Annie Oakley's Parker

[Mark Vollinger]

This may not as newsworthy as other Parkers at auction.

Annie Oakley's 20 gauge GH recently sold at Brian Lebels Old West Auction, lot 153 hammered at $195,500. A lot of lettuce for a GH 20 gauge. Julia's auctioned her BHE 12 for $28K.

Provenance still matters.

[Dean Romig]

Why the disparity in prices I wonder. One would think her B would draw higher bids than a lowly G... I wonder if the available documentation on these guns determined the difference in price.
Gould it be that a 20 bore grade 2 trumps a 12 bore grade 5???





.

[John Davis]

I think the BHE 12 actually lettered to Frank Butler and the barrels were cut. But we may be talking about a different gun. John

[Dean Romig]

I seem to remember the same provenance John.






.

[Mark Vollinger]

The Autry museum in LA has Annie Oakley 16 gauge, LC Smith? on display. It appears to have been used well. Shows OK in the Wild West collection.

OFF Track - Colt Collection
Here are a few salient facts and background on the collection. Maybe mostly old news....

The Autry in LA now owns the Colt collection. It has a small room with few displays and no context or history. It displays a fraction of the collection A terrible job in historical education. Preservation work, doubtful

Hartford Courant Reported in 1986

In 1986, David White, director of the State Library Museum, traded 290 pieces worth $2Millon for seven guns and a CANE ? to a Theodore Hutcheson of Chattanooga. Must have been a helluva cane. Please give Theodore a hearty salutation when you see him, theif!

In October 1984, the museum traded three guns to Philip R. Phillips of Bartlesville, Okla., for two revolvers. The board's minutes said a $50,000 donation by Mr. Phillips had nothing to do with the deal, but Mr. White ''admitted'' it was ''an obvious enticement to accept the trade,'' Colonel Forst said. "Gee really obvious" I'll pay to steal

In September 1977, the museum traded nine guns valued at a total of $15,500 to R.L. Wilson, of Hadlyme, Conn., a well-known gun collector and expert, for a rifle that Mr. Wilson said was of comparable value. The police called the trade a historical and a financial loss to the state.
Please Give R.l. Wilson the single finger salute when you see him, if he is alive.

Same as folks who stole art in WWII, statue of limitations?






.

[Dean Romig]

I'd like to understand the terms of a gift or endowment to this museum...(?). Do they actually have the legal right to go trading away historical Guns and artifacts endowed to them. What about the obligations of the curators and BOD of the museum. I suspect such a museum's charter must speak to the obligations of these people, especially if it is a 501 C not for profit, educational institution.

Incidentally, what is "the" Colt Collection? Who's Colt collection? Which of the many fabulous Colt collections in private ownership?




.

[Bill Murphy]

Get yourself appointed to the board of any museum or collector organization and you can participate in the deaccessioning of any item in their collections. The safest way to prevent abuse of this system is to make a larger number of people responsible, with voting rights on the liquidation of collections or individual items.

[Bruce Day]

R L Wilson is alive and doing well, no doubt being the expert again and writing another book. He is a preacher's kid from small town Minnesota, went to Carleton College and now lives and writes in San Francisco, last I heard through a mutual acquaintance several months ago.

The NRA has sold off many guns donated to its museum, some to members of this forum. Donate 40 or 50 mil to the NRA , get placed on the board and change policies if you feel strongly enough about it.

Many museums sell off parts of collections when they need money, run out of space , don't like the article or other reasons. Their ability to do so has been upheld by the courts many times.

[Mark Vollinger]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;197218]I'd like to understand the terms of a gift or endowment to this museum...(?). Do they actually have the legal right to go trading away historical Guns and artifacts endowed to them. What about the obligations of the curators and BOD of the museum. I suspect such a museum's charter must speak to the obligations of these people, especially if it is a 501 C not for profit, educational institution.

Incidentally, what is "the" Colt Collection? Who's Colt collection? Which of the many fabulous Colt collections in private ownership?


Dean:
Colt Firearms sold the collection circa 1957 to the CT State Library. It was under their curator ship that these unfortunate lapses in ethics for greed resulted in the loss of critical pieces of history.

I spoke to a curator at the Autry four years ago, and at that time his attitude was pretty blase in terms of the collection and any parameters; display, historical education and or preservation.
The teachers for school groups often discourage kids from spending time with all those "bad guns", rather than education on part of history...
It is anyone's guess as to how the collection has been "managed" since to prevent more "disappearance" of items. You just don't see much of the collection on display, all on shelves.

[Dean Romig]

I would think the trustees or BOD would be obligated, when in need of operating funds, (rather than personal gain) to offer such items up for public auction in order to realize the highest revenue...






.

