Question for small bore shooters.

[Craig Larter]

Being a life long waterfowl hunter I have always shot big guns. When I shoot a light small bore gun my muscle memory developed over 50 years pushes a light weight small bore gun way to fast. My swing with a light gun seems to degrade into a herky jerky movement which causes me to lose focus on the bird (clay) which results in a miss. If I slow down my move to the bird (clay) it seems to help smooth out my swing. Does anyone else find moving from a heavy gun to a light gun challenging or am I the only one? Any suggestions to help moving from a heavy gun to a light small bore or is just a matter of shooting the light gun for a while until you develop a feel for the gun? Thanks Craig

[Mark Callanan]

I would shoot some trap to get used to both guns..
i think that would help you get used to both

[Daryl Corona]

It's a learning curve Craig. I tend to shoot my smallbores better than my 12's but you have to "attack" the target somewhat like shooting live birds. A 30 or 32" smallbore will help somewhat but here is my approach.

With a heavier 12 or 10 you have a built in follow through with the weight of the gun. With a smallbore it helps (at least for me) to place my leading hand at the end of the forend and force that hand to control the barrels. Don't mount the gun until you have locked on to the target then make your move to the target using more of a swing through method which will generate enough momentum to keep those light barrels where you need them. You really have to concentrate to swing through the target to keep those lovely, light barrels moving.

If you think about it, that's really how you would shoot let's say a big rooster in S. Dakota. The bird flushes, you locate it and lock your focus on his head then butt, beak, bang. Lucy... dead bird. Fetch it up!

The best game you could practice at is shooting some skeet with a low gun. Don't worry you'll figure it out. If not I'm always in the market for another smallbore.:whistle:

[Paul Harm]

I even have trouble with my light 12bores. You're not alone.

[Bill Murphy]

Everyone I know who shoots well with light guns shoots a lot at clay targets, all kinds of clay targets. I make sure the gun has some sticky on the butt so it doesn't slide off after the first shot. Some of the best under six pound shooting I have done was with my Model 42 with a sticky pad. There is nothing inherently bad about a light gun, only that we are not used to it and the heavy gun helps us along.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I shoot my worse sporting clays scores with my 12 ga's, but I have never ever been duck/goose hunting. I grew up hunting grouse. I tend to prefer 16 and 20 ga's, never been much for 28 ga's.

[CraigThompson]

You wanna shoot the two little guns well , get yourself a decent shape VH 12 gauge on a #1 or #2 frame then send it to Kolar or Briley for a set of full length 20,28 and 410 tubes .

[Dean Romig]

Not that I am an especially good shot at all, I tend to do some of my best shooting when I don't have time to think about the mechanics of what I'm doing - call it 'instinctive' shooting or 'snap' shooting... although I really don't think I am a snap shooter. I come from behind and as the barrels pass the bird's head, or the clay target, I touch the trigger while I force the barrels to keep swinging through. But as Daryl says, placing your lead hand (forend hand) significantly farther out on the barrels - even beyond the end of the forend - will give you much greater control on swinging your barrels through your target without the jerky thing you describe. And shooting a lot of skeet would help tremendously, especially the long crossing shots provided by stations 3, 4, and 5.

Good Luck Craig - we know you can do it!






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[CraigThompson]

But as Daryl says, placing your lead hand (forend hand) significantly farther out on the barrels - even beyond the end of the forend - will give you much greater control on swinging your barrels through your target without the jerky thing you describe.

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The further out you put it the more it slows your swing . And you'll bind up quicker .

To each his own but my hand is generally back right in front of the receiver with a SxS or O/U, shooting skeet or trap and that other PITA game as well .
In years gone by a tubed Krieghoff K-32 i'd stay around 98.5% with the 28 and about 97% with the 410 . That was a 9 1/2 pound gun with the tubes . Now with my little Browning Superposed 410 I shoot about 90-92% and with the little Iver Johnson 410 Skeeter I do the same . The Browning weighs I think 7 1/2 pounds and the IJ weighs maybe 5 1/2 . With my little Superposed 28 as of late I've been breaking around 94-95% . I have no doubt that my averages would improve if I tubed the K-32 I have now , but the inclination to do so isn't that great anymore .

[Dean Romig]

The further out you put it the more it slows your swing . And you'll bind up quicker . To each his own.


Indeed - To each his own. Your experience has not been my experience - I was merely suggesting to Craig what has worked very well for me.






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[Mills Morrison]

The best thing to do is go shoot some clays and see what works for you. What works for some might not work for others and it is more a reflex than anything.

[Daryl Corona]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;195022]Indeed - To each his own. Your experience has not been my experience - I was merely suggesting to Craig what has worked very well for me.


Same here Dean. Craig L. was asking for suggestions for shooting a smallbore SxS, not an O/U. The two are VASTLY different in handling characteristics. If I tubed my K32 with 20ga. tubes I would certainly shoot a much higher score but it would feel like a club in my hands. That is not why I shoot a smallbore SxS. They are just plain sexy and fun to shoot. As I get older fun trumps score and if I score well with a 20 or 28 all the more fun.

