Just my imageination

[Rich Anderson]

Is it just me or is the Home Page photo beginning it's third month? It is a nice picture though.

[Mills Morrison]

It is a good picture. I think it is the second month

[Rick Losey]

maybe post one of a super Fox

or maybe a pump gun for April 1st

[Rich Anderson]

A pump should be a M12. Mills this is the beginning of the 3rd month. Maybe John needs some more pictures.

I won't have a nice Fox until after the Southern...hopefully:)

[MARK KIRCHER]

i like this picture…what say we give it another 30 days…. :)

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

I know its in a case but would make a nice homepage photo, A grade 6 and a grade 5 consecutively serial numbered, gary

[Bruce Day]

Is it just me or is the Home Page photo beginning it's third month? It is a nice picture though.


Send in a nice picture with your membership dues.

[Rich Anderson]

Why would I want to be a non committed insignificant annual member......again:eek:

[John Truitt]

I cant hit the like button enough for those guns Gary C posted the picture of.
Wow!!!!!!!!

[Rich Anderson]

I believe he has the best hammer gun collection in the country. Very, very nice Mr. C:bowdown:

[Bruce Day]

Why would I want to be a non committed insignificant annual member......again:eek:

I am not aware that we have any of those , except in the minds of those who consider themselves uncommitted and insignificant.

[Rich Anderson]

YOU made the comment that the annual member wasn't committed when the question of allowing long term annual members the ability to vote.

[Bruce Day]

Rich, that is not not accurate , intentionally or misstatement.

Being a life member is a demonstration of long term financial commitment to an organization. It is that way with the PGCA, RGS, PF or Rotary. In the PGCA it provides two privileges ; 1) dues are paid up and 2) voting and running for the board. Those matters are in the by laws and can be changed only by procedures for change provided therein.

There are two paths to life membership; 1) most people pay their way, for some it is easy, for others, they have to save for some months. 2) a few people have provided extraordinary service to the PGCA or to Parker collecting such that their service is rewarded by the board by life membership.

If a person has difficulty coming up with the money, I am aware that there are informal payment plans to life membership. Rich, if that is the case, may I suggest you contact a board member about the situation.

For myself, although I am a life member, I owe the PGCA much more than I have ever paid in. When I didn't know much about the guns I received the patience and helpfulness of strangers. I learned much and continue to gain knowledge. I have made good friends from coast to coast, people whom I would have otherwise never met. I have enjoyed comradeship based in mutual interest and appreciation. I have made life long hunting buddies, friends who have shown me areas and techniques. I am indebted to them and the organization that brought us together. For me, there is only one reasonable response and that is to invest my money and time in our PGCA organization that needs my and our help.

[Rich Anderson]

I beg to differ, it is accurate. I was an annual member for well over 12 years so if you want to look at the monetary aspect I had paid in more than many of the older life members.

When the board was asked to allow long term members the privilege to vote the only reply was NO. There was no explanation of the reasoning behind it. The board does whatever it wants to and answers to no one.

I'm done with this I just don't care anymore.

[Paul Harm]

Never thought about it. I am also a annual member in the Remington Society and can vote. Also when I was a annual member [ now life ] in the NRA, NMLRA, and my local sportsmens club I could vote. Interesting thoughts both ways.

[Tom Pellegrini]

I am a member of numerous other organizations both annual and life. This is the only organization that prohibits me as an annual member from voting.

[Rich Anderson]

The annual member has no benefits here other than the for sale section of the forum and Parker Pages BUT for only $500 you can be a life member and vote for people you probably don't know who do what they want to.

I know more about what was going on with my credit union than I did with the PGCA when I was a member.

[Paul Harm]

Rich, it is a good question. Maybe the board would like to respond why annual members can't vote. I'd like to know.

[Rich Anderson]

There reply was a flat No. No explanation of why just because they said so. The PGCA is no longer a small organization. I couldn't get an exact number of life Members but lets say its 250 and IF 80% of them vote (and I bet that's high) you have 200 members voting for what 6 BOD members who control all 1300 or so members. Not all of the life members want to contribute time and energy to the PGCA some have served their time and don't want to continue so the pool of available candidates will continue to dwindle.

[Mills Morrison]

Rich, it is a good question. Maybe the board would like to respond why annual members can't vote. I'd like to know.

I think because life members show a strong and long term commitment to PGCA by writing a big check for life membership. Also, these are the members who generally know the players involved and will make a wise voting decision.

