Parker Reproduction as Curio or Relic

[Victor Wasylyna]

Has anyone ever sought from the ATF an official determination that a Parker Reproduction should be classified as a “curio or relic” firearm? Such a classification would certainly make it easier to collect Parker Reproductions. While Parker Reproductions are not yet fifty years old, do they “derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event”? I say yes. What say you?

-Victor

[Rich Anderson]

Under ATF guidelines they would not be considered a curio or a relic. Just because a gun in 50 years old doesn't automatically qualify it for a C&R license. Many pre64 Winchester M70's don't legally qualify as a C&R. If I remember correctly it has to be pre 1898 to qualify.

[Victor Wasylyna]

Let me clarify. Firearms are entitled to C&R status if:

1. They were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms; OR

2. They are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; OR

3. They derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

I agree that Parker Reproductions do not qualify under Category 1. But there are two other categories. I am proposing that Parker Reproductions should quality under Category 3. They derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact they are rare.

-Victor

[Rich Anderson]

I wouldn't want to fight the ATF by trying to use clause #3. I don't know of any dealer that will ship a Parker reproduction under a C&R license. I don't consider them rare but that's just my opinion.

[Dean Romig]

I agree that Parker Reproductions do not qualify under Category 1. But there are two other categories. I am proposing that Parker Reproductions should quality under Category 3. They derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact they are rare.

-Victor


But they do not. An original Parker DHE 20 gauge in the condition we see most well treated Repros would be valued at easily 4 times the value of a Repro. Parker Reproductions derive most of their value because they are one of the best made replicas on the market. They are not rare. On any given day you can probably find at least sixty Repros for sale on the Internet.





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[Dean Romig]

Rich - 1898 is the date prior to which a gun is considered to be an "antique". It has nothing to do specifically with qualifying for the C&R List.





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[Victor Wasylyna]

Based on the limited production numbers posted on the PGCA website, and the fact that Repros were only produced for five years (1984 to 1989), I think it is reasonable to call Repros rare. Of 23,505 shotguns for sale today on GunBroker, 15 are Repros (about 200 are original Parkers). I am not trying to compare Repros to original Parkers (certainly not on a value or collectible basis), I am just tying to establish that Repros are curios.

-Victor

[Rich Anderson]

Good luck with the ATF on that one.

[Dean Romig]

It won't happen. ATF makes the rules, not us. Repros' are not 'curios' nor are they 'relics'. They are merely 'reproductions' and are not rare.

Incidentally, gunbroker is only one of many dozens of sources of guns for sale or auction on the Internet.





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[George M. Purtill]

It is silly that replicas specifically do not qualify but silly people make these regulations based on silly perceptions.
I myself would rather take on the Feds with their ridiculous and arbitrary exclusion of 8 gauge shotguns from water fowling.
I can win that one.

[Dean Romig]

When do you plan on taking up that fight George?





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[George M. Purtill]

When do you plan on taking up that fight George?

I would need a Connecticut Resident with an 8 gauge shotgun who wants to hunt migratory game birds in CT. And I would need to form a group/club of 8 gauge shooters.

[Bill Murphy]

You are fighting the Feds, not the state of Connecticut.

[CraigThompson]

ATF makes the rules, not us. Repros' are not 'curios' nor are they 'relics'. They are merely 'reproductions' and are not rare.



I don't like agreeing with this guy but in his statement I agree 100% !

[Dean Romig]

I'm not touchin' that one. :whistle:





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[George M. Purtill]

You are fighting the Feds, not the state of Connecticut.

I agree ultimately its federal law, but to bring the case in CT I either need a resident who wants to use an 8 Gauge or I need someone from any state who gets arrested in CT for using an 8 gauge. In CT the people who enforce Federal regulations are generally CT conservation police. I haven't seen a USFWS person in years.

[Bill Murphy]

I think I'll pass on that "getting arrested" business.

[Bruce Day]

There is a BATFE list of C&R approved firearms. Parker Repros are not on it.

Those interested in making a case to the commissioner for C&R listing can make their arguments. Might take a couple years for a decision.

