1st Phase of GH Restoration

[Derek Iske]

So as some of you know and saw at the Major Waldron's New Year's Day shoot, I recently picked up a GH 12 gauge that needed some TLC, mostly with the barrels and stock. However I was given the blessing and was able to shoot it, which was an extremely good feeling.

Well this past weekend was a great day to be indoors and to get a start on the project. As a disclosure I am not a professional and am running off of research from articles, books and advice from the forum here.

These first two pictures really define the purchased condition of the barrels.

[Mills Morrison]

Good luck with your project!

[Derek Iske]

Using various sanding blocks to provide a rigid backing and all cloth backed abrasive, I went to it in order of 80 grit, 100, 120, 150, 180, 220 then finally with wet sanded with 320 grit with oil. 80 and 100 grit are the only grits that really remove any material, the others did a great job of smoothing out the marks made by the 80 and 100 grits. Some deep pits required the use of a smooth file with light strokes so remove some of the pitting. I apologize for the crumby iphone pics.

Being careful to stay away from any engravings on the barrel, as I do not want to send the barrels out to have the engraving re-done. The barrel had some heavy pitting underneath the rust on the first picture.

[Derek Iske]

The end result of the 320 is as such.

The last picture has the barrels soaked in oil, they are also stored that way.

[Derek Iske]

There are a few pits still left which I am not sure whether I should go back and tackle or leave as is as to not remove to much material.

What do you guys think? Either way the next step is to slow blue the barrels with the use of a damp box. I have everything I need except for a metal tank. Thinking about just buying one off Brownells.

[wayne goerres]

This is only my opinion but the slow rusting process tends to cover up small imperfections. Being we don't know what your barrel wall thickness is in that area advise would be pointless.

[Bill Holcombe]

I have done some amature wood refinishing but never metal work. I wish you success in your endeavor.

[Brian Dudley]

What you have so far looks really good.
I would recommend working some more on the spots of pitting you have left. It wont take much more to get that taken care of and of course the end results will be much better if you do. However, i do not know how much material has already been removed and without you knowing how much you have to work with, it should be handled with caution. You would be amazed as to how much pitting can be removed by only removing a few thousanths of metal.

These are damascus, right? If so, a proper black and white finish must be done to obtain the contrast. Not just a simple rust blue (which will be all black).

If you dont want to mess with doing the black/white yourself, i would recommend NO ONE else currently than Dale Edmonds to do it for you.

[Dean Romig]

Dale Edmonds has refinished composite barrels for me and I have been pleased with the result, however..... there are other barrel refinishing experts who do an equally nice job of it. Brad Bachelder comes immediately to mind - Brad has refinished (and repaired) composite barrels for me and I have been very pleased with the result. There are others as well... do some research for yourself on this Derek - advice is good but not exclusive.






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[Brian Dudley]

Exactly... I have my recommendations and you have yours.

[Derek Iske]

Thanks Gents.

Its amazing what a little elbow grease will do. I did not have to take much off the barrels to get where I am now. To get where I am now it took only about 4-5 hours and that includes polishing up to 320 grit. I am just nervous of taking off more in this one area as i already hit it twice. But one more pass will not hurt it.

Yes these are Damascus barrels, and sorry, I did mean earlier that I will be doing the proper black and white finish on them. I already have the ferric chloride acid to etch the barrels in a light solution. I have heard of the logwood boil method as well. I am contemplating on whether to do this. I will wait and see how the contrast comes out before I proceed. I am just not sure of the best way to coat the inside of the barrels to prevent the logwood from adhering to the bores.

[Brian Dudley]

Boiling in Logwood is the Parker method. If you are interested in doing it yourself, Oscar Gaddy wrote some very nice articles in The Double Gun Journal on both his Finishing process and also the Parker process. Look them up. There is a LOT over VERY GOOD info in his articles.

[Dean Romig]

Rubber plugs or stoppers in both ends of the barrels should prevent the solution from entering the tubes.