[Mills Morrison]

There reply was a flat No. No explanation of why just because they said so. The PGCA is no longer a small organization. I couldn't get an exact number of life Members but lets say its 250 and IF 80% of them vote (and I bet that's high) you have 200 members voting for what 6 BOD members who control all 1300 or so members. Not all of the life members want to contribute time and energy to the PGCA some have served their time and don't want to continue so the pool of available candidates will continue to dwindle.

Come on Rich. If you don't like PGCA that much, why do you hang around here? Jump back in, the water's fine

[Rich Anderson]

Mills it's not that I don't like the PGCA because I do. I just think that long term annual members should have the ability to vote and possibly run for board positions. In 12+ years of membership I have contributed more financially than the life member who made a one time payment of $300.

How many of the life members do you actually know? Why can they make better decisions than an annual member who has been around a long time? I have been a member much longer than you have but because your a life member you can make better decisions than I can?

In the long run this line of thinking will result in failure. Every organization needs new blood.

[Eric Eis]

I am going to hop into this once, and that's it...I have brought these same points up to members of the board and they have been dismissed. Ok so be it, most clubs allow annual members to vote, as Rich says, maybe after ten years who knows but we do need new blood from the annual members, or is this what I said fifteen years ago, are we aspiring to become an "elitist" club.:eek: Ok know I am out of here, said my peace. Eric

[Michael Moffa]

I was annual member before becoming a lifer. I paid $350 back then and I think I maybe at breakeven now. I receive much more in information and the ability to meet some great guys who share an interest/passion. I held all three Invincible's, bought guns from Jack P., held the 6 frame 12 gauge, hung out with the Ivory Bead Boys, went to Ed M's memorial celebration where I was fortunate to spend the afternoon with Market Hunter. Please know that the least of the advantages of being a lifer is voting for the BOD.

[John Dallas]

Did you have to be a lifer to do those things? Sounds to me like any PGCA member could have enjoyed that stuff

[Rich Anderson]

Any member could do all that stuff except have the ability to vote.

[George Lang]

I am an annual member of the NRA and I can vote for board members. I have been an annual member of the NRA for 60 years, would that be considered a committed member? But I do agree with the comment regarding knowing who to vote for and what there qualifications and level of commitment is.

[Stephen Hodges]

I am an annual member of the NRA and I can vote for board members. I have been an annual member of the NRA for 60 years, would that be considered a committed member? But I do agree with the comment regarding knowing who to vote for and what there qualifications and level of commitment is.

I think that if a person wanted to become a life member but could not afford the up front payment, then perhaps they could pay say $100 a year for five years then they would become a life member.

[Eric Estes]

I haven't been around here that long, but my understanding is that when the PGCA was founded and chartered that is the way the initial rules and charter were written. I think the BOD can change it, but that is no small thing and probably not something simple to do. Changes to constitutions, charters for non-profits, other similar governing "rules" for various organizations are supposed to not be simple to make and changes not taken lightly. I am not discounting some of the good points made, but for a change that fundamental it would take a lot more than just a few voices.

[Rich Anderson]

I haven't been around here that long, but my understanding is that when the PGCA was founded and chartered that is the way the initial rules and charter were written. I think the BOD can change it, but that is no small thing and probably not something simple to do. Changes to constitutions, charters for non-profits, other similar governing "rules" for various organizations are supposed to not be simple to make and changes not taken lightly. I am not discounting some of the good points made, but for a change that fundamental it would take a lot more than just a few voices.

There are only 7 board members and they can change this IF they wanted to but the DON'T want to. This organization has grown tremendously but the BOD haven't grown with the times.

[Eric Estes]

If you feel that strongly about it perhaps a petition with signatures of a large number of annual members would be a more effective way of suggesting such a change to the board...

[Harold Lee Pickens]

My opinion is that all members should have voting privelages.

[Michael Moffa]

No you did not have to be a lifer to enjoy all those things mostly just show up, be nice and polite, enjoy others company and appreciate the artistry of the Parker.

It's amazing what being a PGCA lifer means in some places. At the H+H store in Paris, a notably snobbish place the the atmosphere turned cordial when I told them I was Life member and collected classic American smooth bores I was shown the collectors gun room, Some real neat metal in there.

Now who knows what would have happened if i did not mention the PGCA but the same thing happened at Purdey's. So yes the lifer level does have perks.

[Rich Anderson]

How many of us are going to H&H or Purdy's? I have been treated well by all the staff at H&H without being a life member of the PGCA. I think your grasping at straws.

