Case colors for the Trojan

[David Penland]

Who does the best case colors for Trojan guns. I acquired a 20 gauge Trojan and think I want to restore it.

[Jim DiSpagno]

IMHO, Brad Batchelder in Grand Rapids, Michigan and Doug Turnbull, Bill Schwarz in Georgia is guide good also

[Brian Dudley]

Trojan or any other grade... Turnbull. Period.

The accuracy of the work and the level of service are great! I cannot say the same for others.


Lower grades are where truely accurate looking case colors are most important. The less engraving the frame has, the more the colors show.

[Frank Cronin]

I favor Turnbull as well.

http://www.turnbullmfg.com/gun/parker-trojan-16-ga/

[George M. Purtill]

But first...... before you go down a path from which you cannot return,,,, are you sure it needs to be re-cased?
Why not post some pictures? If it is an honest gun with traces of case in the corners so to speak, you will kill the value by re-casing it.
If you are not concerned about value and just want to hunt or shoot some clays, then why do it?
A 20 gauge Trojan is a choice gun and becoming choicer by the day, But that's my crazy opinion.

[allen newell]

Trojan 20 ga. Bachelder colors - they speak for themselves

[Brian Dudley]

But first...... before you go down a path from which you cannot return,,,, are you sure it needs to be re-cased?
Why not post some pictures? If it is an honest gun with traces of case in the corners so to speak, you will kill the value by re-casing it.
If you are not concerned about value and just want to hunt or shoot some clays, then why do it?
A 20 gauge Trojan is a choice gun and becoming choicer by the day, But that's my crazy opinion.



I agree, But Some don't think twice about re-coloring a 75% or better gun. You woild be surprised.

[George M. Purtill]

I agree, But Some don't think twice about re-coloring a 75% or better gun. You woild be surprised.

There is certainly the case for re-casing. I have done it in a reclamation situation. And the fellows mentioned will do well.
But I think of myself as a caretaker of these guns. Hopefully my next generation will do the same and on and on. But if they had to get money out of them for whatever reason, they will get more for an original gun at 25% plus they will get the cash I didn't spend on re-casing. But that's only my analysis.

[Bill Murphy]

Turnbull's shop did my old VH 12 a few years ago and it is outstanding.

[allen newell]

Would you re-case color this frame?

[Dave Suponski]

No way

[allen newell]

If a lady wishes to get a tuck here or there or some other restorative procedure and to feel better about her self and be more attractive to her husband, I say go for it. Value? PRICELESS Not too different between a man and his gun. :rotf::bigbye:

[Marty Kohler]

Better is in the eyes of the beholder.....But most would leave that one alone for sure.............

[Daryl Corona]

Allen;
Ditto on what Dave said. To me and others, that gun is worth more in it's present condition than if you had it "restored". JMHO.

George:
As my legal mouthpiece you have said exactly how I feel.:bowdown:

[Dean Romig]

Re-case-coloring that pretty gun, in my humble opinion, would devalue it significantly.

I wouldn't do it if it were my gun... unfortunately, it isn't.






.

[Brian Dudley]

Allen,
My answer here is still NO.

[edgarspencer]

Would you re-case color this frame?

Absolutely not.

It's important that you give consideration to many other factors, besides the amount of remaining color. In most circumstances, the metal gets some degree of polishing, and this may impact the quality and crispness of the original engraving. A proper reheat treatment (after all, case hardening is a heat treatment)will involve a stress relieve cycle after the quench cycle. This will only marginally soften the case (very shallowest surface) the more highly engraved a gun is, the greater that plays into the treatment(s). Each and every heating and cooling cycle is an opportunity for distortion.

The above is fact ,from which I draw 35 years of experience in metalurgy.
The following is opinion;
Brad Bachelder has shown, in dozens of guns we have seen in Parker Pages, and elsewhere, to have the best heat treatment practice when it comes to reproducing Meriden colors. Turnbull can closely approximate early Winchester colors on forged receivers, and barely comes close to the all time famous Colt SAA receiver colors. He does not, in my mindcome close to Meriden Bone, Leather, Charcoal case hardening colors.
When to do it? It's your gun, you decide. I doubt seriously I would consider doing it to a gun exhibiting 35-40% colors or more.

[allen newell]

Dean and Edgar, I will pm you details on this gun which is currently being restocked to my specs by Brad. Although Lawyer Henry F. Tenney had the original stock cut very short for his wife, and with too much drop for me and no cast and being a Parker that I have no intention of ever selling as it will go to one grandson, the oldest of two, upon my demise. I am keeping the original stock and forend however.

