What time period is this shell from?

[Craig Larter]

I found a 2 7/8" 12 ga Leader shell in a bunch of shells given to me. What era is this shell from? The base is marked 1901 No 12 Leader. I own a 2 7/8" bored Parker from circa 1916 and wondered if this shell is from the same time period.

[Rick Losey]

but is that 2 7/8 loaded? or is it a new primed empty

[Craig Larter]

Loaded

[Rick Losey]

then i would expect it to be at least a 3 inch hull if its roll crimped

might look here
http://www.headstamps.x10.mx/1901.html

two of the 1901 No 12 Leader shells listed have the high brass with three rings high and one low


and of course- any minute Dave the researcher will post the catalog page, a shell box and a picture of someone using them :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

[Craig Larter]

Rick: Thanks the head stamp and primer indicates 1904-1919 according to the Winchester link. So it must be from the time period---very cool shell. It is roll crimped so is it a 3" shell or a 2 7/8" shell??

[Rick Losey]

the hull length is always measured uncrimped

new primed empty or fired

that is why we trim our 10GA cases to 2 7/8 then load them

[CraigThompson]

It appears to have what I call the little primer (meaning the area the firing pin hits) same as some 20 and 28 gauge Winchester Repeater shells I had and it was my understanding they were made before 1910 .

[Dave Noreen]

Your shell is from the same period as the gun, but is probably a 3-inch case. Actually old Researcher is thin on early Winchester ammunition paper. I'm much better with UMC & Rem-UMC, and Western.

That primer is likely the "New No. 4" --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Winchester/New%20No.%204%20Primers_zpspkcs6cnd.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Winchester/New%20No.%204%20Primers%20partial%20box_zpsopgo7dp w.jpg

which was in use from around 1904 until after WW-I. Winchester shotgun shells sold factory loaded had WINCHESTER on the headstamp, and those sold as NPEs had 1901, again until a bit after WW-I. The earlier primer would have been the No. 4 --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Winchester/No.%204%20Primer%20box_zpsbj7hxrv5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Winchester/1901%20LEADER%2012-Gauge_zpsxrm2kmvb.jpg

[Craig Larter]

The primer reads new number 4, so it is a 3" shell handloaded?? (what does NPE mean??), in the time period of the CHE. Thanks everyone for the information!!

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

Craig,
It is a 3" shell, almost certainly handloaded. What does the top wad say? Rather, what is printed on the top wad. ( I know top wads can't speak ). I have a number of those NPE's in my collection. NPE stands for " New Primed Empty ".

[Craig Larter]

Austin: Thanks so much, no printing on the top wad so as you said it is a handload 3" shell. Thanks all!! I learn so much every day from these forums!! So one more question for you experts, would a 3" shell be used in a Parker chambered for 2 7/8"????

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

It could....but not knowing the components of the shell this thread is discussing....I would not try that one.

[Dave Noreen]

In theory, if a Parker was ordered "chambered for 2 7/8 inch shell" the actual chamber would be 2 3/4 inch. If it was ordered with a 2 7/8 inch chamber, that would be for a 3-inch shell. We probably agonize way too much over these chamber length differences, as the "finding out for myself" series in The Double Gun Journal suggests that as much as 1/4 inch doesn't mean much.

It sure seems to me that the old Pigeon shooters and waterfowlers who ordered these guns chambered for the long 12-gauge shells in the old days must have shot them all up, where as the sporty waterfowl hunters using long 20-gauge shells must have died with a good supply of shells on hand. My gun room is accumulating a good selection of early 2 7/8 inch and 3-inch 20s, but the boxes of long 12-gauge shells are eluding me.

[Craig Larter]

There's no way I would fire a 100 year old shell. However, it is fun to think about what it was like shooting that Roman candle.

[Dave Noreen]

In the period from the mid-1880s until after WW-I, many shooters used shotgun shells loaded by their local gun stores. The shipping costs were a significant part of the price of shotgun shells back in the day, so shipping the much lighter NPEs or even in the case of Peters Cartridge Co. they catalogued their various shells just loaded with the powder and wads, ready for the local folks to put in their shot and crimp the shells. The biggest outfit loading shells in the west was Selby in San Francisco, California.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Rem-UMC/Selby%20Challenge_zpsrlswfzak.jpg

CHALLENGE was UMCs new primed empty equal to their NITRO CLUB loaded shell.

Here in Spokane we had Ware Bros. This 10-gauge shell is a 1901 LEADER --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Winchester/1901No10WareBros_zps7c72ca7f.jpg

[Phillip Carr]

Here is an example of my 8 gauge Leader shells. Marking showing 1900 and 1902.

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50905_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50905_600x400/)

[Phillip Carr]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50906_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50906_600x400/)


http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50907_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50907_600x400/)

[Dave Noreen]

July 17, 1900, is the date of U.S. Patent No. 653,953, granted to John Gardner and assigned to Winchester Repeating Arms Co., for a primer. The other date appears to be July 14, 190? to my eye. Patents weren't issued on July 14, 1902, that week they were issued on the 15th. In that your 8-gauge Winchester LEADER shells appear to have the New No. 4 primer, they are from after 1904.

[Phillip Carr]

I used a 10x on the label it is 1903.

[Dave Noreen]

That July 14, 1903, patent date is on boxes of the New No. 4 primers --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Winchester/New%20No.%204%20Primers%20label_zpsqkhz7cbb.jpg

but not on boxes of the older No. 4 primers --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Winchester/No.%204%20Primer%20box_zpsbj7hxrv5.jpg

so I'd expect a connection to the New No. 4 Primers. I haven't had any luck in finding a Winchester Patent with that issue date.

[Phillip Carr]

Thank you Dave. You are an incredible wealth of knowledge.