[Paul Harm]

How about we start a petition on this thread ? Sign me up now.

[Rich Anderson]

I'll go along with that although I'm no longer a member I believe that the annual member is getting the short straw.

[Phil Yearout]

It's amazing what being a PGCA lifer means in some places. At the H+H store in Paris, a notably snobbish place the the atmosphere turned cordial when I told them I was Life member and collected classic American smooth bores I was shown the collectors gun room, Some real neat metal in there.

Now who knows what would have happened if i did not mention the PGCA but the same thing happened at Purdey's. So yes the lifer level does have perks.

I'm guessing that if you'd left the word "life" out of that sentence you'd have been accorded the same courtesy.

I joined so I could read the restricted forums and receive Parker Pages. As someone who's lost in the Central Time Zone I'll probably never attend any of the functions nor get to know any of you fine folks personally, so to be perfectly frank the privilege of voting is not particularly important to me.

[Dave Noreen]

Only the old life member trap shooters have a vote at the Spokane Gun Club!!

[Bill Murphy]

Dave, I assume the Spokane Gun Club owns property, a very good reason to give some power to old life members. Our situation is completely different. By the way, don't mistake me for someone who has an opinion about this. I have been blackballed before and didn't like it. I am here to make friends. I am well into my second decade of "blackball" and I am looking forward to coming back into the fold. By the way, I have been a life member for many years.

[allen newell]

I had the same experience at Purdeys two years ago when we were in London. They couldn't have been more gracious and allowed me into their most hallowed room.

[Stephen Hodges]

I had the same experience at Purdeys two years ago when we were in London. They couldn't have been more gracious and allowed me into their most hallowed room.

Please, this kind of dialogue does not boost the issue at hand. To simply say that you were treated great by a business that feels that they may have an opportunity to sell you an expensive item by “stroking you” and you fell for it is an insult to your intelligence. I could explain this in the context of my political career, but I will spare you the details. Lets just say that if your feel your were treated special due your being a “life” member of the Parker Collectors Association, and not an “annual member” of the Parkers Association, or just "Joe American off the street" then you were had. Allen, you are smarter that than that. Pure and simple. I am not saying that being a life member is not nice, but we do not need to set up a class struggle between life and annual members. This serves no purpose. All members should feel that they are contributing to the cause of collecting and appreciating the Parker Guns.

[allen newell]

Steve, all I merely said to the gentleman at Purdeys was that I was a member of the PGCA, that I collected and shot the American Parker. I do not feel there is a class struggle within the PGCA, others may but I don't act on that feeling at all. When I decided to become a Life Member, I had the money at hand so I sent in my payment. I could give a whit to whether or not only life members are permitted to vote. Others are free to feel otherwise. The governance of the PGCA is not an issue with me. I have enjoyed the opportunity to share my love of Parkers with other members and couldn't care less whether they are life Members or regular members. I have learned much from many of you and appreciate belonging to an organization that shares my belief that Parkers are one of America's finest shotguns and we need to promote this wonderful heritage. My mentioning to the gentleman at Purdey's that I was a member of the PGCA only served to communicate to him how much I valued the double gun world of shotguns, be they English or American. In that sense he knew we had a shared common value and interest. He then asked me if I would like to enter their room where they kept all their records, I forget the name of the room but my understanding was/is that this was a very special room. Sometimes I do feel that at one time I fell off the turnip truck but then my mind reminds me that it was probably being hit too many times playing football. I am not running for office, nor will I accept any such nomination. I'm just too dam happy being a member of the PGCA.

[Rich Anderson]

[QUOTE=allen newell;193509] I could give a whit to whether or not only life members are permitted to vote. I am not running for office, nor will I accept any such nomination. ]

The available pool of leaders shrinks yet again:eek:

[George M. Purtill]

Wow.
I just read this entire thread.
I have to confess. I have never once had any desire to vote for anyone running for BOD. My member number is 28 so I have been around a long time.
Frankly, if you are willing to be on the BOD they should just sign you up. No vote whatsoever. Take the job- do the work.
I am happy to have more people setting up tables, carting this PGCA stuff from venue to venue, selling tickets, writing articles, writing Challenge rules, editing drivel written by illiterate dopes (me), making arrangements with shooting venues, etc., etc., etc.
Frankly, if you don't do any of that for the PGCA whether you are a PGCA member- annual or life- or a BOD member or innocent bystander, then just shut up.
And Rich, you are not a PGCA member. I still like you. But don't criticize OUR website. I don't even know who does the pictures or the web crap, but you insulted them.
We are a volunteer organization. We live on volunteers help. We have an amazing group of volunteers. We produce an amazing website and quarterly publication and amazing events.
Some of my very best friends are among these PGCA members.
So let's cut the drama.

