Any reloading pro's near Cleveland?

[John Nagel]

Hi guys,

I am a new reloader, and I am at my wits end trying to reload win aa 28ga shells so that they slide into the barrel of my AyA with the ease that factory loads do. I have made what seems like a million adjustments and watched a million videos and read a many pages of my lyman book and the MEC size master manual. I just can't get it. If someone would be willing to help it would mean a heck of a lot to a young shooter who doesn't know anything yet!

John

[Steve Havener]

John I am not an expert with MEC loaders but have had the same problem when loading on my PW and Pacific ( pre Hornaday) loaders and the problem is usually in the final crimp die not adjusted down far enough for the taper crimp in the final crimp die to form the case mouth properly.

[John Nagel]

I just tried moving the final crimp down various amounts and that isn't fixing the issue.

[Daniel Carter]

Is the problem in the plastic case or in the brass? If the plastic the starter or final crimp may be too deep bulging the plastic. If so back off. If brass it is the resizer collet. Does the shell slide in to a point then bind? Some AA28 i have are noticeably longer than other batches and i have to raise starter and final crimp dies for those.

[John Nagel]

Is it the plastic, it starts to slide in and then theres resistance, like the tips are too wide or something. I have tried backing the crimp out, in ect. in increments. I just can't seem to get it right.

[William Davis]

Could be a couple things try to isolate the bind

Put some stripes down the loaded cartridge with a Sharpie. See were its binding as it goes in the chamber . Do the same thing loading in your press & see if the press is taking care of the offending spot.

Sizemaster ought to take care of the brass, but you never know . If it's the mouth of the hull measuring with a dial caliper ought to indicate straight, tapered, or " Mushroomed" . cure is different depending .

William

[John Nagel]

"mushroomed" sounds correct, I can load an almost factory perfect crimp, but the top of edges of the mouth puff out a bit.

[Daniel Carter]

Try backing out the screw in the final crimp die and see if that does away with the puffing out or for a quick look don't go all the way down if it's a single stage machine.

[John Nagel]

I have tried adjusting the crimps in about 100,000 different configurations and nothing seems to work.

[Steve Havener]

OK John I'll make one more recommendation. Back off the final crimp die a few turns and put a new unfired shell in the final crimp station then lower the die onto the new shell and adjust the die down until it is snug. If that doesn't do it or at least get you close I am out of ideas.

[William Davis]

Steve has it, fresh factory shell, run the crimp die down until it touches. Use it as a starting point with your shell. Go for too little crimp, no "mushroom" then gradually increase until it's right.

It helps to mark your crimp die somehow. On a P-W I use a label maker, run a tape with hash marks around the die. That way I can see how much I am adding or taking away from the crimp as you adjust the die. 1/8 turn-2/8 turn 3/8 turn etc. otherwise it's possible to go too much, not enough, never hitting the right spot. The right spot may be as little as 1/16 turn. It's a fine line.

William

[Paul Harm]

Maybe this will help. The roller and cam have to be adjusted to get a good shell. You didn't say, but I'm assuming you're using a 650 or 600jr.
The roller will not touch the cam (or at least not have any force put on it by the cam) at the very bottom of the stroke. BUT, more cam means the cam will touch the roller and apply force to it longer (further down) in the stroke. The cam has a fairly sharp shoulder or lobe on it. When you start down with the press the roller rolls on the cam (because this part of the cam is circular) and the outer (plastic) part of the die is pushed down by the cam and roller. Until you get around 1/2-3/4 of the way down, everything I have said so far remains true regardless of where the cam is set. However, the cam is rotating as you come down. Eventually the cam rotates to the point when the roller goes past the shoulder on the cam. Past this point the cam is no longer circular. As you come on down the cam puts less and less pressure on the roller. But, the center punch will come on down because it is fastened solidly to the top of the press. If the roller gets past the shoulder of the cam too early in the stroke you will end up with the punch coming on down on the center of the crimp and this tending to squeeze the top of the shell outward. But the plastic part of the die is not coming on down, which means it cannot prevent the top of the shell from flaring outward. It takes a lot of fine tuning to get this just right. There is a reason why Mec adds the final taper die to the Grabber and 9000. Having a separate die that is used strictly to get some taper makes things a lot simpler.


Most people do NOT have straight in their minds what the CAM actually does. There are all kinds of convoluted beliefs as to what it actually does.

Adding more cam, (Lowering it at the adjustment slot), causes the crimp die to lower slightly at the near bottom of the stroke. The die has a taper at the top of the die, that when pushed lower, will in fact push the flare at the end of the hull inward, closing the hole in the center tighter, and usually will eliminate the flare and in fact may leave the end of the hull slightly rounded.

SO, in most cases, a properly adjusted CAM will reduce or eliminate the flare on the end of the hull, and probably leave it slightly rounded.