[David Penland]

I really appreciate everyone's opinion! Thank you all. As I have been disassembling the Trojan, I am fascinated and very impressed at the work that was put into this gun. I am confident this gun has never been opened up. So many of the parts are stamped with the serial # and the fit of all the parts is awesome. When I purchased the gun it had been neglected, the barrels on the outside had many rust spots as well as the receiver. I think to begin with I will just clean everything up and shoot the gun to begin with. I will post pictures as I make progress. I am attaching a couple of pics to give an idea of what I am up against.

[David Penland]

Here we go

[Pete Lester]

I think restored guns look better if everything but the frame is redone, patina always looks more righteous than a recase. If the receiver was previously polished then you don't have much choice. Why not redo the whole gun the way you like and see how it looks with the original frame. If you don't like it then do it.

[David Penland]

Shows very little case.

[allen newell]

he barrels need to be touched up as well. A Frontier Pad with some Rem Oil would clean much of those barrels up and give you a better idea of the real finish remaining underneath. You'd be surprised.

[Brian Dudley]

David,
Thank you for posting a picture of the 20g that you posted about. It helps us in accurately commenting on your gun instead of just speculating.

The condition of your gun is what some would call a "rough weather hunter". One you can take out and get good service out of and not worry about getting it messed up.

Case coloring this gun is the LAST concern you should have. Other matters like barrel blue and wood condition always trump frame condition in my book when it comes to what should and shouldnt be restored in a priority list standpoint.

The only way this gun should be considered being re-colored is if a FULL restorstion was being done. And even then, the amount of surface prep to the frame would be great because of the damage already caused by active rust.

Shoot it and enjoy.

[David Penland]

David,
Thank you for posting a picture of the 20g that you posted about. It helps us in accurately commenting on your gun instead of just speculating.

The condition of your gun is what some would call a "rough weather hunter". One you can take out and get good service out of and not worry about getting it messed up.

Case coloring this gun is the LAST concern you should have. Other matters like barrel blue and wood condition always trump frame condition in my book when it comes to what should and shouldnt be restored in a priority list standpoint.

The only way this gun should be considered being re-colored is if a FULL restorstion was being done. And even then, the amount of surface prep to the frame would be great because of the damage already caused by active rust.

Shoot it and enjoy.

Thank you for your assessment Brian. I agree and have already started working on the barrels and the wood. I picked up the gun from a nice lady who said her dad purchased the gun. I plan on posting pictures when I finish. If I were a financially independent fellow I would own many high grade Parkers and Smiths. As is I will continue to search for the diamonds in the rough and enjoy them for what they are, awesome examples of American art and quality craftsmanship.

[Bill Murphy]

In past years, I have "Hunted" such guns as the pictured Trojan back to reasonable condition. At 70 1/2, I am beyond that, but Brian's advice to attack the receiver after everything else is done, is good advice.

[Craig Larter]

I believe Doug Turnbull's colors are the best for a Parker re-color. I have examined all the other current re-color providers and feel Doug is the best and most accurate. I am a little younger than Bill Murphy but I believe his opinions on restorations are spot on for an older guy!

[edgarspencer]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Craig Larter]

I don't consider myself a broken clock just stating the opinion of one man as is Edgar. The best approach is to look at many examples and make up your own mind. You are paying the bill so what makes you happy is the most important factor.

[edgarspencer]

I couldn't agree more, Craig, however, I am not, as you say, stating the opinion of one man, although I have yet to see, out of many examples, a piece of Mr. Turnbull's work that resembles colors reminiscent of Meriden's heat treat practice. As you may have failed to notice, I am only one of Many, who like another well known shop. Some people tout the work of a shop because they have had them do work; others may tout the work of a shop because they don't get along with another shop. My opinion is based upon what I have paid money for, in addition to many guns which I have cased for others.
As I stated before, I think Turnbull has a good idea how to heat treat a Winchester frame, but not so much a Colt frame. I spent over 20 years making Colt's case hardening boxes (yes, they are cast martensitic stainless steel) and did manage to pick up a few bits and bobs of info along the way. I have no doubt when Turnbull gets his packing practice under control, he'll start being consistent. What I mean by the clock thing, is his practice is not consistent.
What many people think of his work, may not, in fact, be his work. Do you know what he farms out? Hmmm......

[Craig Larter]

OK Edgar you win, sorry to state my opinion. I surrender, I have learned my lesson. I am only an unsophisticated apple knocker from upstate NY.

[David Penland]

David,
Thank you for posting a picture of the 20g that you posted about. It helps us in accurately commenting on your gun instead of just speculating.

The condition of your gun is what some would call a "rough weather hunter". One you can take out and get good service out of and not worry about getting it messed up.

