Frustrated with Repair Work

[Paul Wilczynski]

This winter I purchased a Parker Reproduction 28 gauge two barrel set. After using the 28inch barrels for about 75 rounds the insert on the doll's head started to protrude. I could see that the beveling on the dolls head that held it in place was peeling back. Also the screw holding it was beat up. I returned the barrel to the dealer I bought it from at my cost for shipping for repair. After a month or so it was return at no cost. I looked to have a new insert only. Testing it with snap caps it failed again right away. I returned the complete gun again (they paid shipping) and about 7 or 8 weeks later it was returned. This time I could see a new screw, insert and the dolls head seemed to have some work done on it (welding). Now after putting about 200 rounds through it has failed again. This time the when I ejected the shells the insert was lost and it looks like the head of the screw has snapped off. It is going back to the dealer again at my cost for shipping. I am asked if there was a better gunsmith to be used and was told that his was capable of repair it. Of that I am not sure.

The question I have for the group is "can this problem be fixed?" Is the dealer leading me on hoping I just give up on it and his problem goes away? This gun was a $6,000 investment that I can not afford to write off.
Thanks for your thoughts.

[Mark Landskov]

Brad Bachelder has a plan where a setscrew is installed that limits the travel of the ejector blades, thus, preventing the ejectors from striking the the little insert plate.

[Bill Murphy]

Brad's solution or a complete deactivation of the ejectors are the two best solutions. Replacement of the ejector springs in the forend with much weaker springs is another solution. The cause of the failure in the first place is probably the activating of the ejectors without shells in the barrels to cushion the blow on the plate.

[Brian Dudley]

This problem happens on repros and meriden guns. Seems to be most common on the very small frame sizes where the dolls head is not very tall.

The best solution is to notch the kicker shafts and put a set screw in the bottom of the lug (like the extractor guns have). This allows the kickers to stop before striking the stop plate. The plate can be left in. This is the process that ithers have mentioned above.

[Pat Dugan]

I had this same problem, attached is the repair that
Has worked well,

Bill Schwartz did repair

[Bill Murphy]

If the plate is not destroyed, I would prefer the installation of a large screw that interrupts the ejector travel before it hits the plate.

[Tony Guccioni]

So glad I only have 12 gauge guns ...

[Pat Dugan]

I would like to see a picture of the repair method
Using large screw to stop the ejector travel, seems it might be easier to do???

[Brian Dudley]

If you want to see what it looks like, look at any extractor gun. It operates the same way.

[Pat Dugan]

So , you would take ejector rods out, cut
A little flat area in each, reinstall, and then drill hole and
Tread screw to new tapped hole, and it sound like permanent end to problem.

Bryan, it's this correct???

[Brian Dudley]

Yes. And you woild set the stop point to be before the kickers hit the plate.

[Paweł Janusz]

If this is Connecticut reproduction then I'm sorry but it's a bad news. It's like trying to fix ferrari that was build in China on Volkswagen rabbit frame. Syzyfowa praca

[Pat Dugan]

My problem shown were the .410 barrels from CSMC
They sent me new stop plates and said they were made out of better steel, but after the 2nd one they provided
Bent like aluminum, I gave up and sent the gun to Bill.
Since then I have shot at least 1000 shells through
The barrels at skeet, no problem. Others that have seen the quality of these barrels, remark that they are great, with the exception of the stop plate.

[Tony Guccioni]

If this is Connecticut reproduction then I'm sorry but it's a bad news. It's like trying to fix ferrari that was build in China on Volkswagen rabbit frame. Syzyfowa praca

WoW ...

Is CSMC something to avoid ?

( have been lusting over the A10 )

[Dean Romig]

I've never heard of any CSMC guns with inherent problems.





