What Damasus pattern do you like best?

[Craig Larter]

Damascus patterns are so beautiful and interesting compared to steel barrels. The high grade Parkers were made with DD fine+ Damascus barrels and they are beautiful. But I like the Twist barrels on Parker PH's best. The contrast between the black and white on high condition twist barrels is spectacular. Bernard barrels are a tie for first. What say you?

[David Holes]

Laminated barrels are third place, Bernard 2nd, and parker made laminated first

[scott kittredge]

Mine are twist,Bernard,than gh. after that they get to fine and I can't see much contrast. OK ,With my old eyes:)

[Daniel G Rainey]

DH, GH, They are all nice. I agree that the contrast on the twist barrels on the PH are hard to beat.

[Mills Morrison]

The plain Damascus patterns on GH and DH Parkers are so common that they get overlooked

[Greg Baehman]

Bernard is attractive, but it's the chain damascus I see on Elsies and Lefevers that gets me going.

Photo lifted from one of Mark Ouellette's albumns. Thanks Mark! :bigbye:

[Brian Dudley]

For Parker patterns, Bernard is my personal favorate followed by Laminated.

[Paul Ehlers]

They are all awesome in my book. If I have to rate them I would pick Bernard #1 followed by P-Laminated like this on a Grade-2 lifter below.

[john pulis]

is it Stars and stripes? Etoille? or Amercian bunting on Remington '94s. Chain on Elsies, and what looks like laminated on H and Rs. All are nice and the varying patterns are spectacular.

[Dean Romig]

The hard labor and incredible skill in being able to repeat the uniformity and beauty in each and every tube just blows me away.

Laminated Steel barrels made by Parker Bros. in those three years of barrel production, 1877, 78, and '79 are probably my favorite. I wonder how many were made with those barrels... we'll never know, I'm sure.
Charlie Herzog has a couple of Parkers with the extremely rare American Flag Bunting and if I am not mistaken, the "Terrell" gun as well. Absolutely amazing!!






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[Rich Anderson]

I like the contrast in a set of barrels with two different patterns. A good set of Damascus barrels just make fluid steel look so plain. My favorite Parkers are the Damascus barreled ones.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

I am a fan of all composite barrels, but I like Bernard first, DD Damascus 2nd, and Laminated 3rd, and then twist, and other Dam2 barrels, these are Bernard Barrels on a grade 3 hammer gun, the only grade 3 I have seen with them, Gary

[Rick Losey]

just too many to chose from - and they all look great

i do like the twist

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=635&pictureid=7429

but you also have to be impressed with the barrel maker's ability to keep a tight even pattern in a damascus barrel (one of these days I'll get this one refinished - i think it will pop)

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=588&pictureid=8062

[charlie cleveland]

i would love to see all the differant pattern of these barrels setting together in a rack as they left the factory what a sight that would be..i cannot choose which one i like best.....charlie
..

[Daryl Corona]

I can honestly say that I've never seen a set of damascus that I did'nt like. The minor variations are what make them all beautiful to me. I like them all.

[Bill Murphy]

Charlie hit the nail on the head. Original factory finish in any composite pattern is beautiful and hard to believe as old as they are. A rack full of a dozen high condition original guns would be outstanding. Those who attend double gun shoots see some like racks, but maybe not all very high condition.

[Bruce Day]

Charlie hit the nail on the head. Original factory finish in any composite pattern is beautiful and hard to believe as old as they are. A rack full of a dozen high condition original guns would be outstanding. Those who attend double gun shoots see some like racks, but maybe not all very high condition.

Not a rack, but....

16ga.

[David Holes]

I consider these as a poor mans bernard

[greg conomos]

I find the 'straight' lines of non-Damascus composite barrels to be less interesting and more 'grade school' than the 'swirling' patterns of a Damascus barrel.

Leaving perhaps Bernard Steel out of the discussion, Parker considered Damascus to be superior to Laminated/Twist/Stub etc. You don't see many Twist Steel A grades floating around.

[Dean Romig]

Yup David, Laminated Steel - very nice.


Actually, Laminated Steel is considered one of the strongest composites and this is supported by British burst tests.

Parker Bros. used their own, in-house made Laminated Steel on higher grades, though I have seen them on Grade 2 guns.


Here is a Grade 3 of mine with Parker Bros. Laminated Steel barrels. It is due for a restoration. Quite obvious is the wrong hammer on the right side, but there are worse problems.

