LOW PRESSURE LOADS

[Pat Dugan]

Time and time again everyone advises to check your barrels for soundness and shoot low pressure loads in the old Parkers without modern steel barrels. Sherman Bell has convinced me that the old Damascus and Twist barrels that are in good shape are as strong as the newer ones made by Parker. What PSI shells do most of you shooters of the old Parkers feel most comfortable with? The ones I have been shooting in 12 GA are by the reloading chart 6400 to 6500 PSI with 1 1/8 shot .


PDD

[Dave Suponski]

Pat,I stay right around 6000 in my composite barreled guns but I throw an ounce of shot

[Jim Williams]

If the barrels are in good shape and have good wall thickness, I'm comfortable with anything up to about 7000. This seems to be an oft-repeated figure among many shooters. I believe this is about what a standard vintage black powder load would generate.

All of my target loads actually are significantly lower than 7K, but some of my field loads are pretty close, or right there at it (turkey loads).

One day I was shooting Sporting Clays with my 2-frame DH damascus gun. I was shooting with a friend and we were using his golf cart. I didn't realize it, but he was shooting factory loads in an identical box and using the same hull as my low pressure target reloads. Somehow we got switched and I had shot nearly a full box of his factory loads (Federal promo 1-1/8 oz.) before I realized the mistake. The old DH didn't care one bit. Since promo loads are designed to work well in autoloaders, I'm sure they are over 8k at least. The friend whose shells I accidently pilfered was shooting them through a fairly light Francotte damascus gun, and has done so without a second thought for years. My gasp at realizing my mistake was a non-issue to him.

On another occasion, I had welded a pinhole in a 2-frame damascus GH barrel, about 7 inches from the breech. It appeared to be a factory defect as there was no corrosion anywhere near it. It was between the ribs and never would have showed up if I hadn't refinished the damascus pattern (found it by the leak into the bore). We stripped the ribs, welded the hole and re-laid the ribs (and refinished the barrels...again). I proof tested that gun with a few factory loads that Kent listed at 8100 psi. No problems, so I stuck a Winchester Super-X 3-3/4 dram, 1-1/4 oz. load in it and pulled the string on the trigger (gun tied to a tire and me behind a steel drum). Again, no problem. A bore mic showed no changes at all anywhere in the barrel. I don't know what the Super-X pressure was, but judging from the roar and recoil, I'd guess it had to be pretty high (although that's not proof that it is).

Jim

[Harry Collins]

Most of my reloads are in the 5000 psi range. I have shot a round of sporting clays with factory Winchester AA XtraLite 1 oz loads @ about 8400 psi through an 1881 lifter Parker with Twist barrels. I am low on on IMR 7625 powder and have been loading AA hulls with WST and 1 oz of shot @ 7400 psi through my Twist and Damascus Parkers. After Sherman Bell blew up my VH, I felt much as you do about these guns being able to handle anything. However, out of deference to the old wood, steel and me, I try to keep the pressures and recoil to a minimum.

Harry

[calvin humburg]

I got a suprise ordered 4 boxes of rst tens when the box showed up on my porch I thought they forgot 2 boxes opened it OH little boxes:-). Very good shells the ol 10 talked again. I agree, theres something about a 10.

ch

[Bruce Day]

Time and time again everyone advises to check your barrels for soundness and shoot low pressure loads in the old Parkers without modern steel barrels.


Response: I think "everyone" urges shooters to check for barrel soundness and wall thickness. However, not everyone, Parker for example, differentiated between damascus and modern fluid steel. Parker published tables based upon gun ga and wt, regardless of barrel composition and those tables are readily available.


Sherman Bell has convinced me that the old Damascus and Twist barrels that are in good shape are as strong as the newer ones made by Parker.


Response: Me too.


What PSI shells do most of you shooters of the old Parkers feel most comfortable with? The ones I have been shooting in 12 GA are by the reloading chart 6400 to 6500 PSI with 1 1/8 shot .


