DHE Dogs Head butt plate

[scott porter]

Were DHE guns made at the factory with Dogs Head butt plate?

[Eric Eis]

With Parkers you can't say never but normally they had a skeleton buttplate or a Silvers or Hawkins recoil pad

[Bill Murphy]

I have seen at least one original looking DH with dog's head butt plate. It is too high a serial number to confirm a special order in an order book. The stock on that gun is definitely a D grade stock and full length.

[Rich Anderson]

I have a DHE skeet gun with a checkered butt. I believe the skeet gun were either checkerd butts or came with a recoil pd at the customers request. I don't think any had the SSBP.....did they?

[scott porter]

The gun I have is a DHE 12 ga StStk DT with DHBP 14 1/4" LOP- appears correct but the gun has been redone - looks HQ CC and engraving - maybe Del Grego but I don't know prior owners names. Am going to try and track them down. Alternative will be to send the gun there and let them tell me if they did it. Any other suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

[Dean Romig]

Can you show us some pictures of it?

[Dave Suponski]

We have had this conversation before and we know there are at least a few D grade guns in the order books listed as "Rubber Butt" I take that to mean Dogs Head Butt Plate. Guns ordered with a recoil pad usually(but not always)list the pad by maker.

[Austin W Hogan]

The rubber butt term is also used in Parker Catalogs.

Best, Austin

[scott porter]

I have confirmed with Turnbull that they worked on the gun in 1995. He says his records are not detailed enough to tell exactly what they did. He suspects just CC based on short stay for the gun at their shop.

BTW the "Parker Bros." stamped in the water table is double stamped - one over the other slightly off line.

[Bill Zachow]

What is the serial number of the D? The buttplate pictured looks to be a fairly early--before 100000. If the serial of the gun is after 100000, it is more likely to be an aftermarket fit.

[Bill Murphy]

It looks like a pre-1919 gun that may have some order book information available. If it is a full Turnbull refinish and restock, maybe the charge for the skeleton butt was just over to top and the customer just said "STOP".

[Dean Romig]

It looks like 179,342 from what I can see.

[scott porter]

The serial number is 178547 built 1917 and the butt plate looks correct for that period based on info on page 103 of the Parker Story. Turnbull said the gun was there for a week and he suspected they only did the metal. The stock has obviously been refinished but the fit and cracks and dings under the refinish would appear to be older than 1995 when Turnbull did it. I have attached two higher quality images for you to magnify and examine. How do I go about obtaining the order book info. I have sent a research request already. Thanks for all the help.

[Dean Romig]

Judging by the position of the oval it appears the stock may have been shortened. What is the LOP?

In fact, the lack of a spurred DHBP on a 1917 Parker convinces me of it.

[scott porter]

Just remeasured and it is 14 3/16 - 14 1/2.

[Dean Romig]

It would be nice if your letter indicates the original LOP but 1917 might be too late for that information.... or not.

[Bruce Day]

Flat DHBP's, which SN 178,547 ( 1917) has, started being used by Parker in 1921 and were phased in as old stock spurred plates were exhausted in the various sizes.

Whenever I have reason to doubt the originality of a buttstock, I check for the SN stamped into the wood below the trigger guard tang. Its done in a particular manner, and can be added to a non factory stock, but it is a good place to start.

[Dean Romig]

It is not the originality of the buttstock that I would question but the butt treatment and originality of length which the positioning of the oval and the lack of a spur bring into question.

[scott porter]

What do you mean by a "spurred plate"? I have six Repro's but this is my first "original" Parker so I am learning.

[Dean Romig]

Look at the skeleton steel butt plate on your Repros and observe the heel of the stock is relieved in a "widow's peak" to accept the "spur" of the buttplate. This is a feature that was used on virtually 'all' Parkers up until about the year Bruce references - except on guns that were ordered with something other than the 'standard' butt treatment for the grade.

[scott porter]

So the key is still how it was ordered? Will the research letter likely answer that question, if the record is there?

[Bruce Day]

1. new old spare spurred DHBP

2. 1915 VH with spurred DHBP

[Dean Romig]

So the key is still how it was ordered? Will the research letter likely answer that question, if the record is there?

Corect, if the record is there...

[scott porter]

Just got my research letter - that was fast. Ordered by A&F, 28" bbls of Titanic steel, straight grip, F/F (one side is now Imp), LOP 14 1/4, Drop at Heel 2 1/4" - I will have to measure both LOP and drop again to be sure. LOP is from front trigger to center of butt plate - right? I will also check the serial number under the tang on the stock. Thanks to all for your help!

