Load recipe to open shot pattern

[Dan Hatton]

Hi all,

Sorry if this topic has been covered to death. I tried to search, but didn't find anything relevant.

I just bought a Parker at a gun show. My hopes were to be able to use the gun for 5 stand, but when I pattered the gun with my regular loads (1oz, 14.5gr Xtra light, and Rem TGT12 wads) it seems to be X-full.X-full. At 40 yards 100% of the shot was well inside a 30" circle. I'm doing real good at trap, but it's way too tight for any other game I play. I would never consider modifying a gun this age, but I really want something I can use for 5 stand.

My guess is this gun would shoot completely different if I was using a load that didn't have a modern wad. Has anyone done any work checking the differences between modern ammo, and reloads using fiber wads, overshot wads, spreader loads, roll crimp, etc?

The Parker is a 1910 Vulcan barreled VH with 30" barrels. I would love to have a load I could use that would open up the pattern enough that I could use for 5 stand or sporting clays. I just ordered the load data book from Ballistic products, along with some of the X spreader inserts, and overshot wads.

Rather than reinvent the wheel, I'm hoping that someone has already done the work, and I can just follow in their footsteps.

Thanks in advance

Dan

[Dean Romig]

Your 'new' 1910 VH with 30" barrels choked X-full/X-full is now your new trap gun.

You will need to buy another Parker for 5-stand and SC and yet another Parker for skeet.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Parkers.





.

[Daryl Corona]

Dan;
Dean is right, you need another Parker. But at least try and shoot your F/F VH at 5 stand and SC and not worry about the chokes. You might be surprised how well those chokes break targets.

But... Then again there is grouse hunting, quail shooting, etc. You need another gun for sure. (A Parker of course).

[Daniel Carter]

Dan; you can experiment with Polywad spreaders and any of the others on the market,it will be an interesting learning experience. you will learn a lot about your gun and shells. My son made a device like a ringer washing machine and it slightly de-forms the shot opening the pattern by one degree of choke,full to mod. great for woodcock and grouse.Did this long before these others came out.If you do not recognize ringer washer your under 65.

[Dan Hatton]

I know the ringer washers well. After highschool I worked on commercial fishing boats, and used to work for fish markets for extra cache. One place processed lobster, and we used an old hand crank ringer to get the meat out of the little parts.

That's pretty clever deforming the shot to make it spread faster.

[Gary Laudermilch]

I have a 30" VH choked full and fuller. Not a grouse gun for sure but I shoot it at 5-stand on occasion. It is absolutely a blast to watch targets vaporize. It amazes people when I let outgoers get way out there and then turn them to dust, and that is with 7/8 oz loads. Shoot it, you'll have fun.

[Pete Lester]

Hi all,

Sorry if this topic has been covered to death. I tried to search, but didn't find anything relevant.

I just bought a Parker at a gun show. My hopes were to be able to use the gun for 5 stand, but when I pattered the gun with my regular loads (1oz, 14.5gr Xtra light, and Rem TGT12 wads) it seems to be X-full.X-full. At 40 yards 100% of the shot was well inside a 30" circle. I'm doing real good at trap, but it's way too tight for any other game I play. I would never consider modifying a gun this age, but I really want something I can use for 5 stand.

My guess is this gun would shoot completely different if I was using a load that didn't have a modern wad. Has anyone done any work checking the differences between modern ammo, and reloads using fiber wads, overshot wads, spreader loads, roll crimp, etc?

The Parker is a 1910 Vulcan barreled VH with 30" barrels. I would love to have a load I could use that would open up the pattern enough that I could use for 5 stand or sporting clays. I just ordered the load data book from Ballistic products, along with some of the X spreader inserts, and overshot wads.

Rather than reinvent the wheel, I'm hoping that someone has already done the work, and I can just follow in their footsteps.

Thanks in advance

Dan

I have been very happy with the effectiveness of the X-Stream spreader inserts sold by Ballistic Products. Here are two patterns of the same load through the same gun, 1 1/8 ounce of #6 through a Remington 1894 10ga. It went from throwing 92+ % to 58+ plus %.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/X-Stream-spreader-insert-200_bag/productinfo/3220001/

[William Davis]

Polywad spreader inserts on top of the shot. Use one size larger wad. 7/8 oz shot 1 oz wad. Everything else about your load same. I trust the polywads to 20 yards.