[William Davis]

At the Southerns my shooting buddy and I always shoot the light guns one day. Put them away and go to the long heavy guns the next. They handle very different.

Yesterday on the Skeet range shot one round with 12 G Wingmaster Pump, Skeet barrel Pretty good too. Then another with its lighter Twin 20 G Skeet Wingmaster not so good. Settled down 3rd round with the 20 same score as the 12. Forward hand position on pumps is fixed if I had been able to move my left hand forward would have helped.

Light gun It's a different swing more forward hand driving. Pure fun nothing like a good smallbore Parker.

William

[Dean Romig]

Another thing that I have found to help is to pivot at the hips rather than torque the upper body and shoulders to move with the target.
Pivoting at the hips allows your preferred upper body shooting form to be maintained throughout the swing.






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[Frank Childrey]

I have noticed that pictures of target shooters, or any shooters, in the 1900-1920s period always show the shooter with his left hand extended far down the barrels. Since these men shot for a living, I can only guess that they knew what they were doing. Also, M. V. Highsmith advised me to move my left hand forward to compensate for a stock that felt too short. Finally, on opening day of dove season, before I take to the field, I say to myself, "left hand, Frank."

[Billy Gross]

Craig - I shoot lots of 28 Ga with my K-20, and an occasional 12 Ga with my K-80. It is all about the weight and center of mass of the gun. As Newton's Second Law says: F=MA. The force exerted to track the bird is very different because of the weight and CM of the gun. I don't think O/U or SxS makes that much difference - we are looking at the bird, not the barrels. Skeet and Clays will give you the best feel for the various crossing angles. Shoot in the style that you hunt, don't get wrapped up in technique. Billy

[Rich Anderson]

I shoot a lot of small bore guns as I'm not a 12ga guy but I do have them and enjoy shooting them but not as much as a light 20.

It's hard to go from an 8lb 12 to a 5 1/2 lb 20 or 28 as they handle much differently. When I shoot clays if determine a point where I want to break the target, set my feet towards that point so I have plenty of room to swing and be aggressive. When shooting targets I don't like to go from a 12 to a 20 then back to a 12 and so on. If I'm going to shoot small bores then that's what I shoot that day.

It's just as hard to shoot a 12 when your used to shooting a lighter gun. There is a certain Fox 12 that I'm learning to shoot:whistle:

[Craig Larter]

I did find when shooting yesterday moving my left hand out on the barrels did give me more control. I think shooting lots of skeet will help establish a consistent swing. Thanks for the suggestions. Craig

[William Davis]

If you read the classic English books Percy Stanbury or Robert Churchill they both advocate forward hand positions. Stanbury more than Churchill, but he was tall and thin Churchill short and stocky. Stanbury and Churchill's books are very good and available from Amazon

Any sport I have ever participated in Form is one of the most important things. Good Form and getting your position right gives you a foundation for improvement.

Don't watch Skeet shooters for form though. Memorized break points locked in positions. Shooting Skeet for practice is great but close your ears to 90 % of the advice you will get. Fellow yesterday hit rate way less than mine was telling me to shoot high gun hard cheek on the stock, lock my knees and hips. Not a recipe for success except on the Skeet field. Even skeet crouch and locked hips is not good.

William

[CraigThompson]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;195022]Indeed - To each his own. Your experience has not been my experience - I was merely suggesting to Craig what has worked very well for me.


Same here Dean. Craig L. was asking for suggestions for shooting a smallbore SxS, not an O/U. The two are VASTLY different in handling characteristics. If I tubed my K32 with 20ga. tubes I would certainly shoot a much higher score but it would feel like a club in my hands. That is not why I shoot a smallbore SxS. They are just plain sexy and fun to shoot. As I get older fun trumps score and if I score well with a 20 or 28 all the more fun.

You missed my point entirely !

And no a tubed O/U doesn't feel like a club . Well not once you get used to it atleast .

With a Superposed O/U 410 that weighs about 7 1/2 pounds and an Iver Johnson side by side 410 that weighs less then 6 pounds I shot virtually the same scores . Granted I shot better with a tubed gun but then again that was a few years ago .

[Tom Pellegrini]

I did find when shooting yesterday moving my left hand out on the barrels did give me more control. I think shooting lots of skeet will help establish a consistent swing. Thanks for the suggestions. Craig

Craig, Awhile back John Higgins was at Backwoods for two months offering clay shooting instruction. One thing I heard him say to many students, "shooting skeet is the best practice for sporting clays, especially stations 3,4,&5.
Now for a little laugh. I read in Sporting Clays USA magazine a while back. One of the instructors who writes a regular column, stated " you have to let you sub conscious take control of your conscious mind." I guess that means you should shoot unconscious. LOL

[William Davis]

Tom

He's right because crossers are the targets with lowest hit rate most shooters. Only thing is take 3 4 & 5 low gun and if the club will let you, behind and in front of the shooting box. Same target all the time get good at it then go to longer targets, it's another thing.