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[Paweł Janusz]

The whole secret behind well made gun is that it's parts are well fitted and properly hardened. The reason? Gun barrels can't be over harden as a matter effect they need to be flexible to take the force of explosion otherwise they will break, bores can be surface hardened inside to increase wear but core has to be soft, then the look parts got to be hardened for wear too, action is a same story, it has to be soft core to take shock but stiff and wear resistant at the same time, it refers to all gun parts. What that means: Complicated process of manufacturing: 1- machine parts from proper carbon content material ( barrels: some manufacturers have their own secret mix that allow for it to be light and thin and resistant to wear and force - like beretta), parts are machined and left oversize. 2 - harder and temper them. 3 - grind them to fit. But that puts manufacturing process in to a serious slowdown, now only a really big facilities can afford to do it and stand up to demand of their marketing. Beretta, browning, krieghoff, kollar, and passionate gunmakers can afford to do that, process require skilled hands and interuption. What we see on market in recent years is guns ugly of beauty full that are produced without proper hardening procedure and without skill hands, why? Because this way small factory can output huge quantity of gun a month. Huglu, csmc, and many more are machined to almost perfect fit put together, raw engraved or electro ethed, coated confident huge price tag is added to blind customer is applied and then trouble starts: why does it fall a part, why can't it be repaired, why doesn't it shoot right, why wood cracked and factory will not fix it properly, maybe replaced but then it's happened again. My advise: get money back find original, give it to a reputable gunsmith with reference who know the difference between renovation and restoration and you will have working and good looking gun forever and for less or buy gun from one of old and biggest gun makers. That is why csmc is buying all old guns out of the market.

[Richard Flanders]

If I needed a new stop plate for a Repro I'd fabricate one using a piece of a 'retired' hand saw blade, which I have a good supply of for making eskimo style ulu knives. That's the toughest steel there is, hard but still flexible and drillable. You'd never bend that stuff in that application.

[Brian Dudley]

The issue with these guns is not so much the plate, it is the dovetail cut in the rib extension.

[Richard Flanders]

So, the rib extension steel is too soft and the dovetail fails?

[Dean Romig]

Yes Richard, that's what happens.





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[Brian Dudley]

The points at the cor ers of the dovetail are pretty thin. And the smaller the frame size, the shorter the dollshead is. So there is less surface to absorb the shock of the kickers hitting the plate.

[Richard Flanders]

I can't envision a good cure for that other than the suggested stop screw.

[Paul Wilczynski]

I want to thank everyone who posted idea's on how to fix my problem. Last week I sent the gun to Brad Bachelder for repair. When it comes back (in about six weeks) I will let everyone know how it turned out.

[Sam Ogle]

Earlier this year, my 28 Ga Reproduction had the dolls-head extension come loose, and I thought it probably couldn't be fixed, until I read a comment from Brad Bachelder.
Long story short; I sent it to Brad..........he fixed it........I shoot it all the time now, and no more problems.
Here's to Brad!
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE

[Paul Wilczynski]

Here is my update on having the 28 gauge fixed. (got it back sooner than I thought I would)
Picked up the gun today. Since I live only a couple hours away I was able to go to Brad's business to get it. Brad personally reviewed the work with me and I am very satisfied. Since the fix is to the ejectors on the barrel, and that I have a two barrel set, he inspected the other barrel and said it looked ok but that I should keep an eye on it before it fails. I will probably sent it to him next winter for the fix. He even checked out some other potential problems that can plague a reproduction. At a very reasonable price I have a gun I can use again without fear of failure. A big thanks to Brad!

[Pat Dugan]

Please take picture of the screw stop installed and your reactions after you shoot it and if you think the ejector kick out the shells as well, I know his fix is the best

I too am getting 3 28repro barells done and 3 more the next time as I get my shipping case back from Bill
Schwartz

[Tony Guccioni]

You title this thread, 'Frustrated with Repair Work'.

My Repro has been in the repair shop, for nearly 3 years .....

( am a very 'easy going' sorta fella. Lol )

[Phillip Carr]

I can not imagine waiting 3 years for a repair. If you have a gun in a shop that long for a repair, not some fine custom gun job there is a good chance the Smith lacks skill to be working on your Parker. Too many real good quality guys to choose from.
Many good Gun Smiths understandably will have a backlog of work, but a 3 year wait runs up a big red flag to me that something is just not right.

