Given a choice hammer versus hammerless

[Craig Larter]

If you were given a choice between two equal condition guns a top lever hammer gun versus hammerless gun what would you choose? The hammer guns have beautiful sculptured hammers, a larger area for engraving plus the grade 3's and above have sculptured breech balls. The hammerless guns have lines that are more subdued and free of appendages. What would be you choose??

[John Truitt]

Hammer: both from esthetics and shooters perspective. Hammerguns are much easier to work on if something fails.
IMO there is nothing like a Parker hammergun.

[Brian Dudley]

In higher grades, i would take a hammer gun.

That meaning grade 3 or higher. Especially in the higher grades.

But talking about grade 3 guns, i think the hammer guns had a lot more work put into them than the hammerless guns.

[Mills Morrison]

Hammerless.

[Rick Losey]

chose???????

heaven forbid :shock:



i have shot more hammer guns lately - my first gun was a single barrel hammer gun-

and I bought a nice back action hammer gun for hunting 30 years ago - before damascus was "safe" again

and i love taking one into woodcock covers - since i am not going to shoot it that much

for looking at - or clays - i'll take hammers

but if you are serious - one gun for all my shooting- hunting included- on cold nasty days or when it gets fast

there is a reason internal hammers won out

[Craig Larter]

I agree hammerless guns are more efficient weapons but what about pure esthetics. I think hammer guns are the pinnacle.

[Rick Losey]

no argument here on that

[Greg Baehman]

Make mine a D-Grade hammer, preferably a 20, but would settle for a 12 w/30" bbls. and a fishtail top lever. I've been searching for one in all-original condition ever since I passed on the one Al Zinn offered a few years back :banghead: in hopes that one with a tad more condition would surface. But, as of today, if that Parker has been offered, it has eluded me.

[John Davis]

Hammer, Lifter.

[Craig Larter]

The gun buyer of 1900 that was considering a grade 3 picked the hammerless gun 20 to 1. I wonder if we had the same choice today if the selection of hammerless over hammer would be the same ratio?

[greg conomos]

I like hammer guns fine, but it's hard to ignore what's posted above - by 1900 very few people wanted hammer guns at all.

Today, even the richest buyers seldom choose hammer guns.

So what do we know that hundreds of thousands of buyers over the past 116+ years didn't?

[Daryl Corona]

Hammer guns all the way. Now that being said I favor hammer guns for targets but for hunting, especially upland birds, the hammerless has the slight edge in safety for me. I lucked into a grade 3 underlifter 12, 30" tubes, in pristine condition which I acquired from one of our esteemed members. A prettier gun was never made.

My desire for a 20ga. hammergun was satiated when I ran across a 30" Wm. Ford Birmingham gun. It's not a Parker but it's really sexy and handles like a dream.

[wayne goerres]

They all have hammers. Its just a matter of where they put them. I prefer mine on the outside of the gun.

[charlie cleveland]

the hammerless would be my choice...the lifter hammer is next in line...charlie

[Dean Romig]

I own about an equal number of both and they both have their own charm. For me the jury's still out... and may always be.






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[Harold Lee Pickens]

Hammer guns for sporting clays, but hammerless for hunting, like my friend Daryl. Shot sporting clays this morning with my little Manton 20 ga hammer gun w/ 30" barrels, and really enjoy it. Everyone else was shooting high dollar sporting clays guns with ported barrels, extended choke tubes, adjustable combs and butts--hell you cant miss with those guns. They cant understand why I" handicap" myself with these old guns, but everyone sure wanted to shoot it.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Of course I am going to go with the hammer gun, here is a photo of a grade 3 lifter with Laminated steel barrels, 28" in 20 gauge, Gary

[Rich Anderson]

I have a soft spot for hammer guns especially for target shooting. Last year I found a W.R. Pape 28ga hammer gun. I have a Parker 16ga lifter that's fun to shoot and the comments on the clays course make me smile.

If the gun was to be used mostly as a hunting gun then I would go hammerless. I have hunted with a hammer gun on a preserve by myself and it was uncomfortable to me from a safety stand point. I have fallen in the grouse woods a couple of times and if that were to happen with a cocked hammer gun it could be disastrous.

