Miller Triggers

[Dave Suponski]

I just want to let everyone here know that the Miller Single Trigger Co. has been purchased from Doug Turnbull by "Classic Gunstocks LLC" Partners Daniel May and PGCA Life Member Ken Waite III are now offering this service to all that are in need. I wish them all success possible in their new venture.There will be an add in an upcoming issue of the Parker Pages.

[Chris Travinski]

If only they could start a business converting singles to doubble triggers!

[Dean Romig]

I want to wish both Dan and Ken the very best of success as well.

[Dean Romig]

Now that we have a Miller Trigger thread - there were three different designs of the Miller Trigger, one with the selector built into the safety - one with a rocker switch in front of ther trigger - one fitted in the left side of the top tang beside the opening lever . . .

In which order were they introduced?

[Bill Murphy]

I have never seen the variation with the selector on the top tang next to the top lever. That sounds like the Infallible Trigger made in Lancaster, PA. The three position safety mounted selector is the early variation of the Miller. The rocker style selector is the later and not often seen. Another variation of the Miller single trigger would be the non selective single trigger like is factory installed on the Iver Johnson Skeeter, for example. I have not seen many Miller installations outside of factory guns with this variation. I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember that the factory Ithaca Miller trigger installation was sometimes a non selective trigger. Dave Noreen could clear up that mystery. It was great to meet Ken and Dan at Hausemann's in their new business uniforms.

[Dave Suponski]

Thanks for clearing that up Bill.I had thought that the tang mounted safety was a Miller variation now I know thats it's an Infallable trigger.

[Austin W Hogan]

Miller began as a one man operation and continued as a two man operation. We will probably continue to find different versions as additional Miller equipped guns appear. Miller equipped guns often have unusual dimensions and configurations because they were used by very competitive shooters. I have a Miller equipped 32 inch , BTFE, straight grip, VHE with no safety. The safety filler has PH like engraving hiding the patch. The barrels are .740 diameter with chambers and forcing cones more like a Super Fox than a Parker. The stock has had its Monte Carlo removed and replaced; it has also been repitched at least twice. There is a threaded hole in the trigger gaurd where a pistol grip was once attached.
I think that recent events indicate that a significant collecting niche is developing involving the connection of unique ( and ordinary) guns to distinguished shooters. Many of these were fitted with Miller triggers.
Fitting a Miller trigger requires welding the mounting stud to the floorplate, and bending the sear levers. Few parts would be recoverable when converting to a double trigger.

Best, Austin

[Dick Miller]

Bill,
The non-selective trigger found on Ithaca NID's is a Howland, identified as such on my Field Skeet 20 by Walt (you saw this gun at the Vintagers). As I recall from a conversation with Walt this trigger was designed by Howland, who was an employee of Ithaca.

[Drew Hause]

Harry Howland of Ithaca Gun Co. applied for a patent of the Miller copy "Ithaca Selective Single Trigger" in June 1928 and was granted Ptd.# 1,818,852 Aug. 11 1931; and a non-selective trigger Pat #1,889,049 in 1932 and #1,987,402 in 1935.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/22972484/382723950.jpg

Infallible

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/22972484/383063949.jpg

Pics of several single trigger variants are here, along with one not yet IDd
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/22972484

[Dave Suponski]

With out getting too far off topic here.I just converted my VHE 16 gauge"Hot Rod"skeet gun to double triggers after the Parker single trigger proved to be too far gone.And I love double triggers. We fitted a 1 frame double trigger floor plate and replaced the sears with standard double trigger sears as Austin has mentioned and off I went.I shot it this past weekend at Ernie's and other than the fact that the stock is really too high for sporting it performed great.

PS.....I kept all the original parts so the gun could be converted back in the future...:)

[Harry Collins]

Here are a few photo's of Uncle Bill's VH 16's Miller Trigger:

[Bill Murphy]

I won't say any more about the pre Howland single triggers in Ithaca guns until Dave Noreen checks in.

[Dan May]

Thank you all for the kind words of encouragement. Ken and I are very excited to be able to carry on Elmer and Howard Miller's legacy. We are going to try to make them proud! Doug Turnbull deserves our thanks as well for his work with the Miller system, he put a lot of effort into modernizing it and making it even better.

