is like having the left tell you that you must give up your guns. Use commons sense and ask those individuals to use lesser loads in their ammunition. They need to learn more about reloading, and what actually works to their benefit, and you as competitors need to insist they do just that!!
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Longshot Powder. Our nearest competitor realized the value in this fine product and made a copy called ProReach, just like they copied Clays with Clay Dot.
Don't be a leftist and start banning perfectly good products, do your part and control how they are used on your ranges!
Thanks for taking the time to read this note!

Sounds promising...although I have no experience with Longshot...only read where it will knock birds out of the upper stratosphere. When loaded to the hilt... Anyone on here have any experience with slowing this powder down. I plan on loading a couple of different loads and having them tested. Any tip would be helpful.

[King Brown]

Kirk, you're overthinking what's best for you. Forget high velocity and the powder that takes them out of the sky, boom-bam. Mr. Rieber of Hodgdon is correct. Go to Hodgdon recipes and choose. I use Longshot bismuth in 16 and 12 gauges at pressures of 6900 and 7000psi and 1185 and 1175 fps respectively. The results are satisfactory. Your shooting skill is the determinant of success, not the powder or the load.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Thanks King. That sounds good to me. Yes I'm not looking to shoot ducks in the next county. It seems slowed down longshot makes pretty low pressures. That's what I'm after. Thanks for the confirmation. Have a great weekend

[Paul Harm]

Kirk, the post you made on the bottom of page 3 was very good, thanks.

[Kirk Mckinney]

You bet Paul. I am going to give it a try. Hope it works out for you

[Kirk Mckinney]

Kirk, the post you made on the bottom of page 3 was very good, thanks.

Paul
I just spoke to Hodgdon Tech support. They said that Ron that works there must not have been speaking about 12 gauge . He said that Longshot wouldn't work with a 1oz. That was my first question. Second that you couldn't slow it down or it wouldn't burn all the powder and would leave a wad in the barrel worst case. Not sure what shot load or gauge you were thinking but I wanted to give you a heads up. He said its a magnum powder for high velocities. Not sure what to think now.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Gentlemen, The results are in on Bismuth and Longshot..... I had tested 2 strings tested,everything same except wads. 1 1/8 oz. of 4 shot came in at 1170 fps to 1192 fps @5700psi. to 6200 psi.....I would think that would be sufficient for ducks. What do yall think ??? Iam sure I can bump it up a little for my old Sterlingworth and still be safe if needed. Thanks for any advise in advance.

See you in the Field !!!

[Kirk Mckinney]

I think experimenting with these loads and testing them is half the fun !!! lol

[Rick Losey]

Gentlemen, The results are in on Bismuth and Longshot..... I had tested 2 strings tested,everything same except wads. 1 1/8 oz. of 4 shot came in at 1170 fps to 1192 fps @5700psi. to 6200 psi.....I would think that would be sufficient for ducks. What do yall think ??? Iam sure I can bump it up a little for my old Sterlingworth and still be safe if needed. Thanks for any advise in advance.

See you in the Field !!!

so what was the final load/components ?

[Kirk Mckinney]

so what was the final load/components ?

2 1/2 cheddite hull and primer . 25gn longshot. Tuwz2m15 wad from precision. And 1 1/8 bismuth. I think that will work don't you Rick

[Rick Losey]

I think those specs are fine

The variance is not bad. No filler in the bismuth?

[Kirk Mckinney]

No. No filler in the wad just bismuth. Not sure if you mean like a card or something but no nothing. In fact it's a tight fit. I hand measured and loaded all six of the string. I think I may go up about 2 tenths on the powder. I'm going to call Keith tomorrow and see what he thinks... 1200 solid is what I was shooting for. We just guessed and tried to downsize the hodgdon load listed earlier in this thread.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Rick on the variance I gave you the majority. I got a 1136,1159,1174,1185,1185 and a 1192 fps. I figure I messed up on that real slow one. But I thought even factory loads will vary. Is that right ?? But I'm going to see about kicking it up about a half a grain. The variation on fps is 21 fps except the real slow one its 56. On pressure it's 5380 on that slow one and 6200 on the high one. And the high one wasn't even the fastest it was second. But they were all within 300psi except that real slow one. I must have mis read my scales. I need to figure out why the one is so far off. Any ideals anyone ??

