Parker Made Barrels

[Richard Dow]

Their is some evidence and discussion about Parker making barrels for about 18 months in the circa 1879 period. I have also heard that these barrels may have a distinctive mark, possibly a P with a diamond shape by it.
Does anyone have a Parker from that period that has such markings? If so how about a picture. Thanks, Dick Dow

[Drew Hause]

Here you go Richard, with the article by John Davis
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_1742r4n6vcz

T1 Lifter courtesy of Ron Conover with 'PB' in a shield, 'T', and unknown mark covered by the bottom rib. The 'PB' mark has been found on Laminated, Decarbonized and Twist barrels; the earliest SN 0954 and the latest SN 4576.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/353119465.jpg

[Richard Dow]

Drew: I'm trying to put together the idea that the serial numbers were 0954-4576 for Parker built barrels with the PB stamp and the dates around 1879 or the late 1870's as also indicated for barrel production.(laminated)
If Parker made Laminated barrels in the serial number range of 10000-15000 would the barrel also be marked PB or would their be a different P??
If I'm misreading information someone please set me straight. Thanks

[Austin W Hogan]

Thank you , Richard and Drew, this is the most challenging question and topic that has been on the forum in several months.
First, I think collecting Parker made barrels would be a great niche for a serious collector. There is not a lot of information available and it will take serious study to learn to identify Parker made barrels. There are some beautiful Parker barreled guns; Robin Lewis 16 ga L5 is a prime example, and the L2 twenty gauge of Burchard's, shown at last year's Annual Meeting is another. The Parkers in this period have very nice engraving in all grades, and those with ball grips have the best checking patterns of all Parkers. Among these are some guns that look like the barrels were welded up at the bar at a plumbers convention.
With respect to the direct question I have found the PB in shield on some early guns that were refitted with later barrels ( s/n 1953 is one I can account for); it may have been a repair stamp at that time. The PB in shield re appears just after WWI ; it was used as a proof mark on guns shipped to the British Empire that required proof marks to be imported; Ron Mc Donald has a few of these, as noted in PP a few years ago.
The attached pictures show an L3 , 14056. The number on the flats is the order number. It has been to several PGCA meetings and there is a sort of consensus that it is a Parker laminated barrel. Note, in the first photo the P on the flats, in the spot the barrel steel is usually stamped. The second photo shows the change in pattern at the joint, in agreement with John Davis finding that Parker laminated barrels were made in three segments. The third photo shows the L R pattern difference. This is probably one of the plumber's convention guns, but the checking and engraving are so nice I can't part with it.

Best, Austin

[Donald F. Mills]

I don't believe 4567 is the last lifter with the PB mark. This is from lifter #4657 with 30" stub twist barrels, interesting that it is the same numbers in the serial number but with a different order

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=2&pictureid=1311

[Richard Dow]

I am looking now at the left barrel flat of a laminated barrel built in 1879. In the upper left corner of that flat, above and a ways from the barrel wt. is a P. I also see the division of the "3 piece" barrel very very slightly. This one was well done.
Not being one of our experts I beleve this to be a Parker made barrel.
Please don't ask for pictures at this time. I will submit them later. Thanks Austin,Drew: Dick Dow

[Drew Hause]

Thanks for bringing this issue up again Dick, and to Austin and all. I've corrected the document http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_1742r4n6vcz
Looking forward to adding a high resolution pic of the 'P'

Does anyone have a Twist/Stub Twist barrel with a 'P'??

[Richard Dow]

Drew: I don't have a Twist/Stub but I have another 1879 hammer gun with damascus barrels that I'm now curious to study when I get a minute. Of coarse I don't believe the barrels were made by Parker but I want to look again at the barrel flat markings. I'll send a picture of the P when I can.

[Austin W Hogan]

The PB in Shield mark on Parker Lifter 1953 is on the bottom of the locking lug next to the frame size 1. The rib on this barrel has the roll mark found on guns with s/n greater than 18? 20? thousand. This indicates the new barrel with the PB in shield stamp was put there some time later than production of guns with these numbers.

We did articles on numbering, and then other marks on Parker components in PP about 5 years ago. It may be time to review and up date this if input is available.

I think that one conclusion can be solidly made about Parker marks and stamps that are not visible when the gun is assembled. These marks were put there as part of quality control and inventory control; they conveyed no information to the eventual buyer.

Best, Austin

[Richard Dow]

Researching the P on the barrel flats of the same 1879 gun with laminated barrels I was studying Parker Pages and see that Parker designated stock configurations with certain letters. A P was for Half Pistol Grip. Were they ever known to have engraved this on the barrel flats? I suspect not. I'd appreciate it if anyone else with a circa 1879 gun with laminated barrels with a simple P on the barrel flats would let us know. Thanks, Dick Dow Or maybe better yet a P on a barrel flat some years away.

[Mark Landskov]

My 12 gauge lifter, 10250, has a 'P' inside of a diamond on the right barrel. The barrels are marked 'Plain Twist'.

[tom leshinsky]

My 12ga Parker lifter #8899 has the PB in a shield on the bottom of the left bbl. It is damascus, no frame size marked but it is a sweet, light lifter at 6#14oz, 28" bbls IC-Mod.

[Austin W Hogan]

I was just cleaning up my DAM 3 top action with fish tail lever for Josh's show at the annual banquet. It has a P in diamond on the fore end stud where an X is usually found.

Best, Austin

[Mark Landskov]

My 1879 Lifter in 10 gauge has barrels marked 'Laminated Steel'. The un-struck weight is '6 pounds 3 ounces'. There is a 'P' stamped on the right barrel flat, just to the left of this weight. The left barrel flat does not have the patent date stamped on it. A '3' is stamped on the barrel lug. The serial number is 15728. The stock has a straight grip, which I have been told is correct (according to the 'book'). On each barrel, just forward of the flats, is a 'P' inside of a diamond.