[Dean Romig]

Get your gun out of that shop right now.

If it is within a day's driving time you should go there personally. Give the guy a heads up and tell him when you'll be there, but be firm.





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[John Cinkoske]

I hope the smith hasn't sold it... :nono:

[Pat Dugan]

Put ATF on notice too if he won't release back to you

[Tony Guccioni]

Briefly ....
I'm in Australia and it would seem no-one except this particular 'smith has EVEN seen a Parker, let alone worked on one.
'My man' is an ex Brit, who worked in the States for a while and saw more than a few Parkers cross his bench. ( so he says )
He has had more than a few problems of a non firearm nature, since landing in OZ and my gun is certainly a damn cantankerous b**tard .... ( single trigger issue )
Am due to contact him again for an update.

[Tony Guccioni]

( double post )

[Paul Wilczynski]

A brief follow-up on how the repaired barrel is doing. I used the 28 gauge yesterday at my local gun club and it performed well. no problem with ejecting the hulls. as you can see from the attached photo, the upper barrel is my 28 inch that was repaired and the lower barrel is the 26 inch that was not repaired. The set screw that was added to limit the ejector travel can be seem.

[Dean Romig]

If it was a true flat head screw it would look exactly like an extractor gun.





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[Brian Dudley]

If it was a true flat head screw it would look exactly like an extractor gun.

I was thinking the same thing, but i would get accused of nit-picking.

[Brad Bachelder]

We are not trying to emulate extractor barrels. We are concerned with function only. Original stop screws are way too soft for this application. We use a hardened stainless steel screw, it is the only one to hold up to the pounding. the recess allows us to tighten it to maximum torque.

Brad

[Dean Romig]

Humble apologies Brad.:bowdown:




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[Brad Bachelder]

Not needed,but thanks Dean.

Brad

[Jack Selman]

Is this a frequent problem with Repro 20's? To date I have not encountered this issue.

[Pat Dugan]

I have 3 20 ga repros, and they have been shot a lot
But no problem like with 28 and the 410 repros failing
With ejector stops, I am going to get 6 fixed like the way Brian does it

[Brian Dudley]

The whole secret behind well made gun is that it's parts are well fitted and properly hardened. The reason? Gun barrels can't be over harden as a matter effect they need to be flexible to take the force of explosion otherwise they will break, bores can be surface hardened inside to increase wear but core has to be soft, then the look parts got to be hardened for wear too, action is a same story, it has to be soft core to take shock but stiff and wear resistant at the same time, it refers to all gun parts. What that means: Complicated process of manufacturing: 1- machine parts from proper carbon content material ( barrels: some manufacturers have their own secret mix that allow for it to be light and thin and resistant to wear and force - like beretta), parts are machined and left oversize. 2 - harder and temper them. 3 - grind them to fit. But that puts manufacturing process in to a serious slowdown, now only a really big facilities can afford to do it and stand up to demand of their marketing. Beretta, browning, krieghoff, kollar, and passionate gunmakers can afford to do that, process require skilled hands and interuption. What we see on market in recent years is guns ugly of beauty full that are produced without proper hardening procedure and without skill hands, why? Because this way small factory can output huge quantity of gun a month. Huglu, csmc, and many more are machined to almost perfect fit put together, raw engraved or electro ethed, coated confident huge price tag is added to blind customer is applied and then trouble starts: why does it fall a part, why can't it be repaired, why doesn't it shoot right, why wood cracked and factory will not fix it properly, maybe replaced but then it's happened again. My advise: get money back find original, give it to a reputable gunsmith with reference who know the difference between renovation and restoration and you will have working and good looking gun forever and for less or buy gun from one of old and biggest gun makers. That is why csmc is buying all old guns out of the market.




I see you took this opinion right to CSMC when you posted this review on their Facebook page.

"Overpriced junk, engraving etched instead hand cut, metal soft, no hand fitting of parts, customers confused about their service, barrels fall a part. In overall guns look nice at first but their quality don't match price tag at all. It's PRODUCED custom gun! Like huge junk! This is what customer feel and opinion of experienced gunsmith with full machinning bacground that is passionate of fine firearms, quality precision and true hand skill and don't need to bs to make money."