Our club 5 stand 3 of the 8 traps best shot with spreader loads when using my 30" Full & Fuller VH. Two of the traps best shot with Full chokes. Others if you are on the target it breaks, off it won't, Like Gary I try to take the bird were the choke is to my advantage.

Stacked wad loads no shot cup will open patterns up, not as much as the Polywad.

William

[Dan Hatton]

Polywad spreader inserts on top of the shot. Use one size larger wad. 7/8 oz shot 1 oz wad. Everything else about your load same. I trust the polywads to 20 yards.

Spreader on top of the shot? BP recommends putting them in before you load the shot to leave a bit of shot unmolested by the spreader.

Do you use the overshot wad as well?

[Dave Suponski]

Dan, Yes the Poly-wad spreader goes in after you drop the shot. Bill is correct. You reduce the shot charge by 1/8 oz. In 12 gauge Poly-wad sells to different inserts..a solid disc and a disc with 3 holes in the circumference. Use the inserts with the holes...

[Tom Pellegrini]

Dan,
I have a 1901 VH 12/30" F&F. Iload 17.8 grs. of Clay Dot with 7/8 oz. of 71/2 with a claybuster 4100 wad. I shoot sporting twice a week and 5 stand and skeet with it. An old Pennsylvania Dutchman told me many years ago, " keep the wood on the wood and if you are on the target it doesn't matter what choke you have".
Tom

[Dan Hatton]

Dan,
I have a 1901 VH 12/30" F&F. Iload 17.8 grs. of Clay Dot with 7/8 oz. of 71/2 with a claybuster 4100 wad. I shoot sporting twice a week and 5 stand and skeet with it. An old Pennsylvania Dutchman told me many years ago, " keep the wood on the wood and if you are on the target it doesn't matter what choke you have".
Tom

I use the Claybuster 8100 which is for tapered hulls. Is the 4100 for straight walled hulls? Is there an advantage to having 8 petals on the wad instead of 4?

Today I shot trap with the Parker, and I shot 2 X 24's and 1 X 21 with 3/4 oz #8's using Claybuster CB0175-12 wads and 15gn of Xtra Light powder in a Remington-Peters hull.

I think it's either a manufacturing defect in the gun, or it's the gun's age that kept me from getting a couple of 25's today. It couldn't possibly be me! I should have the gun checked out by a very old gunsmith.

(I have noticed that I don't keep my noggin on the stock. The Parker jumps a lot more than my 1100, and for some reason I lift my head off the stock to watch the bird break. BAD habit, that I need to stop quickly!)

[Tom Pellegrini]

Dan,
Before I had my Parkers I always used the clay buster 1078, gray wad. One of the guys I shoot with each week had me try the 4100. Using my o/u I patterned the same powder and shot load, two with the 1078 and two with the 4100. I noticed a more open pattern with the 4100 so I changed. At my club we have a couple of stations that are near water. I have had a number of people ask me, first how my barrels are choked, and then what load and wad I am using. Apparently they are seeing my shot pattern on the water. The owner of Backwoods Quail Club measured the chokes and told me they are full/fuller. He did not give me the measurements, and I think Rick Hemmingway would know how to read a bore gauge. Oh, that old Dutchman also told me "never admire your handy work".
Tom

[William Davis]

Lots of different spreader insert recipes. One of the 16 G forum guys puts most of the shot under the Polywad little bit more on top. He has a long and very good post on 16g.com. Best I have seen on spreaders. Worth reading.

My on top wad is easy and one recommended by Polywad. Aside they don't make a 10 g insert, recommend using the 12 in 10 g hulls. Works fine too. I don't expect a lot out of spreaders. Just give some open pattern for shots under Skeet distances, less than 20 yards.

William

[Dan Hatton]

I got the X-spreader and the Poly-Wad confused. That's why I didn't understand putting the spreader on top of the shot. I was wondering how you would push the X down into the shot. I ordered the X, and it looks like I'll have to order some of the Poly-wads as well.

From that posting on the 16ga site, I see there are uses for both strategy's. I'll try them both out and let you know what I find. It sounds like I can set up some loads to let me play all of the games I'm interested in.

[William Davis]

X and Polywad disk = two different methods. Each has its fans. My shooting buddy swears by the X. It goes in the cup before the shot. Polywad you insert in the wad station after the shot and the one I prefer.

I am not sure it makes a lot of difference or more likely can't tell the difference without extensive testing . Thing about the disk on top I have confidence in it for certain targets. Confidence is 90% of the game.