As for the selector question, there were only two systems. The original patents located the selector on the tang safety and the 1962 patent established the rocker type selector mounted on the front of the trigger body. The Miller's definitely felt this was an improvement as it was a sturdier, simpler system and was less apt to give trouble. Many feel that it is less convenient for fast selection in the field and it is surely an arguable point. At this time, we are only going to be installing selective systems based on the 1962 patent. If there is enough interest, we may consider reverse engineering the earlier style for production in the future.

I really enjoyed the conversation at Hausmann's this past weekend. I'm glad that I had the opportunity to meet many of the members here and look forward to seeing you all again soon.

Best regards,

Dan

[Dean Romig]

I must say that I am quite surprised to learn the "rocker" style in front of the trigger is of a 1962 patent. I had a 1929 CHE double trap with this style and there was no evidence of the earlier style having ever been incorporated on the gun... or any other manufacture of single trigger for that matter.

[Dan May]

Dean,

Here is a link to the patent. http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=jn1FAAAAEBAJ&dq=miller+trigger+1962

Elmer patented a similar mechanism in 1939, this may be what you had. This rocker switch did not have a spring loaded detent like the 62 patent and generally had a round profile.
I'd have to see it to know for sure.

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=akhjAAAAEBAJ&dq=miller+trigger+1939

Best, Dan

[Dave Fuller]

From a closet single trigger fan, good luck with the Miller project!

[Dean Romig]

Any thoughts on which single trigger would have originally been installed in 1939 by Parker Bros.? The Miller single trigger it now has is the 1962 patent.

[Dave Suponski]

Dean,That trigger would have been installed by Remington....Right?

[Dan May]

If it were a Parker type single, I would assume it would be the second generation, hopefully someone with more info will jump in. It can be hard to tell what was there after the Miller conversion is done, unless you look inside for evidence.

Best, Dan

[Dean Romig]

I honestly don't recall that the gun had any Remington codes.

[Eric Eis]

Well Dan it's great that you got the Miller tigger figured out, but like I said at the shoot now you need to get to work on figuring out the Parker single trigger..... Eric

[Dan May]

Eric,

I can fix any Parker single trigger.....by swapping it out for a Miller! Ha! Seriously though, we're willing to take a look at problem triggers from other makes. We'll do no harm, if it's over our heads we'll stop and let you know. Many of the principles are the same from system to system.

I enjoyed talking with you at the shoot, hope to meet up again soon.

Best, Dan

[Dan Houghton]

Just to throw a wrench in the works...Here is a 1930 Charles Daly with a Miller with a different type of selector. Small lever in front of trigger swings right or left. Works as well as my other Millers!

[Dean Romig]

Well I'll be.... :bowdown:

[Drew Hause]

Thank you Dan. I added your excellent pics here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/22972484

[Dan May]

Dan,

That's a big wrench!!! I looked through all of the patents and none show a selector like that. Likewise, we don't have anything similar in all of the leftover Miller "hardware" in our possession. After looking over the patents, I believe this selector is a variation, and based upon, Elmer's 1939 patent. I'd love to see the inside of that mechanism. My guess is that the resilient pin that works against the spring which selects the trip position is mounted in the top rear of the selector switch. In doing this he most likely omitted the lengthwise shaft that would have been connected to the original rocker button mounted at the forward end of the trigger body. Just a guess.

Very interesting, the Millers never cease to amaze me. Thanks for showing us, hopefully I'll get a chance to examine your gun some day.

Best, Dan

[Austin W Hogan]

Dan; I had a Parker DHE trap, 32 inch btfe, with the Parker SST marks present on the trigger plate. The Parker SST was replaced by the Miller with rocker selector. There were several Remington repair codes on the gun but these do not infer the type of repair.

Philosophical question - would a Miller trigger installed by the Millers be more or less desirable than a Miller installed by Remington?

Best, Austin

[Dave Suponski]

Another Question...Did Remington actually install Miller Triggers?

[Fred Preston]

The nicest little 20ga Trojan I have seen is the one Larry DelGrego made for his grandson, L. D. III. It has a Miller nonselictive.