PDD

Response: I load for ga and wt/powder, per Parker tables. I don't like to shoot high recoil shells, since I often shoot 100 to 150 shells in a session. For 12ga,I like 1 oz loads at 2 3/4dre or 1200fps. I load for recoil rather than pressure per se, however, most of what I shoot ends up in the 7000 to 8500 psi range, even new out of the box shells. The Parker load tables for 12ga gave 1 1/8oz, 3 dre for the light 12's and 1 1/4oz, 3 1/2dre for the heavier ones, again without barrel composition differentiation. Most powder today develops more pressure and velocity than the bulk smokeless Parker used to develop their loads, so I tend to load down. I believe a Parker gun today is capable of heavy loads and I have shoot up to 1 1/4oz and 3 1/4dre at waterfowl through a heavy 12, but for clays, I like to load down so I don't develop a flinch, flinch, flinch.

[Jim Williams]

Most of my reloads are in the 5000 psi range.

After Sherman Bell blew up my VH, I felt much as you do about these guns being able to handle anything. However, out of deference to the old wood, steel and me, I try to keep the pressures and recoil to a minimum.

Harry

Me, too Harry. My target load is Sherman's "pet" load. It is a 7/8 oz. load around 5400 psi. It uses Clays powder (in very small amounts - 18gr.) and Claybuster replacement wads for the Fed 12SO. It uses the Fed. promo hull with the fiber base wad. These can be obtained in mass quantities at the range for free. All in all, this is about the cheapest load to shoot I can think of, and it is very easy on old guns. I don't think I notice much difference in score between 7/8 vs. 1 oz. of shot.

Jim

[Bill Murphy]

Jim, I hit the "thanks" button because you not only gave us the anecdote about welding the pinhole in a barrel, but you introduced our readers to the Federal SO wad and the knockoff of that wad. They are wonderful wads, much more resistent to tipping in the loader than are the Winchester wads made for the same light loads. Tipping is a big problem for consistent loads and should be eliminated as much as possible. Just one look at the Federal SO wad or its knockoffs will show you that it is much stronger and resistent to tipping than is the Winchester wad. I have been using the SO for 7/8 ounce loads for many years and continue to use it today.

[Chuck Bishop]

I've been using the components Jim talks about for years but within the last 2 years I've switched from Clays to Clay Dot due to it being a little cheaper.

If you look at the Alliant web site for a 1oz load, you'll notice that load using Clay Dot, produces 5,850psi. Checking the Hodgdon's web site, the same load produces 7.700psi. A difference of almost 1,000psi. This data is for the Gold Medal Plastic hull but I would think substituting a Top Gun or Estate hull would be similar.

Since Alliant says Clay Dot is similar to Clay's, I e-mailed Alliant to make sure their data was correct per the psi. According to their reply, the data is correct.

I usually stay at 17.5 grains of Clay Dot in the Estate hull whether or not I use 1oz or 7/8oz of shot however in the winter I stay with 1oz due to incomplete burning and some off sounding loads when using 7/8 oz in real cold weather

[Pat Dugan]

I mostly shoot trap with 1 1/8 oz of 7 1/2's in the low pressure loads. Most of you seem to shoot mostly 1 oz. An I wasting the 1/8 oz extra in shot?
I shoot an 1879 Twist underlifter with 28 in uncut barrels with IM in both barrels.

thanks in advance for the information

PDD

[John Mazza]

Pat:

I shoot RST 12 gauge Falcon Ultra-Lites, which are only 3/4 of an ounce (#8 shot), and my trap scores have never been better ! These shells are fantastic ! Outside of the good feeling one gets from "rolling his own" - the only reason (for me) NOT to shoot this shell is one of cost. (But I guess I don't shoot enough for the cost to be too painful for me...yet !)

[Harry Collins]

Pat,

I shoot 1 oz at clays and feather from a 12 gauge, 7/8 oz from 16 & 20 gauge, 3/4 oz from the 28 and 1/2 from the .410 and all at about 1150 fps. These loads kill very well with 7 1/2 shot and they don't beat me up. I will step up in weight of load if the game dictates, but I keep the velocity at 1150 even for waterfoul.
Harry

[John Mazza]

Harry:

Does 7 1/2 shot work well for you on pheasants, squirrels & rabbits ? (A lot of people swear by # 6 shot, but I was wondering what your experiences have been...)

Thanks !

[Richard Flanders]

I shoot a 24gram shot PB load in my light damascus guns that is but 4200psi. Not a good winter load but great for summer preserve birds and grouse in hvy cover. My 1883 twist bbled hammer 12ga has v stout bbls and wood and has digested quite a lot of old 3-3/4 dram 1-1/4oz loads with no issues and I suspect could handle them for quite some time to come. Generally I stick to 1oz loads using 7625 at 6000-7000 psi.