Side tip I load my regular 7/8 loads I Red AA hulls. Spreaders in Green Gun clubs. Keeps things straight in the pouch. Much as I like 7/8 I do have a few 1oz loads in STS hulls for very long targets. On the one hand you can make the game too complicated. On the other loads tailored to the Gun and Target are nice to have.

William

[Dan Hatton]

Dan, Yes the Poly-wad spreader goes in after you drop the shot. Bill is correct. You reduce the shot charge by 1/8 oz. In 12 gauge Poly-wad sells to different inserts..a solid disc and a disc with 3 holes in the circumference. Use the inserts with the holes...

Do you know the difference between the solid one and the one with the holes? The descriptions are a bit odd. The solid ones say for use in Mod or Full only, and the one with the holes says Cyl, Imp, Mod and Full. What's the purpose for the holes?

I shoot light loads, 7/8 oz 1145fps or 3/4 oz 1250fps.

[Dave Suponski]

Dan, The inserts with the holes allow shot to leak through filling up the center of the pattern. I have tried both and prefer the ones with the holes. I have spent many hours on the phone with Jay Menefee from Poly -wad and I feel I have a good understanding of the spreader load .

[Dan Hatton]

I seem to have a bit of a commitment issue... I just ordered 1000 Spread-r wads with holes, and another 1000 without. I guess if I like the ones with the holes, I can punch holes in the solid ones, and if I prefer the solid ones, I can cover the holes with duct tape.

Between the Polywads, the X-Stream spreaders, the Overshot wads, and the cupless wads, I should have enough combo's for me to spend the rest of the winter at the patterning board without ever paying to try to break a clay!

Just think of the money I'll save in shooting fees! I know how I'm going to finance my next Parker!

[Dan Hatton]

This is what I found when I patterned the barrels from 40 yards. 100% of the pellets are inside the 30" ring.
Right barrel
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1CEhGqC3aUk/VqbYGHEDEEI/AAAAAAAAKDI/j7ah60yJ6R0/s640-Ic42/Parker-right.jpg
Left barrel
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cCGfBZE5IZw/VqbY8He6YFI/AAAAAAAAKDg/TnnHfNhTHiY/s640-Ic42/Parker-left.jpg

[William Davis]

Polywad says the disk with Holes are for open choked guns Solids are for full choke guns. I am not much of a tester, after a brief run with X Spreaders bought Polywad solids in 3 gauges . Never tried the disk with holes.

I am getting low on 12 G solid Polywad disk, using them in 10 & 12, don't have to order any time soon but. If you don't like them let me know I would buy them off you. And no doubt many others would too.

Should add I only pattern the Spreader loads at 20 yards, since that's the intended distance. On Clays courses if seeing a natural chance to check, Shooting into a pond or the like, I will pop one off just to watch.

Other day we were shooting the Club practice field. 20 traps arranged around at random, throw down a Hula Hoop for a station. O/U shooter friend of mine wanted to see how my Parker was choked. Shot a empty clay target box at about 15 yards with the left full barrel, pattern about 12 inches. Did not shoot it with the Polywad shell that I had been using on targets at 15 yards. No sense in letting him in on the secrets of SxS guns

William

[edgarspencer]

Dan, The inserts with the holes allow shot to leak through filling up the center of the pattern.

Stosh, that may be true, but I think they also allow the insert to stay in the shot stream longer. Less resistant to forward movement. Maybe I'm over-thinking it.

[Dave Suponski]

Ya Terry I think you are the holes allow shot to slip through the same as those that like to put 1/8 oz. shot on top of the spreader insert.

[Michael alexander]

That has to be the tightest patterning gun I have ever seen. Many years ago I had a s/b/s with 1/2 and full chokes. I entered the club skeet competition and won the cup .i used fiber wads with cardboard x made with 2 3/4 inch square cards cut 1/2 way and slotted together make the case as short as possible and finish with a roll turnover use soft shot.At that time there were no spreader wads this side of the pond . A bit of a pain but needs must.

[Dan Hatton]

That has to be the tightest patterning gun I have ever seen.

I was amazed how tight the chokes are. I measured the muzzles and got .695 on the right, and the left is .691. According to the internet (The repository of all human knowledge) That makes the chokes Full, and "Do not use on anything you intend to eat!"

It's amazing how this thing breaks all the nice china at the trap range. If you can see the clay on the patterning paper, I have 54 pellets in the one I shot with the right barrel, and 57 in the one with the left. The targets just disappear.