Serial no. of this Grade 3 is 14056 and was made in 1879, the last year in which Parker Bros. made their own barrels.


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[Bill Bates]

I really love any Damascus barrel but the pattern on my GH sure holds a special spot in my heart.

http://m1.i.pbase.com/o2/10/209910/1/124852771.3AKu5KC6.GHbarrelmark1.jpg

[Craig Larter]

They are all nice, but here are my to favorite.

[Robin Lewis]

This is the nicest I ever owned, Laminated on a lifter. I know it doesn't look it but all three pictures are of the same gun, better photos would help but ... best I can do.

[Dean Romig]

I know that gun Robin and I believe the barrels are of Parker Bros. manufacture too. Do you recall the serial number? If I recall correctly, the P stamp is absent from the right barrel flat but the year of manufacture is more of a 'dead giveaway'.






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[charlie cleveland]

in the strengh of the barrels excluding fluid steel in the strengh test just a while back wasnt the stub rwist one of the strongest and plain steel was way up there in strengh...all of the guns shown are just the best....charlie

[Robin Lewis]

I think the number is 11413

[Carl Erickson Jr]

I like them all. A suggestion: A display of Damascus, twist and laminated barrels at a shoot. Just put your gun in a rack for for a few hrs at a shoot so everyone everyone to see the beauty of the various barrels ( Parker, Elsie, Fox, Remington, LeFeaver). Mike's shoot in September?

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Not a Parker, but nice chain link pattern on my Ithaca grade 3 Lewis from 1905.

[Dean Romig]

I think the number is 11413

Yes, I think you're right Robin. An L4 and in the right serial range too.





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[Dave Noreen]

I'm with Wild Skies!! I have "Chain J" on an 1895 vintage BE-Grade Remington Hammerless Double that is my favorite.

[Carl Baird]

I'm weighing in. I like twist the best with it's dark and light contrasts, but I like stub twist better.
The whole process in making the barrels was pure magic. What skill and hard work to make them. They are so under appreciated and misunderstood. I recently had hold of a Hollenbeck Three Barrel drilling...16 x 16 x 25-25. It's not a Parker, but that gun was spectacular. The damascus was breathtaking.

[Dean Romig]

Here's a nice example of dark and light contrast. Bernard barrels refinished by Dale Edmonds.

The Stub Twist barrels I've shown before. They are on a 20 gauge lifter.



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[Bill Jolliff]

Wish I had better pictures . . .

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i117/jollybill2006/Parker%20AAHE%2016/Parker%20AAHE16%20112920-2_zpsh6a69vhj.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i117/jollybill2006/Parker%20AAHE%2016/Parker%20AAHE16%20112920-4_zpsitknrzaj.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i117/jollybill2006/Parker%20AAHE%2016/Parker%20AAHE16%20112920-4-1_zpsn4qdknbr.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Bill, what name is that in the Damascus?

Oh, I see it now - it's the Terrell gun. Is it yours?




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[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Nice gun Dean! gary

[Bill Jolliff]

Bill, what name is that in the Damascus?

Oh, I see it now - it's the Terrell gun. Is it yours?.

It used to be Dean, many years ago. Yep, it's the Terrell gun. Traded it for some dandy Fox's. I owned the gun from June of 1981 to August of 1987.

And wish I had taken better pictures of the gun. Digital photography wasn't around then and I struggled with standard film to get what I got (?)

[Dean Romig]

I'm sure the new owner will give you excellent pictures if you ask him.





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[Bill Jolliff]

I'm sure the new owner will give you excellent pictures if you ask him.

Pictures were requested as part of the deal but I didn't get any pictures. Probably too late now to make a request thru the ownership chain.

I'm hoping I/we might see the gun in print someday.

[Larry Frey]

I like them all. A suggestion: A display of Damascus, twist and laminated barrels at a shoot. Just put your gun in a rack for for a few hrs at a shoot so everyone everyone to see the beauty of the various barrels ( Parker, Elsie, Fox, Remington, LeFeaver). Mike's shoot in September?

I like that idea Carl and will bring a couple of mine to the Rock. If we can get a few of our members to do the same we could have a really nice display.

[Rich Anderson]

This thread has thrown me into a quandary. I have several Damascus barreled guns and they are truly wonderful works of art. I have a CHE Damascus 20 that is still all original save for the replacement of the aged Silvers pad which was literally crumbling before my eyes. This is one of only 8 CHE 20's with 26 inch Damascus barrels but the barrels have taken on a lackluster silver finish as the pattern has all but faded away. I think they would really pop if refinished but she's only original once as they say. So what's the consensus refinish them and enjoy the beauty or leave them as is?