[Jay Gardner]

Has anyone ever sought from the ATF an official determination that a Parker Reproduction should be classified as a “curio or relic” firearm? Such a classification would certainly make it easier to collect Parker Reproductions. While Parker Reproductions are not yet fifty years old, do they “derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event”? I say yes. What say you?

-Victor

This is a fight you will not win. Period. Not even close.

[Russ Jackson]

I just recently acquired my C&R and even more recently bought a Pre 64 Model 70 ,Chambered in 338 Win.Mag .1959 Vintage , the seller paid his FFL to ship the Rifle and even though he agreed the 338 would qualify as a C&R Rifle ,he still refused to ship the gun to me so it went to my FFL , did any one else ever run into this !

[George M. Purtill]

I wouldn't guess that a Model 70 was a C&R, is it?

[Victor Wasylyna]

I just recently acquired my C&R and even more recently bought a Pre 64 Model 70 ,Chambered in 338 Win.Mag .1959 Vintage , the seller paid his FFL to ship the Rifle and even though he agreed the 338 would qualify as a C&R Rifle ,he still refused to ship the gun to me so it went to my FFL , did any one else ever run into this !

It's a C&R gun PERIOD. Your seller has an irrational fear of the ATF. "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

-Victor

[edgarspencer]

even though he agreed the 338 would qualify as a C&R Rifle ,he still refused to ship the gun to me so it went to my FFL , did any one else ever run into this !

Yes, Russ. VA and NY do not honor the BATFE with regard to a C&R being able to receive firearms, and requires any gun which fires currently available ammo to go to an FFL, regardless of year of Mfgr. There may be other states too.

[Jay Gardner]

Would like to hear the basis for a pre-64 qualifying as a C&R.

[Russ Jackson]

The gun came from Wyoming ,I was looking forward to trying out my newly acquired License and saving a little cash but.........

[edgarspencer]

Would like to hear the basis for a pre-64 qualifying as a C&R.

Referring to ATF Reference Guide, FFR, Page 35, Curio and Relics, Para. (a) "Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof."

[Bill Murphy]

Jay, what was your interpretation of a C&R qualified weapon?

[Jay Gardner]

Jay, what was your interpretation of a C&R qualified weapon?

Typical Fed Regulation; very confusing. I can't tell you what is a C&R but I'm very confident that a pre-64 M70 and a Parker Repro aren't and I'm not about to risk money and my firearms to find out.

"Please note that firearms regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) may be classified as C&R items, but still may be subject to the provisions of the NFA."

I would argue that a pre-64 is a modern firearm regardless of its age and, as such, does not constitute a curio or relic, as the same firearm is still in production. This really isn't a fight worth fighting and the potential downside is far greater than the upside of being able to ship without an FFL. But hey, I'm sure that some of the money spent on attorneys to argue the point will be well spent by your attorney. on Parkers.

Bottom line: if I were a dealer I would not ship a M70 or a Parker Repro to a C&R license out of prudence. Last thing I want to do is get into a pissing contest with the BATF.

[edgarspencer]

I don't know what is so confusing. At a minimum, a Pre-'64 Model 70 is 52 years old. From a lay person's perspective, it doesn't really look any different than any nice '03 sporter, built in the teens.
NFA firearms are an entirely different kettle of fish, and are regulated to the nines. A Winchester Model 70, regardless off it's year of manufacture, hass never been an NFA firearm.

Model 70 Bolt action rifles may look modern, but they are treated no differently than the model '94 Lever Action, or the Model 12 Pump shotgun. The date of Manufacture is the sole determining factor in BATFE's classification.

The following two pages are taken from the most recent Carol Watson Catalog. Carol Watson is an FFL Licensee, and, additionally, is a California gun dealer. Every gun they sell is clearly identified in their sales catalogs as ANTIQUE, C&R, or MODERN.
Look at item No.187: Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 Bolt Action Rifle It is clearly identified as C&R
Look at item 192: Post-64 Winchester Model 70 Bolt Action Rifle It, too is classified as C&R. Why? Read the description, where it says Mfg'd 1965. This auction was two weeks ago. Therefore the gun is 51+ years old. CWOC Auction Company has been around a long time. They have attorneys on staff, and are not about to risk their FFL.
I could pull out page after page, showing Model 12 Pump guns, Model '94 Lever guns, and plenty of others manufactured both older and younger the fifty years, and each gun will be accurately designated.