I'm a big time tinkerer, and I bought lots of components. I will post my findings once I start messing around. I'll try all of the combo's I can think of. I bought some of the X's, the polywads with and without holes, over shot wads, and the Ballistic Products "Brush Wads"

The gun club where I shoot 5 stand has a patterning board made of a 4X4 sheet of steel. You paint it first, shoot and take a photo of the splatters. It's a pretty good system I'll record all of my results and share.

If anyone has any special requests, just let me know. I should have all of the components by the end of this week, and I should be able to start testing next weekend!

[Dan Hatton]

I loaded up a couple of boxes with the Poly Wads, and two more with the X spreaders. Shooting Skeet, I got a 20 with the Poly Wad, and a 16 with the X spreader. I need to hit the pattern board, but I only had an hour to shoot today, and I decided to just shoot. It looks like I'm going to be able to use this gun for all of the games I play!

So now the question is, how important is the stem in the Poly Wad? I saw a vintage ad for a commercial spreader load that had 3 over shot cards. Does the stem do much for the pattern? I may have to test that when I get to the pattern board.

[Dave Suponski]

Dan, One of the most important aspects of the Poly-Wad spreader insert is that it is inserted squarely. The post helps to achieve that. Another thing I have found is to not overspeed the load. You need to give the spreader time to work.

[William Davis]

That's it, the stem helps keeping the disk square to the hulls mouth. In pratice with my PW 375 loader, at the wad station. Throw the powder charge. Insert the wad, drop the shot. Same station put the Polywad disk in the wad fingers. Use the press to set the disk. Then move on to crimp. It adds one press stroke.

Most of the time on the Skeet field with real Skeet shooters I use the spreaders 2nd of the pairs and station 8. 6 per round. No doubt I would break more using spreaders all stations. Even more if high gun. But using Skeet to pratice for clays shooting most stations with tight chokes low gun is good pratice.

William

[Dan Hatton]

I'm loading 15gr of Extra Lite and 1 oz of shot. For the spreader loads I'm using the BP Brush wad. It's a plastic wad without the shot cup. The recepie says it's pushing the shot at 1045 F/S.

So far I'm pleased.

[William Davis]

My regular 12 G SxS Clays load AA Hull 7/8 oz 7 1/2 Claybuster CB 178-12 Wad 16.4 Red Dot

12 G Spreader SxS load RGL Hull 7/8 oz 7 1/2 Claybuster CB 1100-12 Wad 15.7 Red Dot.

Lot of discussion on spreaders increasing pressure, over regular loads. I am pretty sure they do given you are adding something to the shot column, some internet posters think so too. I drop one powder bushing from my regular load when using the spreader insert.

If I was loading them just for skeet would probably go to 1oz # 8 or 9 Sporting clays almost always use Spreaders on Rabbits and like the 7 1/2 shot.

William

[Tom Pellegrini]

A while back I pulled some info from one of the powder manufacturer's we sites. Looking mostly for pressure ratings. I load only Rem. nitro hulls. Since there was no load data for cheddite primers I was told they are similar to Winchester primers. Since I just purchased two 8# jugs of clay dot that info is what I jotted down.
rem. Nitro hull, claycuster 4100 wad, cheddite primer:
17.5grs. 5400psi, 1200fps
18.5grs., 5760psi, 1250fps
19.0grs., 7020psi, 1310fps
Same load components with a Rem209a primer and Clays Powder
16.9grs., 5800psi, 1200fps
18.2grs., 6700psi, 1250fps
19.6grs., 7600psi, 1300fps
All loads are with 7/8oz of 7&1/2
I also contacted a test facility in Maryland to see exactly what pressures my loads were since I have a Damascus barreled Parker. The gentleman I spoke to said they would do five four shot tests and because it was just me personally and I was not loading to sell the ammo, he would give me a break in the price. Normal price was$700.00 and they would do it for me for $500.00. Needless to say I will just go by the data I received from th web site.
Tom

[Paul Harm]

Dan, to know what the chokes really are you need to measure the bore and the end of the barrel. You could have bores as big as .740 or more. Those bore gauges are only good if the bores are .729, and many modern guns are back bored, the old ones were made larger or have been honed at some time. You have tight chokes, but could be more than you think. For 3/4oz shot loads, most like about 1300fps to get the pattern to open a bit and not get a " hot center". Tom, I believe Precision Reloading will test shells for $5 a shell. Tom Amberst [ SP ?] will also do it for about the same price.