[Dean Romig]

Same with a hammerless Rich... you never know what's going to happen when you fall with a loaded gun in your hands. The existence of a safety switch doesn't necessarily make the gun safe.... Anything can happen when you fall with a loaded gun.

An open gun is always a safe gun.






.

[Rick Losey]

safety is always a concern - which is why I voted hammerless if i could only have one

hunting over a pointing dog with external hammers - in carefully chosen covers is fun, where I have good footing and can cock them as I pass the dogs

and I open the gun if i do not shoot and need to relax the hammers

I do want to try a hammer gun in a duck blind, a much safer set up than most upland environments IMHO, I am cleaning up a 3 frame 32" 10 ga grade 2 top lever for the up coming season

a nice light Henri Pieper
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=576&pictureid=7419

[greg conomos]

I'm still kinda laughing over all the 'hammer' replies....white man speak with forked tongue...because in just about any public auction, or classified ad, we see hammerless guns selling for notably more than hammer guns. It's true that they didn't make as many hammer guns in higher grades and smaller bores, but still....hammerless guns (Parker to be exact) bring more money which must offer some insight as to what people really prefer.

[Rick Losey]

I'm still kinda laughing over all the 'hammer' replies....white man speak with forked tongue...because in just about any public auction, or classified ad, we see hammerless guns selling for notably more than hammer guns. It's true that they didn't make as many hammer guns in higher grades and smaller bores, but still....hammerless guns (Parker to be exact) bring more money which must offer some insight as to what people really prefer.

guess I don't understand your point- most people buy "hammerless"

can't argue there, most folks here obviously still would

so- all those who would chose a external hammer gun are wrong, not entitled to a choice? must follow the masses???

the question was which would an individual would chose - not what must we collectively chose

[Jack Damon]

Hammerless. No interest what-so-ever in hammer guns.

[greg conomos]

"the question was which would an individual would chose - not what must we collectively chose "

I'm certainly not telling any individual what they must prefer...just noting that if we look at the replies on this thread - which are overwhelmingly 'pro-hammer', they don't gibe with the reality of what we really see people doing. It's entirely possible that, by sheer chance, we just happened to have an inordinate number of 'hammer' guys responding to this thread. But it would be reasonable to expect the replies to this thread to mirror the Parker populace in general.

It's kinda like how Richard Nixon won the Presidency with one of the largest popular votes in history. Yet in 1974 you could hardly find anyone who had voted for him.

[Mark Garrett]

If I have a choice , same grade same condition Parker , Hammer gun any day . If I could only have one gun to shoot , it would be a hammerless.

[Robin Lewis]

Asking which I would choose.... a small gauge hammer lifter. Asking which I shoot will get a different answer. Ask me what car I would choose and I would answer a BMW Z8 but ask me what I drive and that would be a Toyota Tacoma pickup.

My point is that the facts you see in this thread and what reality may be doesn't need to collateral. The question was almost asking about "your dream gun", and while we dreaming about something, we are not limited by availability, cost or even reality.

I'll take a hammer gun.

[Todd Kaltenbach]

Hammer lifter. That's what I normally hunt with.

[Rick Losey]

But it would be reasonable to expect the replies to this thread to mirror the Parker populace in general.
.

not really - its simply a measure of who wants to reply- not a scientific sampling of the Parker population as a whole

[Dean Romig]

Ask me what car I would choose and I would answer a BMW Z8 but ask me what I drive and that would be a Toyota Tacoma pickup.

The question was almost asking about "your dream gun", and while we dreaming about something, we are not limited by availability, cost or even reality.

Maybe I'll just take a Viper... screw the BMW.

Robin, this is more like what you told me an hour ago......:whistle:





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[Rich Anderson]

Dean I agree that falling with ANY loaded gun is problematic but I think having external hammers could be more of a problem regarding a discharge than a hammerless gun would. After all with the hammerless gun the trigger still needs to be engaged.