Case coloring this gun is the LAST concern you should have. Other matters like barrel blue and wood condition always trump frame condition in my book when it comes to what should and shouldnt be restored in a priority list standpoint.

The only way this gun should be considered being re-colored is if a FULL restorstion was being done. And even then, the amount of surface prep to the frame would be great because of the damage already caused by active rust.

Shoot it and enjoy.
After considering all advice here is a picture of the Trojan cleaned up. I still intend to work on the barrel blue a bit.

[Paul Ehlers]

It looks like it's cleaning up fairly well. I'm pretty much in Brian's camp on this one.

Clean it up the best you can & enjoy it for what it is.

[Bill Murphy]

I have a small covey of guns I have bought over the years, covered in rust, and abused and neglected in other ways. Most are in wonderful condition today and only a couple ever saw the inside of a gunsmith's shop.

[jack lyons]

case coloringAttached are some pics of the case coloring don't by Lyons Gunsmithing, Correct the more engraving exhibits a more subtle appearance than as shown in the Parker Vgrade receiver, this was an old receiver , stripped due to rust , Lyons does Rust bleuing case coloring, nitre blue , hot blueing

[tom leshinsky]

jack the pictures don't come up. we can't see them

[jack lyons]

case coloring can be a very opionitive subject , Seems I cannot get the pic thru email me jlyons1@comcast.net , I will send pics of case coloring we do in our shop, Lyons Gunsmithing, WE SPECIALIZE IN ONE GUN ONLY--YOURS

[Dean Romig]

Jack, do you color case harden all guns the same or do you use different formulas (crucible packings) for the various makes?





.

[jack lyons]

IT ALL DEPENDS, MARLIN, WINCHESTER PARKER, LC SMITH, THEY AII REQUIRE DIFFERRENT MIX THANKS

[Brian Dudley]

case coloring can be a very opionitive subject

Not really. They either look right or they dont.

[Craig Larter]

Most don't in my opinion. I only know of one that has it correct. But what do I know��

[Brad Bachelder]

The process of color case hardening is actually a very simple one. Results can be obtained with equipment available from Brownells. unfortunately many hobbyists have attempted it and compromised good guns. Every manufacturer has certian signature traits in case colors. To duplicate original colors and patterns, requires a tremendous amount of research and a true understanding of the dynamics of the process. This does not happen overnight, it takes years of research and trial and error.
The ability to determine original colors requires an intense study of high condition original guns.

Brad

[Bill Murphy]

Some who attempt to duplicate original case colors on shotguns have never even seen a high condition gun of the brand they are attempting to duplicate. Brian, Doug, Dewey, and Brad are exceptions. They have seen benchmark guns. It is up to you to determine whether they duplicate the original colors correctly.

[Brian Dudley]

Bill, to clarify, I do not offer case coloring.

[allen newell]

Brian, but when one of your customer's wants their gun re-cased colored, you have Turnbull do the coloring. Is that correct?

[Brian Dudley]

Yes...

[Bill Murphy]

Brian, most of my comment was that most gunsmiths have never seen a benchmark Parker. You are one of the chosen few who have actually seen such a gun.:bowdown:

[John Dallas]

A friend of mine and I went out to Brad's several months ago, and took with us my friend's outrageous 10 gauge AH to show Brad. After he admired the gun, he called his worker who specializes in barrel finishing up up front and showed him the gun, saying "Take a look at these barrels - This is the way they came out of the factory". Spreading the knowledge.

Hopefully, this will get you to the discussion of the gun a while back

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6107&highlight=nice

(or search "Nice One")

[Mike Poindexter]

I have had a GHE and an LC Smith Trap Grade completely restored by Turnbull about 15 years ago, including engraving chased/recut. The colors on both were perfect in my opinion. Different of course, but perfect for the marque. I had an Ithaca Crass 2 restored by Pfommer and I'm not sure who he used for case color. Colors there were OK but not as good as DT's. All three guns showed minor warping in the quench, not enough to affect functioning but enough to bother me. The Parker picked up a wobble on the hook that had not been there before, the Smith had one side plate that was a few thousandths proud, and the Ithaca had a wobble in the top lever with a couple of thousandths of visible clearance where there had been none before. I swore off re-caseing after that. The Trojan you've got looks pretty good after your cleanup to me. I'd leave it alone.

[allen newell]

Brad B has done a number of Parkers for me. Re-case coloring, ejector repairs, stock making, Damascus barrel refinishing etc. etc. His prices are reasonable and Brad and staff are an absolute pleasure to do business with. I just can't say enough about how decent these people are and the way they run their business and take care of customers.