[Dean Romig]

Refinish barrels only.

The gun should be appreciated in all its glory. Even some original owners were known to send guns back to Meriden to "rebrown barrels."






.

[Carl Baird]

I'd like to hear from members on refinishing or not too? I think in terms of bringing guns back to keep them alive. Case in point, a VH in very poor condition but with all the parts. Is is original when the project is done, nope...but it's beautiful again and will live on!
The other side of the coin is a gun that's nice but showing it's age gracefully. I think leaving it alone is more appropriate. Thoughts?

[Dean Romig]

I think it is a personal choice and should certainly depend on the condition of the individual gun.






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[todd allen]

I had a conversation with Brad Bachelder a while back about refinishing a P grade hammer gun, that I had posted about. An otherwise very clean little 16 gauge, with zero finish on the bbls, and just a trace of color on the receiver. The conclusion was that a proper refinish of the bbls would enhance the value of the gun. As is, the twist pattern is virtually invisible.
I have to agree with Brad. I'll take the color, over the silver. Just waiting for the money to come around.

[Carl Baird]

True, there are a lot of VH guns out there, so that has to enter into the equation. Let me qualify it a bit, a few years ago I came across a Parker 12 ga. hammer gun that was very nice but very used. Had a maple stock and walnut forend and 32" barrels. The gun was sound and with the exception of the stock, all there. Should I replace the stock? What about the receiver and barrels? Well, I ended up replacing the stock and cleaning up the bores. Not a complete restoration, but it looks like a factory gun, but it's not original.

[Carl Baird]

I wish you luck on your P grade Todd. My hammer gun has a ton of color on the barrels, it was the tiger maple stock that drove me crazy. With my plain jane replacement walnut stock,(appropriate for the grade) the gun is just the way I want it. What size is your receiver on your 16 ga.?

[todd allen]

This is the 16. I don't want to mess with the rest of it, but I would like to restore the color to the bbls.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11695

[Mark Landskov]

My 1907 GH has barrels marked 'D3'. In my limited experience, I noted that the number next to the 'D' was the same as the number grade of the gun, thus, my GH should have had 'D2' barrels. Is that how the system worked, or am I reading too far into it?

:cheers:

[Craig Larter]

I am a Parker collector in training but I believe most G, D and C grade hammerless guns were marked D. DD is normally found on BH and AH grades.

[Dean Romig]

D and 3 together, normally the numeral is above the letter, indicates 3-blade Damascus. Grade 2 flats were not marked with the grade number. That started with Grade 3.






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[Mark Landskov]

On the left action flat of my GH, the number '2' is stamped right above the serial number. Below the serial number is 'G'. On the barrels, the number '3' is right above the 'D'.

[Jim DiSpagno]

As Dean stated, D with a number close to it is the number of crolles used in making it. I had a grade 1 hammergun with D2 bbls. I've had grade 2 guns both hammer and hammerless with D3, D4 and just D. The grade of gun stamped on the barrel flat started with Grade3 guns as Dean previously posted and is stamped closer to the breech end of the barrels on the right flat.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Very interesting and educational thread. Thanks all for the pictures. My GH 16 ser#77340 is marked with just a D, but there is an asterisk above it,

[Bill Holcombe]

There are lots of nice patterns of damascus on parkers, even between same grade and same time period.

My two 3 dog DHs were made within 10 years of each other, one in 1892 and the other in 1899. Among the variations in them is a distinctly different style of damascus patterns. I am fond of both, though the 1899 one seems to have higher contrast to the pattern.

[Patrick Butler]

Thank you to all who posted and especially to those who posted pictures on this thread. I never tire of looking at Damascus, especially Parkers.

I wish that I had joined this association earlier, bought the basic books such as the Parker Story 17 years ago and followed the information on this web site that has opened my eyes to collecting these beautiful shotguns-that took such craftsmanship that Parker Bros., no slouch in iron and steel, bought them from Europeans. Yeah, "Would have, should have, could have..."

I also, as a novice, have concluded that older Damascus barrels are a good argument, in this age of most always leaving it original, for sending a gun in to one of our members who are master's at the art of bringing these patterns out. I feel that this art should be visible, unless you have some historic piece.

