A new (to me) gun.

[Philip Smith]

I am new to this forum because I just obtained a Parker. I found it at an estate sale with other guns laying on top of it. When I picked it up...sweet!
Then I saw it was a Parker, never seen one but knew the name. Long story short we bought it. I have been through the forum and web pages trying to figure out what it is and I think I have. I would like to see if anyone agree's with me.

1905 12ga. CHE (4?) s/n 130369 Damacus and Titanic barrel with cleaning rod. Initials are JMH






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[Bruce Day]

Yes. A valuable and uncommon Parker. The condition is a little rough but it can be cleaned up without much difficulty. Guns like this commonly sell for $6000 to $10,000.

And a C M Powers rod to boot.

[Dave Suponski]

Phil,First thing is that this tells me I should spend more time at estate sales!Congratulations on a great find! From the pictures the Parker looks to be in very decent condition.I would not do anything to it but a minor cleaning after having the bores and overall mechanical condition checked by a competent doublegun gunsmith. If you tell us were you are located someone may be able to recommend a smith to you.

This gun is also very interesting as it is listed in the "Serialization Book" as a Grade 4 12 gauge gun with 26" Bernard steel barrels,capped pistol grip stock and added barrels and ejectors.

There are few Parker guns documented as having "Added barrels" Be still my heart.....

I will add that research letter from the PGCA will add to the value of the gun and may answer questions of previous ownership

[Bill Anderson]

The serial number book lists your shotgun as a B4 (Bernard steel grade 4) two barrel set, capped pistol grip stock, 26" barrels with ejectors. The damascus set should have "Bernard Steel" on the barrel top rib.

Bill

[Bruce Day]

They are Bernards, and I collect Bernards. At 26" , my guess is that the gun is a 1 frame.

This is an important Parker, and refinishing/refreshing/cleaning up by a non Parker expert gunsmith will degrade value. Best to leave alone until you know what you are going to do with it and then be careful about the selection of the right person. I urge you not to try it yourself.

[Bill Murphy]

A PGCA letter may tell you whether the gun was made with a set of Bernard barrels and a set of Titanic barrels (very, very rare) or with two sets of Bernard barrels with the Titanic barrels made later (very rare). Rarer even is the fact that the next gun in line, #130,370 was another multibarrel 26" Bernard C Grade. Maybe they were made for the same person. Please share the information you receive from the PGCA researcher on these two guns.

[Frank Cronin]

Wow... What an awesome find! Nice gun and keep everyone posted on the PGCA research letter.

Frank

[Larry Frey]

I was thinking Philip should run right out and buy a lottery ticket. But why, it seems he already hit the lottery. Great find Philip.

[George Lander]

Phillip: What a great find! The PGCA letter on my CH shows that it was ordered originally with 32 in Bernard Steel Barrels in 1899 (alas they now measure 28 inches). The letter then shows that it was sent back to Parker on at least two occassions the second time in 1906 to have a set of 30 inch Titanic barrels fitted. Larry, Frank, Dave, Bruce and the two Bills are correct. Please get a PGCA letter. You will be glad that you did, I promise you!

Best Regards, George

[Philip Smith]

Actually I must first say that my wife bought the gun, I knew enough about the gun at that moment, but my she is good at bidding. We only had one blind bid against us (that was a gun dealer). I knew he wouldn't over bid. It was a very exciting Saturday morning. Now I think I need a gun safe.

I don't know how to tell frame size of the gun but I am fairly sure the barrels are frame 2. Could I have a gun with one frame size and barrels with different frame sizes? I think I saw somewhere that you could order a barrel later and it would come with the same s/n is that right?

The Damascus certainly needs work and it lost it's color, it looks really nice under the fore stock. The Titanic looks good inside and out. This gun was used a good bit, which I don't mind because thats what they are for.

I don't quite understand the difference between Damascus and Bernard.

Oh..I'm in L.A. (lower Alabama), I wouldn't have a problem send this gun to someone who really knows them.

Thanks for your replies, I'm so excited about this.

[Dean Romig]

This is the stuff of which dreams are dreamt. What a terrific find Phillip - Good Eye!!

Be very careful in cleaning that gun. Don't let any cleaning solvents get on the wood or the original shellac might come off. Doing more than a light cleaning could devalue the gun if done incorrectly.

[Dean Romig]

Take it right up to Jim Thynne and Jerry Kitto at Ivory Beads in Covinna. They are absolutely the best and most Parker-Knowlegable in Ca. They will give you the best advice.

[Dean Romig]

Bernard Steel is a style of composite barrels while Damascus is another style. Bernard barrels were made in Paris France and roughly only about 300 Parkers were ever made using Bernard barrels. I believe there was only one grade 3 and only about a half-dozen grade 5 Parkers made with Bernard barrels - the rest of them were grade 4 or C.