[Mark Garrett]

TUWZ2M16GA is this the wad you are using ?

[Kirk Mckinney]

No it's 12 gauge

[Kirk Mckinney]

My bad it's Tuwz2m15. That's precision reloading a part number. If anyone has or gets any ballistic data on a 1 oz load with Longshot. Please share with me. Thanks

[Kirk Mckinney]

Gentlemen. I went to the range today and tried the 1 1/8 bismuth load. Shot 2 rounds of skeet. I wanted something to compare the recoil and blast to. So I took 2 boxes of my 24 gram lead shot skeet load. I took 2 holland and holland 2 1/2 inch light 12 gauge. I believe they are 15/16 oz shot with fiber wads and 2 of the bismuth loads. I shot about 10 rounds of 24dram. Then 2 h&h loads. The h&h have quite a bit more kick than my skeet loads. Same sharp Krispy kick for both. then shot about 20 more of the 24 gram skeet loads then 2 of the 1 1/8 longshot loads. It felt different. It was more of a push on my shoulder that a kick. It would compare to the h&h loads except not sharp maybe a little more. I was at the center station on the skeet range. It did a good job on the skeet as well. First time I heard my sterlingworth roar. Lol. That what it sounded like . I am hooked I going to make it work on a 1 oz load as soon as I get back from fishing. If any of you develop one before me share with me. I did. See you in the field

[Eric Johanen]

Kirk, so the final load spec's are: Cheddite 2.5 hull, Cheddite primer, Precision Tuwz2m15 wad, 25.0 grains of Long Shot, 1&1/8th oz. of Bismuth shot, no buffer for average 1180 fps @ 6200 psi? Is this with a roll or fold crimp? Sounds like a very useful load for vintage short chamber guns. Thank's for the work up and having it tested.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Yes. That's it Eric. The average velocity is 1171 and pressure is 5880. But that one that I guess I under charged brought the pressure down a bit. I spoke to Keith at precision. He said it worked well that he wouldn't hesitate to shoot that load He told me if I wanted to bump it up to a solid 1200 fps to go up 1/2 a grain. He said it should only up the pressure about 300 psi. I only shot 2 rounds because it's expensive to shoot at skeet, just so you will know the pressures registered where 5380 for that slow one. 5700,5750,6120,6130 and 6200. I loaded 2 boxes last night. I put them anywhere from 25gn to 25.3. They were six star crimp. I guess that's how you say it. Anyway hope this works well for all. Let me know how you liked it.

[Frank Srebro]

Are you sure you're loading 1-1/8 ounce of bismuth in that 2-1/2" hull? Bismuth is only about 80% as dense as lead, so a 1-1/8 ounce lead charge bar will drop about 7/8 ounce bismuth by weight.

Also that 1200 fps muzzle velocity with bismuth will slow down much more rapidly than lead shot at that muzzle speed (with the same diameter pellets). Thus the bismuth penetration and killing power will be comparatively less at any distance beyond just a few feet from the muzzle.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Yes it's 1 1/8 oz. I hand weighted the powder and shot. It fits perfect. It took me a couple hrs to load a couple boxes Lat night. I put #4 shot in them. It's a good fit with those wads.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Longshot will reach speeds of 1450 fps from what I hear. Have it as fast as you want it.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Just wondering has anyone else tried the load on this thread? If so how did it shoot for you????

[Rick Losey]

your load?

not yet-

first we need duck season :whistle:

then we need water :crying:

then we need ducks :corn:

I've managed to build up a stock of bismuth and nice shot should we get any shooting

[Kirk Mckinney]