[Paweł Janusz]

Simply sad as is as customers are confused about specific manufacturer that offers reproduction firearms at very spice prices

[Pat Dugan]

Main reason CSMC quit making or offering
.410 Parker barells was the ejector stop plates
That were made out of a soft metal that bent after
200 or so shells and the poorly designed place that they fit into the the end of the barells, after they sent 4 replacement stop plates that were supposed to be made out of a better metal, I sent to a super Gunsmith to get
Fixed.I told them the.problem and they never acknowledged there was a problem. POOR customer
Service

[John Kipp]

I'm a newbie to this site and just bought my first 28ga PR...be kind !!
It was suggested I look up this thread as a precautionary fix.
I will be contacting Brian or Brad to be proactive :)

[Bill Murphy]

Can one of our gunsmiths address the possibility of installing weaker ejector springs on 28 gauge Repros? I have never had my forends apart, but maybe someone would post a picture of what is going on inside.

[Dean Romig]

It’s unimaginable that a facility like CSMC couldn’t source harder steel for the ejector stop plate... heck it PB could do it about 100 years ago I guess it shouldn’t be too hard to do today.





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[Brian Dudley]

The issue is not the plate. It is the material that the rib extension is made of.

[Paul Wilczynski]

I'm the guy who started this discussion topic a while ago. The work done by Bachelder has fixed the problem of the plate flying out. You will find that the fix stops the ejectors from hitting the problem plate, So the ejection stroke is about 75% of what it was originally. In the last few months though my left barrel ejector has become a extractor. Has have yet to approach Bachelder about this because I do not want to give up my parker for now. With the possibility of quail hunting this winter in the south I will probably wait till late spring to get it back to them.

[Paweł Janusz]

Need gunsmith that uses brain?

[Bill Murphy]

Using the extractor style stop screw, we can make a pigeon gun (no doll's head) barrel WITH ejectors. That sounds like an interesting project for someone.

[Scot Cardillo]

Make sure you take plenty of pics as you make progress on the project, Mr. Murphy :bigbye:


..but, what about the unsightly pit left in the frame? Where the dolls head used to be..how do you make that look not terrible?

[Dean Romig]

There is no reason to alter or remove the extractor doll’s head.





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[edgarspencer]

I am not sure of the chronology when Parker made the statement that dry firing was acceptable, and when the ejector was an added option, but while there’s argument about the effect off dry firing on hammers, I don’t think there’s any doubt that dry firing an ejector gun without using snap caps is a very bad idea.

[Dean Romig]

For everyone’s information - the only Parkers that can be dry fired without harm are the hammerless guns. The plungers or firing pins on Parker hammer guns are as susceptible to breaking as any other gun with ‘floating’ firing pins.






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[Bill Murphy]

In reply to MD GSP, I was referring to making an ejector gun out of a true pigeon gun, which has no void in the receiver for a doll's head. Another answer to his comment is "It should be no problem for a good gunsmith to fill the void left by the doll's head in the receiver."

[Paweł Janusz]

This winter I purchased a Parker Reproduction 28 gauge two barrel set. After using the 28inch barrels for about 75 rounds the insert on the doll's head started to protrude. I could see that the beveling on the dolls head that held it in place was peeling back. Also the screw holding it was beat up. I returned the barrel to the dealer I bought it from at my cost for shipping for repair. After a month or so it was return at no cost. I looked to have a new insert only. Testing it with snap caps it failed again right away. I returned the complete gun again (they paid shipping) and about 7 or 8 weeks later it was returned. This time I could see a new screw, insert and the dolls head seemed to have some work done on it (welding). Now after putting about 200 rounds through it has failed again. This time the when I ejected the shells the insert was lost and it looks like the head of the screw has snapped off. It is going back to the dealer again at my cost for shipping. I am asked if there was a better gunsmith to be used and was told that his was capable of repair it. Of that I am not sure.