[Mark Landskov]

Austin, my barrels look like yours with the 'braided rope' and 'herringbone' features. They are original, not restored, but I can still make out the different patterns. Do you think these might be genuine Parker made barrels?

[Brad Bachelder]

During our refinishing process, we chart and date barrel stamps.
The diamond P remains to be an elusive mystery. What we have learned so far is a few comminalities. This mark appears On lifter and top lever guns, made around 1880. We have identified it on laminate, twist, and Dam. barrels.
It generally is stamped on the right tube next to the extractor rod cut. In a few cases we have seen it on the forend hanger.
Quite often this mark is partially removed by machining. This leads me to believe it might be an acceptance mark, stamped after the initial barrel and lug assembly. Final fitting of the extractor rod clearance often removes some or all of the mark. The absense of braze in the mark also tells me that it was stamped after the lug brazing.

Brad

[Drew Hause]

Mark or Brad: could you please post an ultra close up image of the 'diamond P'? or send by jpg attachment to revdoc2@cox.net and thanks!

[Mark Landskov]

Drew, I cannot get a decent photo of the 'Diamond Ps'. After careful examination, I would say that they were stamped on the individual barrel tubes prior to mating them up and soldering/brazing together. As Brad mentioned above, they have been partially obscured by machining processes. I will post a photo of the barrel flat markings. They will show up fine. Cheers!

[Brad Bachelder]

Drew, we have a good set of various p diamond pics.I will post them and send them to you latter today.
We have noted an additional mark that we believe to be an accepance mark. All of the barrels that we have observed with the diamond on the forend lug, have a small cloverleaf shaped stamp on the left tube by the extractor rod.
We finally have some clear pics of this mark and will post them with the diamond marks.

[Drew Hause]

Thanks gentlemen

Could someone please remind me as to the significance of the mark almost covered by the bottom rib of this T1 Lifter. An inspection mark?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/353119465.jpg

[Mark Landskov]

How's this, Drew? What does the '67' indicate? Maybe the last 2 digits of an order?

[Drew Hause]

THANK YOU MARK. Those are perfect, and the barrels are indeed Laminated Steel. I'll leave the 6 7 to the Parker experts, which I am most certainly not.
I'll get those pics added here http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_1742r4n6vcz

[Mark Landskov]

No worries, eh! I am glad to be able to contribute to 'the cause'. From charts in TPS, I am under the impression that 'Laminated Steel' barrels are sort of uncommon. If mine are Parker made barrels, would that make them a bit more scarce?

[Drew Hause]

Mark: Austin and the experts are all probably at The Vintagers, so I could probably get away with saying about anything until they return :p

This is a pic of Austin's Laminated barrels, which may be Parker made, and are quite crude (with poorly matched tube segments) compared to quality British laminated steel barrels of the same time period

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/387027190.jpg

The forward section of the left barrel clearly shows they were 3 Iron with the weld lines, and another weld line obvious between the breech and forward tubes which have different patterns

[Brad Bachelder]

The first picture is the cloverleaf proof appearing on the forend lug Diamond P barrels.Top lever Dam. set 1884.
Second is forend lug Diamond P. Top lever Dam. set 1884.
Third another lug stamped top lever Dam. set 1884.
Fourth, right barrel struck diamond P, Lifter Dam. set 1880
Fifth, right barrel double struck diamond P, top lever twist set 1888

Brad

[Drew Hause]

Thank you Brad!

[Dave Suponski]

We know that Parker experimented in making their own laminated and damascus barrel's in this time period but proved to costly.Also during this period Parker employees were "contractors" and to get paid for their labors they probably had to stamp their work as finished. So that would account for the numerous"inspectors" marks.

[Brad Bachelder]

Dave I totally agree with you about the inspectors or acceptance marks. I am sure ther were many more that were removed during striking and final machining. We have restored several sets of barrels both twist and laminated, that do not come close to any other patterns that we have seen.
I believe that Parker produced laminate and twist barrels for a short period of time. These barrels seem to carry partially obilterated numbers, two and three digit, on the tubes ahead of the flats. Given the consistency of the various types of Dam. patterns that Parker used, I tend to think that they never successfully made Dam. Barrels.
We are trying to tie the unknown marks to specific contractors by date, Hopefully we can create a timeline for the barrel contractors. As for rib materials, we can not establish any logical pattern, but we will keep trying.

Brad

[Dave Suponski]

Thanks Brad. If we can come up with a timeline for these various inspectors stamp's we might be able to match them with known Parker employees. But I'm sure some will be lost to time. Thanks for all you do.

[Mark Landskov]

What do you think of this '13'? Is it the size of the bore prior to boring? There is a reference in TPS about that. It is a 12 gauge 'Plain Twist' Lifter, 10250.

[Dave Suponski]

Mark, Have you measured the bore's?

[Mark Landskov]

Dave, I do not have the proper equipment for measuring bores. In fact, UPS should be dropping the barrels off today or Monday. They were restored by Brad Bachelder. He may have included a set of 'before and after' measurements. The barrels were literally sewer pipes and required a bit of reaming to clean them up.

[Mark Landskov]

The Parker Story states that the 'diamond P' is unknown. My 1877 Twist barrels have a 'diamond P' on one barrel, ahead of the flats. My 1879 Laminated barrels have 'diamond Ps' on both barrels, AND a 'plain P' on the right flat next to the weight. Is the 'plain P' supposed to indicate Parker made barrels, or is it the 'diamond P'?