The Guns of J.P. Sousa

[Alfred Houde]

I had the honor of preparing for re-display the two L.C. Smith shotguns owned and used by John Philip Sousa that are held in the collection of the National Museum of the Marine Corps. Both were donated by his grandson. One is a special ordered 12 gauge, A2 grade with 32" barrels which according to his grandson was used for duck hunting. The second is a Field grade, FW 20 gauge with 26" barrels which Sousa purchased late in life after being seriously injured in a riding accident. Both are fitted with the Miller Single Trigger.

According to the artifact record file, Sousa's grandson noted that Sousa owned many shotguns to include Parkers and at least one Purdey, ordered in 1911. He also noted that they "had all been sold off years ago."

Does anyone know the whereabouts of these? I know that the Trapshooting Hall of Fame holds an Ithaca Trap Gun owned by Sousa. Thanks in advance if anyone has some information.

[Bill Murphy]

Al, there is a Double Gun Journal article showing the Lindner Daly that Sousa gave up to shoot the Ithaca. Another article, this one in the Remington Society of America Journal, shows Sousa's F Grade (Premier Grade) Model 10 Remington two barrel set. Both guns remained in the family of Sousa's friend and shooting partner, Walter W. Posey, of Lancaster, PA, until recent years. Both articles were authored by Bill Murphy and his neighbor, Tom Breeden. By the way, my little Wirehair, Eva, is well at ten years old, and says "Hi!"

[Bob Brown]

xxx

[Dave Noreen]

His Parker Bros. AAH-grade passed through Amoskeag Auctions some years ago.

[Bill Murphy]

I assume that was after it passed through Alderfer's. Can you give us some information on the Amoskeag sale?

[Dave Noreen]

Seen one auction house beginning with A you've seen them all.

[Bill Murphy]

Are you saying that Amoskeag is not the house you were referring to?

[Randy Davis]

Here are a couple photo/articles from my collection. Sousa shooting in 1913 Harrisburg PA. tournament. May be his A2 SxS...

Randy Davis

[Kevin McCormack]

I assume that was after it passed through Alderfer's. Can you give us some information on the Amoskeag sale?

Bill, to my knowledge the Sousa AAH Pigeon Gun never went through Amoskeag. According to my records, it came right out of a trunk in the attic of a female descendant (a grand niece?) and was consigned directly to Alderfer's.

[Bill Murphy]

Kevin, you might remember that I was second high bidder on the Sousa gun at the Alderfer auction. Mr. Noreen suggested that the gun went to another auction later, but he isn't replying to confirm or unconfirm that.

[Kevin McCormack]

Kevin, you might remember that I was second high bidder on the Sousa gun at the Alderfer auction. Mr. Noreen suggested that the gun went to another auction later, but he isn't replying to confirm or unconfirm that.

'Et tu', Researcher??

[Bill Murphy]

I guess Al got the information he needed, at least on two of the "missing" Sousa guns. They are both wonderful guns, great shooters, and will not likely leave my possession any time soon. There is another gun out there that seems to have Sousa connections, but no hard provenance.

[Dave Noreen]

I miss remembered. It was an auction house that began with A.

[Bill Murphy]

Al, I have another gun with "Sousa Lite" provenance that you may be interested in. Maybe we should talk.

[Alfred Houde]

Always interested in any of Sousa's guns. I'm especially curious as to where the Purdey ended up. I am going over to the U.K. in August with the wife to visit her folks. We plan on spending a day or two in London. I'm hoping to visit Purdey and perhaps see the Long Room. If the visit goes well, I may ask to see the ledger with the order information. I know that he ordered it in 1911. London will be quick, as we are actually headed up to Durham County. Other than Purdey, Holland & Holland and the Tower of London, which are planned, any other must see gun rooms?

[Bill Murphy]

Al, you can find the information on the Purdey with an email, just like you found the information on the Lindner Daly and the Remington, from me. I am getting close to the Sousa provenance on the Lindner Daly double gun as we speak. I have done it all from my desk. Sorry you aren't interested in the guns I have already provenanced. Have a nice time in London.

[Alfred Houde]

Bill:

I sent you a P.M.

[Drew Hause]

Late to the party.

This might refer to the A2

Sporting Life June 19, 1909
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1909/VOL_53_NO_15/SL5315026.pdf
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1909/VOL_53_NO_15/SL5315027.pdf
Syracuse, N. Y., June 11. The fifty-first annual shoot of the New York State Sports Men’s Association was held on June 7, 8, 9 and 10, under the auspices of the Onondago County Gun Club. In the long history of these events no tournament was ever so successful. The entry list was extremely heavy and the competition, on a high plane.
The Niagara-on-the-Lake grounds adjoined the beautiful Syracuse Yacht Club and stretched up from the lake, toward a fine background, though the lay of the field may have fooled some of the contestants at the beginning.
Many notable shooters were present including a large field of professionals. J. Phillip Sousa was one of the most conspicuous of the notabilities and his witty sayings and ready answers were much enjoyed by all, and shoots the finest grade the Hunter people make in the L. C. Smith.