[Dean Romig]

With no mention of butt treatment we must presume your gun was made with a skeleton buttplate. Have you lifted and rotated the trigger guard to determine if the stock is stamped with the serial number?

Yes it is measured from the front trigger to the center of the buttplate.

[scott porter]

I will check under the trigger guard. Thanks. At this point it appears I have a nice looking shooter - right.

[Harry Collins]

Scott,

They are all shooters!

Harry

[Bill Murphy]

Your gun does not have the original stock in all probability if there is no spur on the buttplate. The flat buttplate would have been installed if the gun were stocked by Parker or Remington and the owner did not want to pay for the skeleton buttplate or the stocking was done after Parker quit using the spurred buttplate. In this case, the gun would be considered "factory" by many Parker collectors. Your restock does not appear to have been an unprofessional effort.

[Dean Romig]

I agree with Bill, it is very nicely done.

[Mark Conrad]

I don't recall ever seeing an order for a D grade or higher where a DHBP was requested. There are a few orders where the order states no butt plate or no heel plate meaning the butt is checkered.

I was talking to a very well respected English gunsmith last week and he said the checkered butt was popular because the stock can be shortened or lengthened much easier than a butt with a pad or a SSBP. Makes sense to me.

Mark

[Austin W Hogan]

Remove the butt plate and examine the inletting. Machine inletting was done at the factory, and is very uniform.
Best, Austin

[Dale Zywina]

Guys I also have a DHE (live bird gun) that came lettered with skeletal butplate ,but has a horn checkered that measures exactly to measurement and is factory stock!! The but is serial# to the gun everything matches wich me and Mark have discussed long ago, it is a mystery to me? Anyone ever seen an horn checked butplate period?Dale in Canada

[scott porter]

The butt stock is a replacement - no serial number under the tang. There is a crack in the splinter FE and I suspect it is original. Would there be a serial number under the hardware on the FE?

I know none of you possess a crystal ball, advice is cheap and you get what you pay for - and the help here is free - I have a question. At this point, would further modifications, i.e., repairing the FE, changing the chokes (maybe even Briley), denigrate or decrease the value of the gun?

[Bruce Day]

Would there be a serial number under the hardware on the FE?


Ans: Yes. Parker stamped the SN under the curved joint part at the rear of the forend. Take out the two screws there, the two at the top, and the forend iron should come out easily.



I know none of you possess a crystal ball, advice is cheap and you get what you pay for - and the help here is free - I have a question. At this point, would further modifications, i.e., repairing the FE, changing the chokes (maybe even Briley), denigrate or decrease the value of the gun?

Ans: My opinon: If the forend is cracked, that can be and should be easily fixed. On chokes, I think you said you had F&Cyl? Those are common Parker upland chokes and it would take a lot for me to want to mess with Parker chokes.

Good luck.

[scott porter]

The gun was originally choked F/F so it has already been "messed" with, but that change and the restock may have taken place at the factory - who knows. Thanks.

[Bruce Day]

The general understanding among Parker collectors is that factory restocks were SN stamped under the TG tang.

Parker tight chokes are held in high esteem and some claim they are superior to others. Some people would say to ream them out, whatever you want, its your gun. My personal view is that for a game gun, full and IC or Full and Cyl are ideal chokes. Parker often used that choke set up in game guns.

Dean is right. I was thinking this was an extractor gun.

[Dean Romig]

On ejector guns the serial number isn't stamped into the wood at the rear of the forend simply because there is no area big enough to do this, but rather under the forend iron immediately rearward of the hole through the wood in the area of the latch.

[Bill Murphy]

I wouldn't think that a modification of the tight barrel choke would do much harm since the other barrel has been changed. However, the screw in chokes would make this gun very hard to sell to a collector. This particular gun in its present condition can be sold to a collector or at least someone serious about originality. Does it have Remington repair codes on the flats of the barrels? I can't remember whether we have asked that question. Remington repair codes can explain many modifications, at least in the mind of a Parker collector.

[Rich Anderson]

If you want to have the chokes opened up then IMHO you won't harm the value. I like more open chokes as I hunt over a pointing dog and therefor have closer opportunity.