[Rich Anderson]

I never once criticized the web site, this is one of the best out there. I simply stated that the home page picture had been the same for a long time. Just an observation no criticism.

There are several reasons I am no longer a member.

[Steve Cambria]

Wow.

I don't even know who does the pictures or the web crap, but you insulted them.

Shhhhhhh, not so loud George. He sits two desks behind the guy who does the law crap!!

But, hey....how ' bout that Home Page photo??? Hey Rich, the good news is those mallards are now sporting 10" beards!!! :whistle: :bigbye::whistle:


48027

[Rich Anderson]

A good duck gun usually makes for a good turkey gun. I'd love to see it up close. Perhaps you'll bring it to either the Southern or Hausmanns. Either way it's a great gun.:bowdown:

[Bruce Day]

Come on Rich. If you don't like PGCA that much, why do you hang around here? Jump back in, the water's fine

Its more fun to stand outside the open door and complain that they won't let you in and are being mean to you. And you get attention.

[Paul Harm]

Now that everyone has given an opinion, how about someone chime in and give a good reason why annual members can't vote. I have yet to see one.

[Bruce Day]

I'd feel a lot less like this was one of those entitlement issues if we had people advocating for the change who were active and participatory life members. Otherwise it sounds like it comes from Bernie.

[Dave Suponski]

Gents, I have been following this thread with interest as this topic has come up before when I was serving on the board. Trust me this topic was discussed by our board and it was decided at that time to leave well enough alone. Weather the current sitting board will see's fit to change our by-laws to allow annual members with some let's say for the sake of argument 10 years of continuing membership to vote remains to be seen.

But let's first look at a few things....Number one. Our organization is driven by volunteers. So with that in mind. Who is going to keep track of who has been a member for 10 years running? I don't even know if our membership data base has that info. Okay so lets say we clear that hurdle....Who is going to print and mail all the ballots? Also with annual members voting there will be alot more for our election committee to tabulate.

These are just a couple things to consider and I am in no way against this change as any organization needs new ideas and new blood to grow. The old saying"If your not growing your going" applies here.

The point I am trying to make is that for this to take affect we need someone who can do this work.Actions speak louder than words.

Any volunteers?

[Chuck Bishop]

I volunteer C.O.B. Oh wait, he's not a member.

[Brian Hornacek]

I am a new life member and happy to be one. I have met dedicated members such as Larry Frey and Dave Suponski in person and have had numerous dealings with other life members whose objective I believe is to grow and progress this organisation. Do I understand the politics that may be or may have been going which have left some members soured in view towards this group, no. Do I care and do the majority of those on this forum care, no. At some point I may be willing to commit my precious free time and limited vacation that my full time job allows to carry the PGCA torch and at that point I will probably be more vocal in my position.

If you want to change it then join up and take a stand. Its sort of like those that complained about two terms of a certain gentleman, I always ask the bar room and coffee bar whiners what did you personally do to prevent that from happening..................most have nothing to offer of substance beyond break room B.S.

[Mark Ouellette]

Gentlemen,

Kindly keep any reference to national politics off the PGCA forum.

Mark

[Brian Hornacek]

My apology, post revised.

[Paul Harm]

The right to vote by annual members is an " entitlement issue. " Really ? And only those who can vote decide who can or can not vote ? Well now, it all makes sense. I was confused that we live in the USA where everyone has the right to vote. Maybe those in powder, like here, will call it a " entitlement " and revoke our right to vote. Glad someone explained it, I was confused.

[Brian Hornacek]

How is the PGCA different than your right to vote, visiting aliens or those on one year work permits are not allowed to vote, full citizens are. You are in, you are a one year visitor who can join another year if you choose or you are on the outside looking in. Make your choice.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote_in_the_United_States

[Paul Harm]

I don't consider myself as a one year visitor, a alien, or here on a work permit; and I would sincerely hope other life members don't think of annual members as you do. Thanks for the link to Wikipedia so I know where I stand in your mind as a annual member. I'm a full fledge dues paying member. In any of the other organizations that I'm in such as the NRA, NMLRA, and the RSA, as a annual member I can vote. No one yet as given me a valid reason why annual members can't vote in the PGCA. But I will agree with you on one thing - annual members are on the outside looking in. But then, we're just aliens.