The question I have for the group is "can this problem be fixed?" Is the dealer leading me on hoping I just give up on it and his problem goes away? This gun nythinwas a $6,000 investment that I can not afford to write off.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Anything can be repaired, just need proper understanding, pm me at myarkebuz@yahoo.com

[Bill Murphy]

Pawel's post did not address the question. I will thank other posters to continue this discussion without Pawel's disruptive comments.

[Paweł Janusz]

What is disrupting, i state that it can be fixed properly and offer contact, shame on you Americans, no gun restoration for you!

[edgarspencer]

My experience is if you want to move to America, and practice your trade for Americans, you would be better served if you left your Eastern European demeanor at the door. Only speaking for myself, but I think having more choices who to do work for me is great, but manners are as important as skill.

[Scot Cardillo]

What is disrupting, i state that it can be fixed properly and offer contact, shame on you Americans, no gun restoration for you!

Is this for real :biglaugh:




Don’t believe everything you hear on the news. Politicians have sold manufacturing out in the US, to be sure. But, don’t delude your european(?) self into believing manufacturing, and by virtue skill, is non-existent in the US. That would be a foolish (and counterproductive) mindset if you are seeking to begin restoration or repair work.

:usa:


I hope we’ll learn more of what you have to offer :)

[Dean Romig]

Mr. Janusz,

Are you familiar with the "proper" methods of color case hardening - a radical diversion from the improper blued frame, hammers, screws etc. that you show on your thread?

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=30865





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[Paweł Janusz]

O yes, well you forget one think: somebody who got skills to restore firearm to a point where its difficult to say if it was restored can make a great living without offering that service to customers but utilizing it in tons of other ways offering independence and freedom, I'm here being nice simply offering my help and getting slapped around for that. You can keep your advise to your self as it don't mach what this country is about.

[Dean Romig]

I wasn't "slapping" anybody around but simply asked a very reasonable question. No inference at all, just trying to be nice.

Incidentally, I think I know very well what this country, the United States of America, is all about.... Freedom of Expression is only one of those things this country is about. And you are free to express your thoughts as long as you don't insult any of the nice people here.





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[Paweł Janusz]

What a hypocrisy

[Paweł Janusz]

I think im done with parker pages you guys can fix all your fancy guns your self, at affordable prices.

[Dean Romig]

No, please stay.

Sorry if you feel that you've been mistreated.





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[Paweł Janusz]

Thsnk you Mr. Romig

[Sam Ogle]

I shot the hell out of a 28 gauge for skeet. The Dolls Head insert went bad. At the time, I asked Brian Dudley to fix it. He did, It works, nuff said.
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE

[Paweł Janusz]

I will think that ejectors shell not hit it in normal operation when tuned right and then the plate functions only as a lock to keep them in place.

[Dean Romig]

I will think that ejectors shell not hit it in normal operation when tuned right and then the plate functions only as a lock to keep them in place.


I think the only way to accomplish that would be with a stop screw as others have suggested.

The travel of the ejectors otherwise is only limited by the stop plate...

How else could it be tuned? If you have a suggestion I'm sure a lot of folks here would like to know what you would suggest.






.

[Paweł Janusz]

As long proper understanding of mechanism is done then a concept can be implemented and thinks will not go bad, that is why i guarantee all my work.

[Mike Franzen]

Mr. Janusz do you do case coloring of metal? Do you have any pictures of your work. I looked at the album you posted and if you recolored the barrels they look good.

[Dean Romig]

Yes, I like those Twist barrels too. Did you do them?





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[Paweł Janusz]

Yes. This is my work. Yes i do case coloring traditional way,
87108
87109
87110
87111
87112

[joe breda]

Personally, I like the other fix.
A deeper dove tail.
I’d be concerned with the Ejector beating against the set screw with the second fix mentioned. May peen the hell out of the Ejector rod and the set screw.
That may cause internal issues in the future ?

[Dean Romig]

Right Joe - to the point where you wouldn't be able to remove the screw if you needed to without major surgery.





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