[Kevin McCormack]

R. L. Wilson is a regular table holder once again at our Maryland Arms Collector's Association (MACA) aka the "Old Baltimore Show" every March.

The NRA has guns in inventory storage they have not even thought about displaying at the museum yet due to space and temporal considerations. Within walking distance of my home, I stop by there at least once every 2 weeks to savor the roar of the Rangoon oil and the smell of the Circassian. Except for Tony Galazan's guns, I had never seen a Fox gun displayed there, ever. When they shipped some of their best guns out to the newly-opened Bass Pro Shop mega store in Springfield MO, they backfilled the display cases with some of the stuff they've had squired away for years. Lo and behold, they now have on display not one but TWO Fox cutaway guns, one 12 and one 20! (Who knew?).

Bruce's comments on the courts upholding the right of museums to sell off all or parts of collections pretty well 'center punch' the situation. (Museums call it "de-accessioning").

The venerable Corcoran Gallery of Art in Washington DC did this last year, with robust local and federal support. Operating budgets became the victim of poor planning by the BOD; in the end the museum itself faltered but at least the art was preserved for future generations.

[Bruce Day]

Owners of nice art, guns, pens, whatever their passion often feel that by donating them to a museum and taking the deduction they are preserving the item so all can appreciate forever more. It's never really worked that way.

Things left in families have disappeared into drug money for the third generation, or power bills if left to museums because insurance rates went up. You can't control the future.

Kevin, is R L selling books , paper , or back to guns? He is interesting and knowledgable

[Kevin McCormack]

He is selling mainly paper and his numerous books; he has guns on his table (vintage Colts & Winchesters) but I think they are under the auspices of his fellow table holders. (I'm not sure he's allowed to sell firearms any more).

[Dean Romig]

The Pererson exhibition, I believe, was stipulated never to be 'deassesed' and that every piece was to be displayed.

If someone knows differently, please correct me.






.

[Bill Murphy]

An "Annie Oakley" gun that sold for a very high price a couple of years ago was, in fact, not an "Annie Oakley" gun, but a Frank Butler gun. I wonder if the new owner realizes that?

[Jerry Harlow]

This may not as newsworthy as other Parkers at auction.

Annie Oakley's 20 gauge GH recently sold at Brian Lebels Old West Auction, lot 153 hammered at $195,500. A lot of lettuce for a GH 20 gauge. Julia's auctioned her BHE 12 for $28K.

Provenance still matters.

Now if I had $200k to spend on toys would I want Annie's 20 gauge or a 1970 four-speed Hemi Cuda?

I know I would be riding in style.

[Buddy Marson]

Any idea as to who engraved Annie's BHE serial no. 117432. This is the gun with a picture of Annie on the sides?

[CraigThompson]

Bruce's comments on the courts upholding the right of museums to sell off all or parts of collections pretty well 'center punch' the situation. (Museums call it "de-accessioning").

The venerable Corcoran Gallery of Art in Washington DC did this last year, with robust local and federal support. Operating budgets became the victim of poor planning by the BOD; in the end the museum itself faltered but at least the art was preserved for future generations.

Well I certainly have nothing important or overly rare in my accumulation but based on what I'm reading here none of my prized junk will be given to ANY museum or charitable or not for profit organization .

After my mother passed my father donated a validated James Madison card table to Montpelier . That still galls me the way those ingreats waste money !

[CraigThompson]

Now if I had $200k to spend on toys would I want Annie's 20 gauge or a 1970 four-speed Hemi Cuda?

I know I would be riding in style.

Neither , I'd get several nice Parkers and a 69 Chevy Z-28 with the 302DZ motor and four on the floor (fully restored of course).

On a side note I was sitting at the cross of main street and Madison road in Orange VA at about 8:30 AM Friday and the most lovely 28 or 29 Packard convertible with the rumble seat and golf bag door came riding by along with several other pre 1940 autos . I assume there was some sort of rally going on in the near vicinity this past weekend .

[Bruce Day]

Sometimes things are left in a family trust and then a semipermanent loan to an organization. That seems to work better provided that the family trustees are able to function rationally. Philmont Scout Ranch with which I am associated recently significantly increased size with the acquisition by semipermanent loan of the famous Chase Ranch and another smaller property.

[Drew Hause]

Annie at Pinehurst, date unknown. Between 1914 and 1922, Annie gave exhibitions and taught shooting at Pinehurst during the winter.The gun appears to be a small bore

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/409909439.jpg

The BHE SN 117432 ordered by Frank Butler in 1903, offered by James Julia auctions in 2009. Drop at heel: 2-3/8", drop at comb: 1-5/8". Weight: 7 lbs. 9 oz. LOP 14-1/4" with Silvers pad. No safety. Credit given for BH #107950.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/372219656.jpg

The engraved dog is a setter, possibly Dave

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/409916875.jpg