Hey reloading friends.
I thought I would tell You about my fishing trip last week. We left the hotel in la Paz , Baja California Sur about 4:45. We made the 45 minute trip over to in English " the sea of the dead " named that because there is an old cemetery there. It was day break and you could see the calm bay that leads out to the Sea of Cortez. myself , Steve and the captain Efrain boarded a small boat called a Panga. About 22 or 24ft, narrow boat with no luxuries only a 2 way radio and ice chest and tackle. I made it known Marlin was on my bucket list. That was all that mattered to me. As we exited the bay out to sea with about 10 other boats the sun began to come up over the horizon. Calm seas it was a beautiful day. We had squid aboard for bait but the captain said we need bait for Marlin. So we begin fishing for bait. It seems a fish called Bonita was easiest to come by. Steve landed about a 3 pounder and the captain took it off his hook only to put it on mine and told me to start fishing. I laugh now thinking about it because it seemed giant for bait. We fished till about 11 am catching various fish but still no Marlin when a call came in on the radio from his buddy in another boat. We reeled in our lines and headed their way. As we pulled up beside them the captain grabbed a bucket and began putting sea water in the front bow of the boat. His buddy netted 2 fish about 1 or 1 1/2 lbs each and he put them in the front of the boat. This was the bait we were wanting. once on the hook and in the water it only took about 3 minutes and the line was ripping of the reel. Omg. For about 30 minutes all I could do was hang on. We had to chase it in the boat to recover some line. You would think it was pretty close to the boat then it would jump out of the water about a city block away. Lol. What a site. After 30 minutes or so I told Steve it's your turn as my arms were about to fall off. He reeled till he couldn't anymore then Efrain the captain took his turn. Around and around we took our turns reeling in and watching him run away. The strength this fish has is unbelievable. After about 2 hours of chasing and reeling I began to wonder if I really wanted a Marlin lol. We decided not to quit as we looked around and all the other boats had gone in. We knew that 2 other groups were waiting for us to make the 45 min trip back to the hotel. We began to really tighten up on the drag of the reel over the next 2 hours to wear the fish down. After the 4th hour we had the drag as tight as it would go. You couldnt even pull the fishing pole up from the rail of the boat and yet this monster was still not giving up. It continued to peel off line. After 4hrs and 20 minutes several blisters all over my hands, arms cramped up , burnt up with no strength left I told him to cut the line. Lol I was whooped. Steve gave up about a hour and a half before and was laying in the front of the boat. This fish won. Efrain said it would be at the least 450 lbs and probably more. I would have never dreamed these fish have so much power. I would have to compare it to trying to bring home a totally wild buffalo with nothing but a rope. Wow. We never landed it but had it right beside the boat several times. Woke up this morning. My arms would even open up all the way. Back sore, hands sore, blisters. Lol. I am writing that on off my bucket list lol. What a fishing trip. I told Efrain God was going to give me a Marlin. Be careful what you ask God for. Lol. A day I will never forget.

[Kirk Mckinney]

I know what you mean Rick. My first hunt is Nov. 15th....We have had a lot of fronts blow thru...should be ducks...we will see

[Kirk Mckinney]

Rick....yes I guess you could say its my load :)... I am finally published...lol Has anyone tried this load yet....I think its great. Not sure about cold weather effects , but would like to hear. I'm in texas....not to cold here

[Kirk Mckinney]

Gentlemen. Finally got to hunt with the longshot/bismuth load. I thought I would give you a report. Went to a 40 aced lake here in Texas on public land. As we pulled up we saw flashlight shining on the north side of the lake. We got out and watched as 4 guys were busy putting out a spread. This meant only one thing, we were going to have to hunt with the north wind in our faces. We decided we weren't going to be denied as we put out or decoys. Any ducks coming into our decoys had to drop over the tall oaks behind us to either land in a small area behind the decoys or out infront of them. The only other option was to go to the decoys across the lake and land into the calm waters on the north bank. Not really the start I wanted. I had assumed since it was Tuesday we would have the lake to ourselves. As we sat with the wind and mist in our faces about 6 ducks came over the lake, circled a couple times and yes headed towards the other guys decoys. Sounded like 30 rounds went off as the ducks scattered and started climbing heading straight for us . Although they were kind of high and moving fast I drew down on one and let my Fox roar. Longshot is supposed to be a real slow burning and has mild recoil at these velocities and sound great . Like a rock that mallard crashed through those tall oaks. Stone dead. Great load. Happy hunting. See you there next Tuesday

[Kirk Mckinney]

Just curious. Did anyone else besides me shoot this load. Would like your input. Being new to shotshells reloading someone may have noticed things about it that maybe you improved on. Not sure. Anyone???

[Kirk Mckinney]

Really !!! Out of 4k people that viewed this load....none tried it ???

[Matt Buckley]

Kirk,
I happened upon your Bismuth load and it looks like a good one. I may try this recipe with roll crimped loads. I like roll crimping shorter loads, then I don't have to mess resetting the reloader for crimping.