William

[Bill Murphy]

I will only give you a tidbit of information because I normally charge $400 an hour for individual instruction and I don't want to overcharge you. OK, here goes. Light gun, heavy gun, put them in your hands in shooting position. Move the gun with your eyes and your body the same way, regardless of the weight of the gun. Overpower or muscle the heavy gun so that that it feels the same as the light one. Use your eyes to approach the target, not your arms. When you start the heavy gun, don't let the weight of the gun slow you down. Don't swing either gun like it is a bat. The gun is attached to your upper body and should move with the target at the same speed, no matter the weight of the gun. Gun too heavy? Remember, you are a man and shouldn't notice. Gun too light? Don't push the gun at the speed you are physically able to push it. That is too fast. Follow the target with your eyes and pretend that the gun is not there. It is hard to overswing on a target that you are actually seeing well. Why in hell should you swing the gun faster than the target is moveing. Use your eyes to determine how fast the target is moving. OK, that's it. No charge.

[Rich Anderson]

I shoot better when I'm aggressive no matter if it's a 12 or a 410.
When I shot registered skeet I used a Beretta 687 EELL with 30 inch barrels and Briley sub gauge tubes. My scores with the 20ga were better and I ended up shooting the 20 in the 12ga event and doubles. Back then we didn't have the lighter 12ga loads we do now.

[Dean Romig]

The .410 SKEETER that I owned a few years back weighed 6 lbs., 12 oz. with either set of barrels. (both were 26") I shot better skeet scores with that gun than any 12, 16, or 20 that I ever used.

I think that tubed gun gave you a few more ounces in the barrels and some folks just do better with a gun that is slightly heavier in the front end to help with a smoother swing for the way they hold the gun.

What point did we miss?






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[Craig Larter]

Thanks everyone excellent input. When I forgot about the gun I shot well when I started thinking about how little and light it is i struggled. If I got aggressive with the target i way over swung. If I slowed down my swing it smoothed out. Practice practice it's fun to work on a skill outside your comfort zone.

[Rich Anderson]

What point did we miss?






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I'm looking for it. If Daisy finds she will hold point until we figure it out:rotf:

[Rich Anderson]

Craig lets shoot a round of 20ga at Hausmanns. Maybe we can help each other, it's been a very long time since I had to swing an 8lb 12 ga:eek:
Some of us will arrive Wed to shoot Rock Mtn on Thursday if you would care to join us. I plan on shooting the upgraded 28 at the Rock.

[Bill Murphy]

OK, another $400 worth. Dean, I doesn't know what "Other folks" as you describe them, do with a heavy gun or a light gun. It is your job to shoot well with all guns. You are not locked into one gun or the other. You must learn how to shoot all guns rather than to have an excuse for the gun you are shooting today. Dr. Truitt doesn't excuse himself when he is shooting a light gun or a short gun. He shoots them all well and makes his corrections over the next few months. OK, this was not a freebie. You owe me $400.

[William Davis]

Think about it golfer can strike the ball well 9 iron through the Driver. Reason is he practices the whole bag of clubs. Set up is different short clubs to long, causes no problems as long as he sets up properly for the shot. Shotgun no different.

William

[Daryl Corona]

Unlike Bill, my advice is worth what you pay for it.

Going back to my original post on this topic the most important thing in shooting any gun, especially older SxS's which vary in their dimensions unlike modern target guns which are fairly standard, it is critical to me to hard focus on the target before I mount my gun. That tends to slow it down in your minds eye. Make your move to the target in one deliberate move and know where you want to break it.

Watch any master class clays shooter and you will see a minimum of barrel movement. Bill is right. Heavy gun or light gun the techniques are the same.

[Dean Romig]

Before I pay you Bill, you first need to convince me that you had a valid reason to single me out.






OK, another $400 worth. Dean, I doesn't know what "Other folks" as you describe them, do with a heavy gun or a light gun. It is your job to shoot well with all guns. You are not locked into one gun or the other. You must learn how to shoot all guns rather than to have an excuse for the gun you are shooting today. Dr. Truitt doesn't excuse himself when he is shooting a light gun or a short gun. He shoots them all well and makes his corrections over the next few months. OK, this was not a freebie. You owe me $400.

[todd allen]

I think that you have to accept the fact that you will shoot targets better with a heavier gun, while a lighter gun will be easier to carry in the field. That's the trade-off.
I don't chase game birds with a 9 pound target gun, and I don't expect to win a sporting clays match with a 6 pound sub-gauge.

[Mills Morrison]

Upland hunting down here means quail hunting and the name of the game is a light gun that you can raise up quickly and aim at going away birds. Completely different from waterfowl hunting on the open marsh.