[greg conomos]

I think what these results mean is we all would love to have a small bore, fancy hammer Parker. I know I would. But the reality is that most of the hammer Parkers out there are low-ish grade 12 and 10 gauge guns and they are not at the top of the heap for most.

[Daryl Corona]

I think what these results mean is we all would love to have a small bore, fancy hammer Parker. I know I would. But the reality is that most of the hammer Parkers out there are low-ish grade 12 and 10 gauge guns and they are not at the top of the heap for most.

I think you are missing the point of the OP. The dozen or so replies to this thread don't represent the 1300 or so members we have in the PGCA. To me even the "lowly" grade 2 is a treasure in workmanship and design. All I know is my grade 3 lifter is priced right up there with a grade 3 hammerless. To me it is a Parker that you don't see very often, especially in the condition it is in, which makes it special to me. To each his own.

[Craig Larter]

Thanks everyone for your responses great discussion which is what the forum is about. I agree from the functionality angle the hammerless rules. I believe that is why they way outsold hammer guns after the introduction of the hammerless. The hammer gun became a functional relic after the introduction of the Parker hammerless. My original question was more about esthetics and which gun do you feel is more esthetically pleasing. I find them equally appealing but would take the hammer gun since they are much harder to find especially in the higher grades. We are lucky as collectors to have such interesting choices.

[Rich Anderson]

They might not be all grade 3 and above but ALL hammer guns are special. If you really want a small bore you will most likely look to an English maker. My 28 is a W.R. Pape and the 20 is a Boss, nice guns to be sure BUT I wouldn't trade my grade 1 16ga lifter or the straight grip 32in 16ga top lever for either one of them. Hammer guns are just special. When Parker went hammerless I wish they would have kept the side lock action.

[greg conomos]

Some of the gunsmiths on this site could give a way better assessment than I, but it seems to me the sidelock aspect of hammer guns result in stocks with much thinner wood in places and are therefore more prone to cracking issues. Am I just imagining that...?

[CraigThompson]

I grew up with hammerless so that's my preference but that's not to say I don't have a couple hammer guns .

If I were only able to have one I think I'd like a 10 gauge DH on a #2 frame with 30" barrels . But I would want it to be in the 90% or better condition .

[Eric Estes]

For me hammer guns of any grade are more aesthetically pleasing. Love em.

[greg conomos]

Kinda reminds me of all the guys who declare they prefer women with 'curves' but then you can't help notice they spend a lot more time looking at Andie McDowell than Roseanne Barr....!

[Bill Murphy]

Hammer gun for sure. I know that hammer guns lost their popularity almost immediately when the hammerless Parkers were introduced. However, my little 0 frame 16 was made years later, in 1917. I would love to know who ordered that one.

[Daryl Corona]

Kinda reminds me of all the guys who declare they prefer women with 'curves' but then you can't help notice they spend a lot more time looking at Andie McDowell than Roseanne Barr....!

Comparing McDowell to Barr:eek: is like comparing a Purdey to a Mossberg 500. Yeah, they are both guns but which one would you take to a driven grouse shoot?
A better comparison for different body styles would be Andy McDowell vs. Kirstie Allie. Yep, I'd do 'em both.:whistle:

[William Davis]

Hammer for sure. Although the individual gun makes a great difference. I have a couple of Parkers I like better than others that would sit on a for sale table longer than the rest. I just like them that's all.

Current two I like best are hammers. 10 G, Grade 2 and 16 G, O Grade. Have a 12 G, Grade 2 I am getting to like more as I use it.

William

[Bill Holcombe]

Comparing McDowell to Barr:eek: is like comparing a Purdey to a Mossberg 500. Yeah, they are both guns but which one would you take to a driven grouse shoot?
A better comparison for different body styles would be Andy McDowell vs. Kirstie Allie. Yep, I'd do 'em both.:whistle:

And that right there is another reason to never shoot a mossberg.

As for the primary question, hammerless for me hands down. While I love the ball grips which are much more common on hammer guns, everything else about the look of hammer less guns appeals to me more than a hammer gun.