Daly Diamond Grade SBT
Glass photo from the National Photo Company Collection, Library of Congress.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/408407777.jpg

Parker AAHE
Bain Collection, Library of Congress. Glass image c.1910-1915.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/408407776.jpg

Sporting Life Feb. 20, 1915

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/412301238.jpg

Details of the riding accident 9-6-1921
https://books.google.com/books?id=J2gdCa_4d2gC&pg=PA33&lpg

[Bill Murphy]

The gun in the first picture is in my gun safe. The Parker is not.

[Alfred Houde]

It would be interesting to learn how many he actually had. Sounds like a good book project.

[Bill Murphy]

I think the ones we have discussed were the ones he shot on a regular basis. Like for the rest of us, those were the few and the important. My neighbor and co-author was on the track of another one that we haven't located. JPS Jr. had a baggo guns, but that is a different situation altogether.

[Alfred Houde]

Bill, did you receive the PM I sent you? I'm really interested in learning more about the Purdey.

[Bill Murphy]

Al, didn't get your message, or I can't locate it. I don't know anything about the Purdey, unfortunately.

[Drew Hause]

Ran into another image which unfortunately is undated. His appearance is similar to the 1914 pic Randy posted on the previous page.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/412661895.jpg

No way to ID the double from that angle :(
Loblolly Pine in the background? Pinehurst?

[Alfred Houde]

Hard to say with 100% certainty. It looks like it may be the 20 gauge Field Grade FW held in the collection. His left hand appears to be wrapped around a splinter type forend. Also, the barrels look like they are a shorter length. The 20 gauge in the collection has 26" barrels.

Great picture. Never seen this one before, thanks.

[Drew Hause]

Found another, and definitely a boxlock double

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/412688066.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

Drew, I have another gun that is probably a Sousa gun. It is a boxlock Prussian Daly Diamond Grade with a white frame like the one in the picture, made about 1897 according to a fellow Daly collector. Obviously, the one in the picture does not have an exposed hinge pin. I'm always looking for more pictures. Sousa, like Annie Oakley, posed for a very limited number of shotgun pictures.

[Dean Romig]

Found another, and definitely a boxlock double

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/412688066.jpg


Hey, 'wood to wood' Johnny Boy!





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[Bill Murphy]

Dean, JPS was not a high average shooter, but he did have his good days. Sort of like us. He also had some nice guns, sort of like us. In my next article on Sousa's guns, I will present the provenance for the Diamond Quality Prussian Daly pigeon gun.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, in which publication should we expect to read your article? :whistle:






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[Bill Murphy]

I will submit to the Double Gun Journal if I get my provenance in order. I was very satisfied with the Cote treatment of my first Sousa article about his Prussian Daly Diamond Grade Sextuple Trap. Unfortunately, they refused to publish my article on Sousa's Remington Model 10-F because it was a pump gun. The Remington Society of America Journal published the 10-F article and it was a wonderful presentation. If someone will tell me who owns the Sousa AAHE, I will be glad to prepare an article for the Parker Pages.

[Dean Romig]

Okay guys... somebody fess up.





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[Daniel Carter]

Is the S N of this gun known?

[Bill Murphy]

Yes.

[Bill Murphy]

I think the serial number of the Parker is in the Parker records and probably in the Alderfer auction catalog. Kevin and I were both at the Alderfer sale where the AAH Parker was sold. Kevin and I were also at the sale where the other two Sousa guns were sold but we had no idea they were Sousa guns. A little later, the same house sold the double barrel Daly Diamond Grade pigeon gun that is also connected to Sousa ownership. I had no idea at the time that the Daly double pigeon gun had Sousa connections. I bought it because it was a great gun. I still own the Daly pigeon gun as well as the other two I wrote articles about.

[Bill Murphy]

Al Houde, back to the Purdey. In my file of Parker records there is an order copy for a request by William Wagner to reblack the barrels on an unnumbered Purdey. It is the only example I have seen in tens of thousands of Parker records of them working on a gun that is not a Parker. Since Sousa ordered several Parkers through the William Wagner establishment and was a bit of a VIP at Parker Brothers, I suspect that the Purdey sent to Parker Brothers for barrel blacking was Sousa's gun. Too bad no serial numbers.

[Drew Hause]

Philadelphia Ledger March 1915. Looks to be his Smith

https://photos.smugmug.com/Trap-Skeet/Trap/i-WHLzfgL/0/dc6a637d/X2/Sousa%20-%20Philadelphia%20Ledger%20March%201915%20-%20Copy-X2.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Trap-Skeet/Trap/i-WHLzfgL/A)

[Drew Hause]

His AAH

https://photos.smugmug.com/Trap-Skeet/Trap/i-MWrvDvW/0/f662e585/XL/Sousa%20%282%29-XL.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Trap-Skeet/Trap/i-MWrvDvW/A)

Definitely a boxlock and likely his Prussian Daly double

https://photos.smugmug.com/Trap-Skeet/Trap/i-nKSGX9K/0/6fd10381/M/Sousa%20trapshooting-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Trap-Skeet/Trap/i-nKSGX9K/A)

[Garry L Gordon]

A great thread -- thanks to those who contributed.