[Harry Collins]

John,

I step up in shot size as the birds get bigger, however I have shot preserve pheasant with 7 1/2 shot.

Harry

[John Mazza]

Thanks Harry.

All I ever hunt (pheasant-wise) are preserve birds. I usually use # 6, but most of the shots are close anyway, so # 7 1/2 should still work. (I plan on hunting this fall with that 16 ga. drilling I've mentioned previously. It is a very light gun, so I don't want to shoot heavy loads out of it. I've "proofed" it with RST 7/8 ounce PaperLites @ approx. 5800 - 6000 psi, but plan to only shoot it with their 3/4 ounce load @ 5300 psi. It's a great load, but 7 1/2 is the largest shot. So far, this load with # 8 shot works great at trap, as long as I keep that cheek firmly planted on the stock !)

[Harry Collins]

John,

What caliber is the rifle barrel on your drilling?

Harry

[John Mazza]

9.3 x 72 R.

It's definitely a "handloading only" proposition, as standard dimensions for this caliber (and probably others in Germany in the early days of the 1900's) didn't exist. (Standards were established later, but definitely not in 1904, when mine was made) As a result, an old RWS round will drop right into the chamber, but the rim is too thick to close the gun. Some shells (empty cases, that is...) came with the gun & they were formed/fabricated from Norma 9.3 x 74 R (oddly enough). The must have had the rims thinned, because they chamber perfectly. I've loaded these cases (filled to the top with 3F black powder) & hammered in a .358 pistol bullet. They shot well (ie: bullet stabilized & did not keyhole in the target), but accurace was not good. My bore slugs at 0.359, so that bullet was too small & too soft.

Some day I'll reload it right (with smokeless powder).

[Harry Collins]

What a great caliber. Ross Seifried reloaded the old black powder cartridges with 4198 and at about 40% or 60%, I can not remember, of the original charge. Do not hold me to this as it has been a long time since I was reloading black powder cartridges with smokeless. You might recut the rim on your rifle to accept the new cartridges.

Harry

[John Mazza]

That sounds like a good idea ! (Sure sounds like a pain in the *** to somehow trim the rims on the cases from the "top" side, since you can't just remove brass from the "bottom." - As that may leave the primers "proud.")

I never even thougth of that...


I won't do anything until I get the proper dies & bullets and try out some o fteh smokeless recipes that I did get fromn guys who shoot this caliber. If the gun/loads are accurate and IF it shoots to point of aim (not a lot of ajusstment to the sights !), then I can make my life easier & get the rim recess trimmed up.

It would be fantastic to take a deer with this gun !

[Tom Carter]

John Mazza, Please check your PM. Tom

[Bill Murphy]

John, have you tried the new S&B 9.3X72 ammunition? It's a little pricey, but the brass may be perfect for your gun.

[John Mazza]

Bill:

I haven't tried their ammo because I was told that it may be too hot for my gun (due to dimensional differences like my slightly smaller bore) & the lack of nitro proofs on the rifle barrel. Just like there are different "power levels" of commercial 45-70 ammo, there are difference power levels (in term of reloading data, that is...) for this old caliber.

In fact, some of these old guns bear rifling that was intended specifically for lead bullets vs. jacketed ones.

S&B brass may work for me - I'd have to see how thick the rims are, as that's my problem with that one old RWS round.

[Harry Collins]

John,

That is still one hell of a cartridge! I sure hope you get the bottom barrel hot without as much trouble as you have had.

Harry

[John Mazza]

Thanks Harry.

Bottom line - I just need to get of my *** and set up my old loading press, get some dies, try some bullets & experiment with some of the smokeless loads that a trusted source has given me. I used to reload several rifle calibers in addition to 12 and 20 gauge shotshells - but that was years ago... I will do it one of these days, and I'll let you all know how she shoots. I love the 38-55 cartridge, and if this 9.3 is anywhere near as fun as that round, I'm in for a great time !

[Bill Murphy]

The 9.3X72 is very similar to the 38-55. I don't thing the S&B ammo is loaded so that it would blow up a gun with a plastic barrel, much less your gun. It would certainly be worth a try.