I keep waiting for that nice grade 16 or 20 to pop up on the market with a low "do not shoot this ready to explode weapon" price, but I fear that that train has left the station a few years back.

Oh well, at least I woke up in time to snag a few nice examples.

Best regards,

Patrick Butler

[Dean Romig]

They're still out there Patrick - certainly not in the numbers of a couple of decades ago, but they pop up every so often.





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[Drew Hause]

Gentlemen: we again have some confusion about barrels marked "Laminated Steel" which are most certainly not. Please see
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5520

Laminated Steel sourced in Belgium

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/405985032.jpg

NOT Laminated Steel, and one of my favorite patterns called "Toncin"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/405985031.jpg


The bottom barrels Bro. Dean showed in post #32 ARE Laminated Steel, and likely were produced by Parker Bros. by John Blaze
Please see
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12y9006Ur7mMCqdeeye89c7L4DQrc2iXR8p4S6OIN1bA/edit

[Jeremy Pinsly]

My 1902 16 ga. GH with dual Damascus patterns

[Drew Hause]

Thank you for posting that image Jeremy. Both tubes ARE Parker D4.
I added the pic here, with some other mismatched Parker D3 barrels and barrel segments, with an attribution
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18015717

[Paul Ehlers]

Here's a one off grade 2 hammerless gun which was discussed here a few months ago. This one is wearing a unique pattern for a GR-2 let alone other grades as well.

Drew could you help identify this pattern. The gun is marked on the barrel flat with a D. The top rib is marked Damascus steel as most GH guns are. The oddity is the pattern doesn't match typical Gr-2 guns and one tube has a Birmingham provisional proof mark stamped in the underside of the tube ahead of the barrel flat.

Help with identification would be appreciated !

[Todd Kaltenbach]

This one has different patterns as well.

[Dean Romig]

Paul, Those barrels are Laminated Steel sourced in Belgium.
There are only a couple of other Parkers made with these barrels which would have normally, according to the grade, had Twist Steel or Damascus Steel, or Vulcan Steel. There is scant documented reason for the barrel steel switch.







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[Drew Hause]

Dean is on the wrong side of the channel but close :)
They are "Fine (3 Iron) Laminated Steel" sourced in Birmingham.

The Parker "Fine Laminated" offered on Quality I and H hammer guns in the 1890s catalogs is a grade below the "Fine Damascus" used on Quality G, and referred to as Lam1 in the Parker stock books. The 1888 Colt Patent Firearms catalog also has a quality gradation from Twist to "Laminated" to Damascus, and Hunter Arms used "Laminated Steel" on Quality No. 1 L.C. Smith guns 1892-1898, and some tubes also have Birmingham proofmarks.

This is Belgian "Pointille" Laminated Steel; 1890 12g Grade 1 courtesy of Milt Fitterman

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/299792520.jpg

Dean posted this some time ago. 1899 PH Laminated Steel barrels, rib marked 'Damascus Steel', and 'T' stamp on flats. Can't tell if it's the same stuff

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/409873437.jpg

I added a couple of the images here, with an attribution Paul
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17227428

[Drew Hause]

Todd: your barrels are Parker D3 3 Iron "Oxford" and the pattern is fairly symmetric. The problem appears to be in the 'take' of the coloring.

[Rich Anderson]

Damascus barrels remind me of finger prints, no two are exactly alike.

[Mills Morrison]

Damascus barrels remind me of finger prints, no two are exactly alike.

Very true and a good analogy. I never get tired of looking at them

[Drew Hause]

One can only speculate as to how Parker Bros., Colt, and Hunter Arms got a bunch of Birmingham Laminated Steel tubes around 1890. It should be noted that this product is different than the "English machine-forged 3 rod Laminated steel" that was the big winner of the 1st Phase of the Birmingham Proof House Trial of 1888-1890
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit?pref=2&pli=1

By 1890 Siemens and other fluid steels were being increasingly used on good (but not "Best") guns and Laminated Steel was going out of fashion, so the U.S. makers "got a deal".

[Paul Ehlers]

Drew,

Thank you for the information. I suspected they were laminated but a question arose about the pattern when Brad Bachelder had them in his shop to raise a small dent in one of the tubes.

Brad suggested I contacted you to get your opinion on them. I take it from your post you think they are Birmingham Laminated hand forged rather than the machine forged laminated?