[edgarspencer]

Sorry about that second page

[George M. Purtill]

I think we all agree that gun laws are inconsistent, mostly useless and maddening. I have a C&R and I am happy when it is useful. When it is not, like buying a Repro, I use my FFL dealer, He doesn't even charge me the $25 he could because I buy other stuff from him. So I bring him the Italian jug wine he likes and he tries to refuse it. Its a silly ritual we go through.
But this fight is not worth it.
I live in the state that invented Sandy Hook.
Every time they want a new gun law in Connecticut, they march out some mothers and elementary school kids and BINGO its a done deal.
We just got another one this week.

[edgarspencer]

By Themselves, the Federal laws have remained consistent for years. Where the confusion comes in is when states, Like New York, and their "Safe Act" enter into the equation, either contradicting the federal law, or adding language to it to make their own more stringent.
Virginia Law now will not allow an VA FFL dealer ship OUT a gun to a C&R, either within the state or to another state, and regardless of the recipient state's laws. Anything bought in VA must be done through a 4473. If VA ships to NY, you'll still need to fill out the 4473. If I have a VA dealer ship to me in CT, I may be able (Not having done it since the new CT laws, I'm not sure) Purchase it with my C&R, but then still have to fill out the States own bs paperwork.
With the limitation on buying, then reselling placed on the C&R, the record keeping requirements (keeping a 'book', and keeping up to date) and fewer opportunities to benefit from direct shipments, I personally am beginning to wonder if there are any real benefits left for the C&R licensee.

[Russ Jackson]

I am assuming we have many here that have C&R FFL's so I will ask , I recently received my C&R license as mentioned earlier but have not received my " Book of Rules , Manual etc.,the question is , will I receive something or is this a purchased item and if so does anyone know where I could order such a Manual ,my Regular FFL says they will be mailing it to me ?

[Greg Baehman]

I am assuming we have many here that have C&R FFL's so I will ask , I recently received my C&R license as mentioned earlier but have not received my " Book of Rules , Manual etc.,the question is , will I receive something or is this a purchased item and if so does anyone know where I could order such a Manual ,my Regular FFL says they will be mailing it to me ?
The ATF simply sent me a paperback book entitled Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide when I first received my C & R License. Other than the cost of the C & R, I didn't have to special order or pay for anything. It's pretty big, 8 1/2" x 11" with 243 pages.

[Russ Jackson]

Thank You for the reply Greg , It has been two weeks and I still haven't received my Book ,maybe I will contact them !

[Dean Romig]

I got my C&R about ten years ago. I never used it because I didn't want the responsibility of keeping a "book" and having to surrender it for inspection at their convenience. So I simply let my C&R license lapse.





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[Gary Carmichael Sr]

I was not aware that Virginia laws had changed, Edgar are you saying that I cannot ship a 1898 or older Parker out of state to a C&R or vise versa? I was not aware of the change if it is the case, Gary

[edgarspencer]

Pre 1898 is considered by BATFE to be an antique. I Don't know how VA handles antiques in their new legislation, but the guy at the Cabelas told me "If it can shoot readily available ammunition..................." UPS Doesn't seem to have any issue shipping your guns to me and back, because I always put "...antique..."

Prior to that recent experience, I would have said the premise that pre 1898 being and antique was universally accepted. I'm pretty sure it still is in Calif.

The NEW YORK "SAFE ACT" is being challenged in court, and everyone I've talked to seem to think there is a good chance it will be overturned.

It shouldn't come as a shock to know that there are a majority of State legislators that will draft, vote on and approve laws which are contrary to the US Constitution. The problem is there are too many who just assume they can do this, and efforts to fight for repeal are often poorly orchestrated, and underfunded. I think GOA may be one of the more effective 'good guys'.