Get the lead out.

[Brian Dudley]

There was some previous discussion here not long ago about lead in the butt of guns for adding weight for balance.
I had mentioned that lead put in the butt of a gun is a bad thing because it can cause the wood to split when moisture is introduced to the lead because it swells. Some seemed to doubt this fact. Or also suggest that it maybe was the wood shrinking around the lead that rather caused issues.

Well, i will share yet another example of this happening. This Lefever just came into the shop with a 4" long split right in the middle of the butt. In the butt was a deep hole that had been filled with lead shot. The shot was completely fused together with corrotion to make a solid mass. This led to the wood splitting.


The stock on this gun has already been nicely refinished at one time. But the lead was never removed before hand. So that job is now spoiled and will have to be done over after the repair is done.

49207

[Bruce Day]

Always a bad idea when Pb oxidizes to PbO2.

[Bill Kekatos]

How thick is the wood in the area where it split Brian?

[Brian Dudley]

Approx. 1/4".

[Dean Romig]

I would think the problem wound be exacerbated with shot (far more surface area to oxidize) than a solid lead core.






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[Steve Huffman]

Got a Lefever from my friend same thing happened with shot but alot worse !

[Edward Yager]

What if you put epoxy in the hole then added the shot.Then the lead would be covered with epoxy,and not be able to move.

[greg conomos]

or just used 'heavy metal' like we discussed before...

[Todd Kaltenbach]

I had a L C Smith that had lead put in the stock, you can see how it worked out.

[Brian Dudley]

:shock:

[Dave Noreen]

Has this sort of thing happened with the lead in the butt stocks of Winchester Model 12 Heavy Ducks?

[James L. Martin]

I saw it happen on a Winchester 97 pump gun .

[Frank Srebro]

I've seen many solid lead plugs originally done by Fox/Philly along with those in several Winchester Mod 12 Heavy Duck pump guns, and one just recently in a Baker SBT gun. In all of those guns the plug was at the back end of the stock, just a little under the buttplate or pad where the wood is quite thick. One Fox plug I measured, but didn't pull, was about 5/8" in diameter, and the Baker plug which was pulled is .520" diameter which suggests it was pressed lightly into a 1/2" drill hole. The long surface of the Baker plug is somewhat rough and looks like it was cast that way before pressing into the stock, to positively grip when under recoil set-back. All these many guns were done by the respective factories and none had cracked stocks or even the start of a crack. Yes, the exposed end of the plug was oxidized gray/white but that was easily cleaned if desired with something like a pencil eraser. Of course any gun with a lead plug what was done post-factory is subject to how that plug was done by whoever did it.

I can understand a stock splitting if someone hammers a way oversize plug into a hole, or let's say if someone pours molten lead into the hole. :nono: Regarding using lead shot for recoil reduction or to help balance the gun, again shot will oxidize over a long period of time and when exposed to moisture, and probably the lead will also react with tannin in the wood. But as metals go, lead is relatively inert = increasingly less reactive than iron, nickle and tin, and a little more reactive than copper. Oxides will form over time but why wouldn't they creep into the open spaces between the shot pellets instead of creating pressure enough to crack the wood? Just based on the one picture provided here it looks like the crack is much farther forward than the solid lead plugs in the gun examples I cited. Maybe the hole drifted to one side while drilling, the wood "wall" was really thin there, and the crack resulted from release of internal stresses in the wood and/or from getting wet and drying out multiple times? All this is JMO of course.

[Rick Losey]

I can't post a picture right now

But I have a PH 10 Parker that split right along the plug in the stock

Very heavy barrels. The weight would have been needed for balance and was no doubt done when the gun was built

[John Campbell]

While I have been hesitant to join this discussion, I thought I'd offer a few perspectives of my own:

Lead oxide isn't good. But it may not be the only factor involved in this issue. Certain lead alloys seem to oxidize to different degrees. And under different conditions.

Then there is the stock wood. As mentioned, some of it is naturally acidic. Some less so. Some may absorb more moisture than other pieces. What's more, figured wood seems to be less resistant to strain/cracking/checking than more plain wood. American black Walnut is more prone to this than English/French walnut.

Then there is the gun's environment to consider. Was it kept in a humid climate? A very dry climate? Was it used in bad weather conditions where moisture could be an issue with the wood and lead oxidation?

Or... is the gun just OLD. Wood does not last forever. Some seems to. Other stocks fail before their time.

My only point is that lead in a butt stock for balance is just ONE factor in a gunstock's endurance or failure.

[Rick Losey]

all good points John

when we discussed this before - i wondered if wood movement was a more likely factor than lead expansion

[George Stanton]

I have used lead shot to balance guns or add weight in heavy recoiling rifles. I encapsulate the shot in epoxy to stop movement or oxidation. I don't think this will cause any issues in the long term.

[Richard Flanders]

Please tell me that lead wasn't poured in hot Todd..!

[Todd Kaltenbach]

My guess is that it was poured in hot but I bought the gun after the fact.

[Bill Murphy]

My eight gauge hammer gun had a lead plug that caused a crack. I assumed it was poured, so I took it out a piece at a time. Don't assume that your lead plug is smaller at the bottom end and can be pulled out.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I've got an LC Smith 16 gauge hammer gun that's got lead poured into the stock. The gun was stunningly heavy the first time I picked it up, once I got the buttplate off I knew why.