I recently heard a story from a reliable source that Sousa asked Fred Gilbert for shooting lessons. Any of you trap historians know of this? Is it "old hat" or something that's become part of Gilbert family lore?

I have a former colleague, a DMA whose dissertation was on Sousa, that I've been trying to contact recently. We used to discuss the Sousa grade Ithacas. (Believe me, there were not too many discussions of shotguns going on in the academic hallways at that time.)

I'm now looking for the Murphy/Breeden article and other good suggestions from this thread. Thanks again. I enjoy learning from all of you.

[Bill Murphy]

I would like to think the gun in Drews post was Sousa's Purdey, but the long receiver makes it look more like his A-2 Smith. Garry, the Double Gun Journal, Summer 2013, had my and Tom Breeden's article about Sousa's Lindner Daly Sextuple, with many pictures. Our article about his Remington 10F is in a Remington Society Journal around the same time, also with many pictures.

[Alfred Houde]

I spent a lot of time examining the L.C. Smith A-2 during my museum career. There was a spare stock for it that was numbered to the gun. It was a rather plain walnut stock that I am going to speculate was used in the field.

When Sousa's Grandson donated it to the museum he wrote that Sousa used that A-2 for both trap shooting and duck hunting. My guess is the nicer stock was installed for show and the trap shoots, with the plain one used in the duck blind.

I'm only speculating of course, but it would make sense.

[Garry L Gordon]

I would like to think the gun in Drews post was Sousa's Purdey, but the long receiver makes it look more like his A-2 Smith. Garry, the Double Gun Journal, Summer 2013, had my and Tom Breeden's article about Sousa's Lindner Daly Sextuple, with many pictures. Our article about his Remington 10F is in a Remington Society Journal around the same time, also with many pictures.

Thanks, Bill. I will hunt up the DGJ article today!

[Bill Murphy]

The Sousa Remington Model 10F was displayed and written about in the first quarter issue, 2015, of the Remington Society Journal. Great pictures by Dean Breeden, co-author Tom Breeden's son.

[Dean Romig]

John Philip Sousa’s Ithaca SBT at the ATA Hall of Fame in Sparta IL.



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[Tom Dexter]

If I've done so correctly, attached is an old B & W photo from the A.E Kraus estate of the special gold plated Smith gun Hunter Arms made for Sousa. This photo was made by Terry Allen from the original tattered photo, which is also featured in the inaugural issue of the DGJ.

[Bill Murphy]

Somehow, in my travels, I have also managed to add the last Sousa Grade Ithaca Knick to my collection. Documentation as the "Last Sousa Knick" courtesy of my friend Walt Snyder.

[Randy Davis]

Bill, I remember inquiring about the last Sousa Knick #4021xx a number of years ago when Ironman had it for sale...The had it priced very fair...

[Stan Hoover]

That’s very interesting Bill,

I would love to see that Knick sometime if I may, will you be attending the shoot at the famous Rock Mountain shooting grounds in late July?:corn:

Stan

[Bill Murphy]

Stan, Randy Davis just posted a picture of it. Randy, "priced very fair" is a bit of an understatement. I will probably not make it to The Rock in July. I'm a little weak on my feet lately.

[Randy Davis]

Nice Ithaca Bill... I was just too picky...

[Stan Hoover]

Stan, Randy Davis just posted a picture of it. Randy, "priced very fair" is a bit of an understatement. I will probably not make it to The Rock in July. I'm a little weak on my feet lately.

That does look like a beauty Bill,

I'm sorry you're not going to make The Rock, I hope things improve for you.

Stan

PS. Did you replace that awful White Line pad I hope?

[Bill Murphy]

Randy, what caused you to be "picky" about the only Sousa out there in original metal finish? I was a little turned off by the wood, but the metal needed no attention. Stan, a good friend refinished the buttstock to match the forend, which didn't need refinishing. The stock and forend are now matching with the original sweat in the checkering. The Mershon pad has been replaced with an original Ithaca pad that I got from a serious Ithaca collector. The pad had never been on a gun. The gun is pictured on the shotgunworld.com forum in the "Ithaca Lovers" subforum. Search for "lowgun's Sousa" or just "Sousa".

[Dean Romig]

Seriously Bill? - you posted a picture over there???





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[Bill Murphy]

The pictures on shotgunworld.com have been partially obscured with photobucket logos, but the whole story of the gun is in that thread along with many pictures that Walt Snyder posted for me.

[tom tutwiler]

Save some folks who might be looking for it:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/lowguns-sousa.425362/

[Bill Murphy]

Tom, thanks for linking the shotgunworld thread.