I'm no purist and have had guns restocked to fit me and chokes opened. you have a very nice Parker and it will stay that way regardless of weather you have the chokes opened or not. This doesn't hold true if you have Briley thin wall chokes installed:eek::nono:

[scott porter]

I have attached a photo of the barrel flat. You can see the crack in the FE. Don't know how to recognize if there are Remington codes there. Seems like more marks than normal.

w.r.t. chokes - I hunt with all my guns. Just wish I could figure out a way to hunt more often. I believe I will use the DHE for ducks and the Cyl/F chokes should work well. After I miss them over the decoys, I can wait till they are far enough away to miss them with the full choke.

Thanks guys.

[Dean Romig]

A twelve gauge 1-Frame is a desirable gun, especially in a DHE. I don't see any Remington codes though.

[Harry Collins]

Scott,

I would shy away from heavy duck loads in a 1 frame. I have two of them and at a round of sporting clays 7/8 oz is all I want. A box of shells in the dove field is OK with 1 oz loads. Out of deference to the lite 12 gauge and my shoulder 1 oz is all I dare out of that frame size.

Harry

[Bill Murphy]

OK, no Remington repair codes, so any factory modifications would have been performed before the Remington takeover. We would have to see better pictures to determine whether we think Turnbull case colored the action. I have my doubts. Besides the water table which doesn't look too much like Turnbull colors, I doubt that a week at Turnbull's (as you suggested) would get you a case color job. It's a nice gun, the forend should be repaired by a professional, and there just aren't any other problems. All this special care for #1 frame guns is not neccesary. A #1 frame gun is the same size as a #1/2 frame gun and Remington made trap and skeet guns on the #1/2 frame.

[Dave Suponski]

Nice gun...What interests me on the barrel flats is the 2.5 and 3 stamped at the breach. Chamber length? Any ideas? 3" would be a little scary for a 1 frame gun though.

[scott porter]

OK, no Remington repair codes, so any factory modifications would have been performed before the Remington takeover. We would have to see better pictures to determine whether we think Turnbull case colored the action. I have my doubts. Besides the water table which doesn't look too much like Turnbull colors, I doubt that a week at Turnbull's (as you suggested) would get you a case color job. It's a nice gun, the forend should be repaired by a professional, and there just aren't any other problems. All this special care for #1 frame guns is not neccesary. A #1 frame gun is the same size as a #1/2 frame gun and Remington made trap and skeet guns on the #1/2 frame.

Turnbull said that they believed just the metal was sent in for case colors and the work was done that quickly. BTW my photo skills leave something to be desired. The CC appear very differently in photos of the same part largely due to angle and reflection from lighting.

[Dean Romig]

The 2.5 could be the chamber length, although I have never seen another with chamber length stamped...
The 3 is the grade stamp for a D-grade gun and is in the correct position for the grade stamp.

[Rich Anderson]

If you want to hunt more than work less. Either way if your succesfull dinner is on the table:corn:

[scott porter]

I confirmed the forend is original. As you noted, the forend of the gun needs repair to the wood and I believe to the works as well. When the forend is mounted on the barrel, the extractors protrude from the breech. When the barrel is mounted on the gun, the forend resists closing completely unless forced. Would you all recommend Turnbull for both repairs?

[Bruce Day]

I recommend telling where you are located and meeting with an experienced Parker collector who can examine the gun and tell you what is normal.

[Dean Romig]

I agree with Bruce. You need good, hands-on advice before you go shipping it off to anyone.

[Bill Zachow]

With reference to Dale's question on the checkered horn buttplate on his DHE--I have a 3 framed G grade lifter, serial 18716, that has a fully checkered horn buttplate. The wood butt has widow's peak inletting that was filled like Parker filled butts that had Silvers pads mounted. The plate screws are properly indexed and the plate fits like it was factory made. No reference to a special plate in the factory letter, however. Interesting gun.

[scott porter]

I live in the High Country of NC - near Asheville, Charlotte, Winston Salem/Greensboro or Johnson City, TN. I also have business in Coastal SC and Savannah, GA that I travel to periodically. w.r.t. local gunsmiths, I have experience with Woody the gunsmith at Hyatt Gun Shop in Charlotte (http://www.hyattguns.com/gunsmithing.html) who fixed the firing of both barrels simultaneously on my 12 ga repro and some minor finish repair on the stock of my A1 repro after I got it back from Geoffrey Gournet. If any of you experienced collectors are nearby, please let me know.