[Brian Hornacek]

i think it's great that the other organizations allow you to vote, they have the right to put those rules and regulations in their bylaws. It's great that you are a dedicated annual member. I assume when you joined you read through the opportunities afforded annual vs. life members and still joined as the dedicated contributing annual member that you are. The great part about this organization and other like it is that the bylaws and rules are made by a group of individuals who were dedicated enough to start such an endevor as this one, the PGCA. I was not there at the time but I will make an assumption that they believed that life membership was indicative of those that will to make a commitment and watch things evolve and grow. There are most certainly many members like you who have dedicated years to this cause but there are also many one and done annual members who find a small window of time in their lives with Parker's.

I also believe that there is nothing to prevent a change, become a life member and lobby for the change. I personally do not care if annual member votes or not and did not become a life member to vote and may or may not choose to do so. I became a life member to show my dedication and support.

[allen newell]

"I became a life member to show my dedication and support." My sentiments exactly

[Phil Yearout]

Just out of curiosity, if annual members are viewed as 2nd class citizens - or apparently, by some, not as citizens at all - why are annual memberships even available?

[Brian Hornacek]

We are not 2nd class at all, we are all equal 1st class annual members that get the bennifits listed in the annual member description. It's a great deal, one of the best available for gun enthusiasts!

[John Dallas]

"I became a life member to show my dedication and support." - Perhaps, but for others it may have been an economic calculation

[allen newell]

John, one does not have to become a Life Member in order to demonstrate/show their dedication and support to the PGCA and for what it stands. And (I) we respect that. I suggest that there's been enough discussion of this subject. For those non Life Members who feel they should be entitled to all the rights and privileges extended to Life Members such as they are, I would suggest they make their claim(s) in a more proscribed manner and submit to the Board of Directors but cease with this string of complaining in the Forum. And if anyone has a problem with what I have just said, please just send me a pm and not post it public. We've had enough in my view. Have a good day all. The Boz Scaggs concert last night at the Wilbur Theatre was terrific and left me in a very good mood.

[Brian Dudley]

I have not really paid too much attention to this thread since the beginning since it started out just being about the home page photo. But then I wondered why it had so many pages of posts so i just caught up on it.

I guess i do not have too much to lend to the topic of weather or not annual members should be allowed to vote or not. Maybe the ability to hold a board position and the ability to vote for those nominated for board positions is one of the advantages of becoming a Life Member.

The advantages of being a life member cannot just be a one sided deal like saving a younger member money in the long term. There has to be more to it than that. And, anyone who knows better realizes that organizations actually loose money off life members in the long run. For the annual member the advantages are the private sections of the forum and the Parker Pages. For Life members it is the ability to vote and the ability to serve on the board. And maybe save some money long term.

I became a Life member this past year because i am plenty young enough to bennefit from it financially. And i am commited to the organization and the Parker Gun long term. I also thought that i MIGHT want to be more involved in the organization down the road by serving on the board. And i needed to be a life member if i ever wanted to be able to do that. Little did i know that someone would nominate me for a position in my first year as a Life member. I did not accept the nomination since i am not currently in the position personally to dedicate the time needed for the service. But i am thankful for the nomination.

[Bill Murphy]

OK, I understand why Life Membership has prevented some members from running for office. I will pay the Life Membership fee for two members who will run for BOD positions if they will give the cost of life membership as the reason they would not otherwise run for this office. Yes, $600.00 if they can't pay the freight. No problem. Let's see who will come forward if the Life Membership is not an impediment. If some of my figures are incorrect, I will still pay the "differerence". Good luck.

[Brian Dudley]

And if some cant come up with the money, they can always start a go-fund-me or a kickstarter Campeign.

[Kevin McCormack]

Boz's "Down Two, Then Left" is one of the greatest albums of that era.

[allen newell]

Boz played 2 encores. Boz and his band were unbelievable. A great concert in an old and relatively small theatre in downtown Boston. He played all his greats including ones from that album.

[Dean Romig]

The old 'Wilbur Theater' is fabulous. I went to see Harvard University's rendition of "Hair" there decades ago... WOW!.... (sheesh :shock:)

Kevin, the Life Member fee these days is $500 as it was when I jumped in a decade ago when I really couldn't afford it, yet couldn't afford not to do it.





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