When adjusting the crimp station, the CAM is the LAST thing you adjust. Adjust the crimp starter first, then adjust the seating stem to get the proper depth. When you are getting a correct fold of the crimp petals, and the correct depth set, THEN adjust the cam to eliminate the flare. NOTE The cam adjustment should be set at least 2/3 of the way up, while the other adjustments are being made. Then, and only then, lower the cam enough to eliminate the flare.

[William Davis]

Good Advice, I know very little about Mec's, don't know how you would mark the cam to monitor amount of adjustment, but on a P-W same thing Crimp is the last thing you adjust.

Willliam

[Paul Harm]

A pencil line on the cam. I've never marked it, just loosen the Allen head screw and move the cam a slight bit and retighten the screw. What I just posted came from a different web site. There were two different replies of someone having the same problem. Some of those guys have been reloading with Mec's for many years and seem quite knowledgeable. I've learned a lot over there [www.shotgunworld.com ] in the reloading forum.

[John Nagel]

A pencil line on the cam. I've never marked it, just loosen the Allen head screw and move the cam a slight bit and retighten the screw. What I just posted came from a different web site. There were two different replies of someone having the same problem. Some of those guys have been reloading with Mec's for many years and seem quite knowledgeable. I've learned a lot over there [www.shotgunworld.com ] in the reloading forum.

Ok, I will mess with the cam tonight. What is the order I should be making these adjustments in regarding cam, final crimp and pre crimp? Where should I start?

[Daniel Carter]

Follow Mr. Harm's last paragraph and you should be fine.

[Daniel Carter]

Post# 12 last paragraph.

[Paul Harm]

Mec 's explanation about the cam/roller is to eliminate the swirl in the end of the shell. They don't say anything about eliminating the flare. The swirl and any opening can be taken care of by properly adjusting the start and final crimp. Then, as stated above, the flare can be taken out with a rounded corner for easy loading.

[Paul Harm]

Your start crimp dictates how much material [ shell ] there is for the final crimp. If there is very little start crimp most the time you'll end up with a hole in the final crimp. At the other end, if there's a lot of start crimp [ shell almost touching ] , then you might have too much material and get a swirl in the final crimp. I usually start with enough start crimp that a lead pencil will almost fit in the end. The plunger in the final crimp station is then adjusted to get about .060 depth [ look at a factory shell ]. Then you may have to readjust the start crimp to eliminate holes or swirls. That should get you to the step to adjust the cam/roller for a rounded, nice looking, working shell.

[John Nagel]

This may be a really dumb question, but is it possible to mess around with this without doing all the other steps loading the shell?

[Paul Harm]

NO. I guess if we back up, first you must have the load - shot, wad, powder, the proper height, or close to it. With a 12ga that would be between 3/8 and a 1/2" of the shot to the top of the shell. I just checked my shells - .450 [ top of shot to top of the hull ] and a .055 lip on the crimp. It makes a difference what powder you're using - how dense it is. And just use enough wad pressure to seat it. Don't compress it with a lot of pressure - it'll just want to push back up latter. If the shot is too close to the top of the shell you won't have the enough shell material left over for a proper crimp. It's a learning process that you'll catch on to with a bit of experience. First get the proper height of your column of components [ bit under a 1/2" from the top ] and then work on getting a proper crimp. What are you using - powder, wad, and amount of shot in what shell ?

[John Nagel]

I sort of figured that, and I never tried, but I figured if I'm making a ton of adjustments it would save time.

I am using the lightest recipe for 28 ga in winches HS hulls from my Lyman book.

Win aa HS shells
Correct Claybuster replacement wad for AA28HS shells
Unique powder 11.5 grains
3/4 oz of shot
Win 209 primers

[Paul Harm]

I just looked - 28ga Win shells. You picked a harder shell to reload than 12ga. I only have Rem 28ga shells, but with them I can't use Rem wads - never had enough room for everything. I use the Claybuster wads for all my gauges - much cheaper. I'm sorry about going on about 12ga, should have looked. With the 28ga you'll want about 3/8" from the shot to the top of the shell. I don't load a lot of 28. Once in awhile for my Spanish double or the wife's O/U. 995 of my loading is for 12ga. The amount os shell left for crimping can be more critical in the smaller gauges - you may have to use a bit of wad pressure for a good crimp. You'll just have to learn withy what you're using, and if it will work. Good luck.

[Paul Harm]

How far is the shot from the top of the shell ?

[Eric Eis]

I know this is a stupid question, but have you called Mec, their staff really tries to help. Just a thought

[John Nagel]

Y'all are awesome. Special thanks to Paul. It was the cam. I have got it consistently cranking correct profile shells!

[Paul Harm]

Glad you got it working.