[Drew Hause]

Paul: Laminated Steel production methodology and the pattern produced went through an evolution over time. There is more information here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1__gn3XKjLX_4V0LguzoVGBwJRFS6SxsWGzUwHq93neo/edit?pref=2&pli=1

The Birmingham Proof House Trial Report of 1891 included barrels described as:
1. Belgian and English Laminated Damascus
2. Machine-forged English Best Laminated Steel, 3-Rod and 2-Rod
3. English hand-forged 3-Rod Best Laminated Steel (the winner of the 1st Phase test)

Your barrel is 3 Rod, and by the pattern is not "English hand-forged 3-Rod Best Laminated Steel" which had a much finer pattern

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18063717/317645331.jpg

[Paul Ehlers]

Thank you Drew ! You are the man !!!

I can't start to tell you how much I've enjoyed reading the various research pieces you've posted on pattern welded barrels. You are one of the main reasons most of the SxS's in my gatherings are wearing these beautiful hand crafted barrels. :bowdown:

[todd allen]

Todd: your barrels are Parker D3 3 Iron "Oxford" and the pattern is fairly symmetric. The problem appears to be in the 'take' of the coloring.

Drew, I just got it out and checked. The rib marking says "PARKER BROS MAKERS, MERIDEN CONN. TWIST "
Could it be mis-marked?

[Drew Hause]

You are most welcome Paul. It's been great fun, and we all stand on the shoulders of Dr. Gaddy and others who brought a renewed appreciation of the incredible artistry of Damascus barrels.

Todd: do the barrel flats have a 'T' or a 'D'?

[todd allen]

Drew, it has a "T". Let me know if you need any additional pictures. I appreciate your expertise.

[Drew Hause]

Todd Allen: if you are asking about the barrels in this thread
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11695
the pattern is indistinct but appears to be Laminated Steel

This is a late 1870s 16g Lifter labeled 'Twist' but is clearly laminated steel courtesy of Albert Zinn.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/268584504.jpg

[Dean Romig]

I wonder if there is a good photo of the barrel flat stamps on the barrels shown just above?

Late 1870's ('77, '78, '79, to be exact) could be Parker Bros. own produced Laminated Steel barrels.





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[Will Gurton]

Sorry to stray from the fold, but it's one of the nicest patterns I've encountered.

[Dean Romig]

Will, that pattern is amazing!

Toward the breech end the pattern looks similar to Bernard but forward of that it looks like it graduates to more of a Laminated pattern.





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[Drew Hause]

Steve Culver would like images of the Terrell gun, or permission to use Bill's images
785-230-2505
www.culverart.com

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/268570025.jpg

Thanks.

[Mike Poindexter]

D and 3 together, normally the numeral is above the letter, indicates 3-blade Damascus. Grade 2 flats were not marked with the grade number. That started with Grade 3.






.

That's what I've always heard, too. Here are two G grades, one with D4 and one with D3. The "c" stamp I've always heard meant "crolle" but I certainly have no evidence to back that up. There isn't a lot of difference to my eye between the D3 and D4 patterns, except maybe the size of the swirls. I have seen some really large swirls on other makes that I do not particularly care for. D2's possibly?

[Dean Romig]

The difference between the crolle number is the number of "swirls between the band welds. If you count 3 swirls plus a half swirl on each side between the welds it is 4-iron





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[Brett Hoop]

4
D just because that's all I have all three G grade.

[Bill Jolliff]

Steve Culver would like images of the Terrell gun, or permission to use Bill's images
785-230-2505
www.culverart.com

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/268570025.jpg

Thanks.

Fine with me.

I only wish I had taken some good pictures of the gun during the several years that I owned it.

Bill

[Drew Hause]

Thank you Bill. Would it be possible to contact the current owner to obtain better images?

[wayne goerres]

Looks to me like a gun with character not problems.

[charlie cleveland]

i have thought about which barrel still i liked and i think it would be wire twist....charlie

[charlie cleveland]

did not noticed that it was asking for damascus pattern so i will change my selection to d-4.....charlie

[wayne goerres]

I have Damascus in every pattern except chain. I like them all.

[Bill Jolliff]

Thank you Bill. Would it be possible to contact the current owner to obtain better images?

Drew,

I traded that gun (AAHE 16 gauge SN 112920) about 30 years ago for 3 fantastic Fox's. I would have no idea of where it is now or who owns it.

And I traded it thru a third party so I don't know who the new owner was.

Has anyone here know of its whereabouts or heard of it lately? I haven't.