On the bottom of the locking (rearmost) lug under the barrels is where the frame size was normally stamped. A twelve gauge from the time period in which yours was made would have been a 1 frame or a 1 1/2, or a 2 and rarely a 3.

[Dean Romig]

Dale Edmonds does a terrific job of restoring the finish on Bernard barrels. This is what he did to mine and they were worse than yours.

The third picture illustrates a 1-frame lug stamp.


.

[Philip Smith]

Thanks Dean, those are beautiful. I am going to have to get mine done too. I'm not going to touch these. My son and I take care of our hunting rifles (early '40s) but this is another matter.
I was being a little silly, we call lower Alabama, L.A. , but I don't have a problem shipping the gun or parts of it to someone who really knows them.
Mine are both marked 2. I'm going to send off for my letter tomorrow.

[George Lander]

Phillip: The frame size of the action is on the bottom lug of the barrels. Both are the same and if you have the number "2" on the bottom lug, then that is your frame size. It should be the same on both sets of barrels. If your gun was sent back to Parker for another set of barrels they would have the same SN as the original. The same would be true if the gun was ordered with two sets of barrels. Bernard Steel was, I believe, a high quality steel made in France and was a transitional steel that was of a higher quality and more expensive than TWIST, LAMINATED or DAMASCUS.

My choice for restoring a set of Bernard Steel barrels would be Jim Kelly of Darlington Gun Works, Darlington, South Carolina (not too far from L.A.) He is presently in the process of restoring a set of four bore E.M. Reilly barrels for me.

Best Regards, George

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I wonder how many PM's this guy has gotten already? *laughs*

DLH

[Bruce Day]

I would expect that he has and should. Its a desireable gun, it will take some money and knowledge to do right and the fortunate owner will need to decide to cash out or become a Parker collector. If he didn't get private emails inquiring about availability, then its an indicator that there is not much acquisition interest in the gun. I'd be interested, but I haven't inquired and I have enough.

[Bruce Day]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;18591] I believe there was only one grade 3 and only about a half-dozen grade 5 Parkers made with Bernard barrels - the rest of them were grade 4 or C.

Response: I am familiar with a D Bernard 12/30 top lever hammer gun up in the NE. The owner was inquiring about value a few years ago, I made an offer based upon the sale of a C Bernard hammer at open auction but the owner felt it should receive a substantial premium over a C.

There is a GH Bernard 12ga also that is correct.

Three C Bernard 16's and no 20's or 28's are generally known. I have not seen any of the listed B Bernards nor have I heard who has any.

[Dean Romig]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe one of the B's is a 20 bore... I'll have to check my notes.

[Steve Huffman]

How often did they put Titanic verses Acme On C grades /

[E Robert Fabian]

446 where Titanic and 697 where Acme according to TPS.

[Dave Suponski]

Early fluid steel C and D grades were Titanic.I don,t really know when Acme was introduced.I'm sure it's in the Parker Story.I'll check...

[Bill Murphy]

Grades A, B, and C were Titanic Steel when fluid steel was desired until Acme Steel was introduced. Even single trap guns were Titanic Steel until a certain period.

[Dave Suponski]

Thanks for adding that Bill.according to the "Parker Story" Titanic Steel barrels were introduced in 1897 followed by Acme Steel in 1907.

[Philip Smith]

Thanks George for the name. When I get my letter back to further pin down it's value I want to then get some ideas of the cost of restoration.
But I was thinking that I didn't want it to look "new", but show it's age gracefully. I'm not sure how you can do that.
Or is there a standard to bring it back to the just out of the box look?

I'm still a bit confused, Bernards are not the same as Damascus but both have the pattern on them? is that correct? What makes that pattern?

I have not had any PM's, altough my wife indicates that maybe we should sell (youngest going of to college this time next year). This of course brings up the old argument of put money in it and then sell or sell now to someone who would love to have it and would do it up right.

I am inclined to restore it, wait till my son goes to college, turn his room into my man cave and place the Parker were everyone could see it.

[George Lander]

Phillip: Sounds like a plan to me! Just get it done right, then enjoy.

Best Regards, George

[calvin humburg]

I'm still a (boot) at this but heres my 2 cents. Nice gun like all Parkers as far as restoring looks pretty honest to me. One thing fur sure I would take it hunting. ch

[Bill Murphy]

If you are going to sell, I would leave it as it is.

[Bill Murphy]

I am curious about the Acme-Titanic Steel business. If Parker introduced Acme Steel in 1907 as Dave Suponski mentions, why do C Grade single trap guns have Titanic Steel barrels ten years later?

[Dave Suponski]

Bill,Thats a great question.And worthy of further research. All I know at present is that my first SC 180115 was Titanic and my current SC 239511 is Acme.