It's one of those project guns I'll probably never get around to doing anything with. But it's nice knowing it's in the collection none the less.

Destry

[Rick Losey]

another thought-

I drilled out the plug in my heavy PH 10's stock today-

about 3.5 ounces of lead in there, not sure I could save enough of it for a decoy anchor after the little pieces came flying out :rotf:

I figured a way to clamp the stock up so that I can glue it -

but- possibly part of the cause- the hole was not completely centered - just a little off - and it split on the slightly thinner side

also - the lead did not fill the hole all the way to the butt plate - there was a wooden plug on top of it - about a half inch deep at the back end - i saw no evidence of glue- but even with the crack - the wood plug was so tight it had to be drilled out- i wonder if that expanded as much or more than the oxided lead

the lead plug had no play - in there very tight

next thing is to figure out how to re-add the weight

a PS added

I glued this up just now- as bad as the crack looked (about 3") on the outside - the only place it was clean through to the hole was about an 1/8th of an inch at the butt- the rest was superficial along the grain - so I am leaning even more to blaming the wooden plug not the lead

[Ed Blake]

It appears that in the picture above holes were drilled and molten lead was poured into the stock. Nuts. I have a GH which had about 2oz. of #4 shot put into a hole drilled into the stock. I've just left it alone.

[Rick Losey]

It appears that in the picture above holes were drilled and molten lead was poured into the stock. Nuts. I have a GH which had about 2oz. of #4 shot put into a hole drilled into the stock. I've just left it alone.

Ed- not picking- just curious - if you left it in- how do you know how much is there?

i weighed my stock before and after removing the lead

now i just need to find a bar of Mallory or Tungsten to fit the hole, without having to order a truck load of the stuff- since i cannot machine it

[Dean Romig]

Why not turn a piece of brass to the correct diameter?
You may need to drill the hole in the stock deeper (wouldn't work in the case of the original hole being off center) to try to make up the difference in weight.... just a thought.





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[Rick Losey]

Why not turn a piece of brass to the correct diameter?
You may need to drill the hole in the stock deeper (wouldn't work in the case of the original hole being off center) to try to make up the difference in weight.... just a thought.

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possible - or even a steel rod - but i would rather not drill deeper after repairing the crack

i may have found one source that sells the tungsten alloy in one inch rods-
the hole is two inches deep (5/8th in diameter) - two 1/2 inch diameter one inch long rods will be a little over four ounces - the lead was 3.5

not sure i am touch sensitive enough to notice an extra half ounce in a ten and a half pound gun :draw:

[Dave Suponski]

Rick, use carbide

[Rick Losey]

Rick, use carbide

?????

carbide rod? is it heavier than lead??

and where do I find it

[Dave Suponski]

Yes Rick, carbide is heavier than lead will not rust. I think carbide blanks can be bought thru MSC and a few other industrial supply sites. I had a Winchester Model 42 that was too barrel light a couple end k
Mill blanks up the magazine tube and all was great. V how many oz. do you need? I'll take a look around

[Dean Romig]

Dave, can carbide be turned on a lathe using conventional bits?

I'm guessing not, so how is it to be cut down to size? And how expensive?





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[Dave Suponski]

No you can't turn it. We grind it. Not as expensive as years ago but still not cheap. An example.... A 5/8 dia end mill is about $300

[Dean Romig]

Yowza!.....:shock:






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[Ed Blake]

Ed- not picking- just curious - if you left it in- how do you know how much is there?

i weighed my stock before and after removing the lead

now i just need to find a bar of Mallory or Tungsten to fit the hole, without having to order a truck load of the stuff- since i cannot machine it

Rick - it appears to be about 2oz just eyeballing it. The shot has formed itself into a lump.

[Rick Losey]

here you go Dave, and thank you very much for the help

that carbide fit great - took out 3.5 oz of lead - added 3.8 of carbide

and that .3oz is exactly how much more the scale shows the finished project weighs

i did not refinish the whole stock- lots of character in the wood and the metal would look out of place- I scraped the repaired area to smooth it out and very lightly sanded it- then blended in new varnish with the old by applying it with a pad then a light buffing with #2 pumice then rottenstone-

not at all unhappy with the results

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=635&pictureid=8308

[Dave Suponski]

Glad it worked out for you Rick. Sure not going to have to worry about oxidation thats for sure..

[Brian Dudley]

Here is a photo of the lefever i originally posted about with the split stock repaired. Refer to page 1 of this thread for before photo.

50406

[Rick Losey]

Great work as always

[Eric Eis]

That's a great job, very nice.

[Chad Hefflinger]

If you know someone that has a machine shop or is in the cutting tool industry, they could most likely get you used/scrap carbide endmills, drills or reamers that could be made to work at little to no cost. There are also carbide egg sinkers for fishing that can be bought in various weights and shapes that could work well also to replace the lead.

[Kirk Mckinney]

Here is a photo of the lefever i originally posted about with the split stock repaired. Refer to page 1 of this thread for before photo.

50406

Beautiful Wood !!!! Wow.. sorry im a amature woodworker.:)

[George Lang]

Great work Brian as usual. Can't wait to get it back home.