[Dan May]

Austin and all,

No person or company that I know of was ever officially licensed by the Miller Company to install their triggers. They always retained the trademarks and kept it in house to the best of my knowledge (especially after their experience with Ithaca). There have been Miller triggers installed with take-out parts from other guns and I expect that practice continues to this day to some degree. If it is stamped Miller, however, it can be assumed that it was installed by the Miller Brothers, Doug Turnbull or now, us.

An acquaintance of Howard Miller's shared an anecdote with me at the Northeast shoot. He was visiting with Howard at his shop and Howard was talking about those that try to copy his trigger. He said, "A lot of people try to copy my triggers, but nobody has my hands." He said this as he was filing and fitting a trigger. What a cool story.

Dan

[Austin W Hogan]

Dan; I think you are probably correct. Installing a Miller is not an easy task, and probably impossible without "inside" information from the Millers.
My remaining Miller/Parker is the 1920 vintage VHE live bird gun. I also have a similar era Fox C with the same model Miller. Miller equipped exposed hammer Parkers are known.
Has anyone seen a W 21 or Rem 32 with a Miller?

Best, Austin

[Drew Hause]

Rem 32

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/22972484/382725014.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/22972484/382725015.jpg

[Dan May]

The Millers were granted patents for over/under triggers in 1933, 1938, 1951 and 1962. As Drew shows above, the Model 32 was a very common conversion. I've never seen a converted 21, the 21 single trigger is usually pretty reliable. But never say never!

Dan

[Tom Carter]

Hi Austin, I have a Model 21 trap gun with a Miller. It has the toggle selector in front of the triger. Cheers, Tom

[Austin W Hogan]

Thanks, Tom, but you lost me a big bet; I figured Murphy would have had it!

Best Austin

[Dan May]

Like I said, never say never! That's what makes this all so much fun. I think the Millers put one of their triggers in everything at one time or another. They were even working on set triggers for bolt action rifles, I have a few of the prototypes. Crazy!

[Harry Collins]

I just had Uncle Bill's 16 gauge VH repaired by DelGrego. It was missing most of the screws and the cocking lever etc. The young Larry DelGrego said that when he was still in high school he was sent to work with the Miller Trigger folks to learn all about the triggers. One of the things he told me was the tension on the two screws that connect the floor plate to the back strap was a critical part of the opperation.

Harry

[Bill Murphy]

Tom, what is the serial number of your Miller equipped Model 21? Howard Miller's Model 21 pigeon gun was equipped with his trigger. It is a 32" Trap Grade, consecutively serial numbered to my 32" Trap Grade, both vent rib guns. Austin, I don't own a Miller trigger 21, but it isn't for lack of trying. Miller trigger hammer guns are not uncommon. I watched a Miller trigger Whitworth barrelled Purdey hammer pigeon gun sitting on the rack in a gun store where I worked for months before a friend finally bit the bullet and took it home.

[Dan May]

Harry,

That is absolutely true, not only for the Miller but most singles. More specifically it is the distance between the upper and lower tangs that is important and screw tension can affect this. The distance is set when the installation is done and is the most common cause of malfunctions down the road. The trigger mechanism itself is just about bulletproof once it is made and hardened, changes in its relationship to the wood is usually the source of problems.

Dan

[Tom Carter]

Austin, Sorry you lost your bet. I hope it wasn't a AA 20 gauge.

Bill, It will be this weekend before I can get the serial number. I'll PM you when I get it. I'm tied up with other things.

Cheers, Tom

[Austin W Hogan]

Combining this thread on the Miller trigger, and that discussing the TI 4 exposed hammer twenty ga gun, I propose that a Miler equipped fluid steel exposed hammer Parker might be the epitome of collectable Parkers.

1) The engraving coverage of locks and hammers continued with the old patterns, although hammerless guns of the same grade had less engraving coverage.

2) The fluid steel exposed hammer guns were made in small batches in the order pages Mark has shown. This is because the frame forging was altered to provide "modern" stock dimensions.

3) The Miller SST provides a unique system for a gun carried afield. The right trigger could be selected and the left hammer cocked. Safe carry with a loaded and cocked gun as the right hammer could be cocked on the mount as quickly a safety could be released.

4) It is doubtful that the fluid steel exposed hammer guns were made "on spec". These guns were made in response to orders for "dream guns" by experienced shooters.

Best, Austin