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[Virginia Hessler]

Derek
Good for you, I am looking forward to the results of your barrels.
Tom

[Mills Morrison]

Same here. Oscar Gaddy's articles are your best resource if you are teaching yourself.

[Bill Murphy]

Corks or rubber plugs. Corks are easier to find and cheaper.

[charlie cleveland]

i believe you can do this your self with all the great advice and guidance you can get here...charlie

[Dean Romig]

Corks are porous.





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[Dave Suponski]

Rubber stoppers are available from McMaster-Carr

[Derek Iske]

I bought a bundle of rubber stoppers off of amazon prime, they will get the job done in the acid bath no problem as they go in at room temperature. However I was not going to plug the bores during the normal distilled water boil after the rusting, I didn't think it was necessary as I would dry out bores with a patch each time. Also I am doubtful that the plugs will hold as the temperature rises inside the barrels, they will pop off due to the expanding hot air. I though about venting them somehow with a pipe or something protruding through the rubber stopper.

Brian, I did a quick search for Oscar's letters but did not find anything right away. Could you send me in a direction? Thanks in advance.

[Brian Dudley]

Oscars articles are in The double gun journal spring 2003, summer 1997 and Fall 1997.

I can only speak to what I do in rust bluing for plugging the bores. I use 36" lengths of 5/16" threaded rod through the bore with a rubber stopper on each end (with a hole drilled through them) and a washer/nut on each end holding the stoppers in tight. I buy the stoppers from my local Lowes. The hole in the rubber stoppers is drilled also 5/16" so the fit is tight around the rod. But there is enough still there for air to vent. I can always see bubbles coming out when in the water. The amount of water that is allowed in is minimal. I use the Mark Lees Express Blue which is very fast acting. I can do a set of barrels from white metal to finished in 5 hours. So I have no worry about water in the bores causing any issues. When I pull the plugs there is just water droplets in the bores which clean out nicely. However, if you are doing a slow rust process taking many days, I would not recommend allowing any water to sit in the bores.

I personally believe that once anyone uses Mark Lees, they will never go back to anything else. Especially if you are doing a lot of barrels. The results are just fantastic and the working time is so quick.

I can only speak in regards to anything from the point of my own experiences and I would not expect anyone to take it as law.

For etching, you will want to plug with separate stoppers (rubber or wood) that will not allow anything in.

[Dave Suponski]

I wonder what Brad uses for a bluing solution?

[wayne goerres]

You need to coat the insides with Lacquer. Then plug your bores for the acid bath. You may not like the results if you don't. I learned this from personal experience. You can remove it with acetone when your are through.

[Derek Iske]

Wayne and Brian, thank you for the information. I was considering doing a lacquer coat on the inside, just was not sure how much of a pain it was to get off. Also wasn't sure if you can get it all off.

Brain, that is a great idea for the rubber plugs. Most likely being a combination of that and lacquer.

[Derek Iske]

Thanks for the recommendation of the express blueing but I am trying to keep this a traditional method. I will be using Pilkingtons solution.

[Steve Huffman]

I wonder what Brad uses for a bluing solution?

Give him a call and ask ,or maybe he may chime in .

[Justin Julian]

For Damascus barrels, you will need to cut the Pilkington's to 50% strength with water. Using the product at full strength may result in a rough finish as the acid will etch the iron strands.

[Derek Iske]

So I went in for another pass on the barrels and it paid off. The pitting is significantly reduced and I thought it was ready for finishing until I noticed this plastic piece, really don't know what it was, but it was imbedded in my breech and a pick easily removed it. Now remains a large pit which is impossible to file out. Was thinking of sending the barrels our to get micro welded, I came across a welder on these forums. $50 plus shipping, quick and cheap to fill in the void. Or should I just leave it as is?

[Dean Romig]

That pit or hole is a non-issue. Just ignore it.






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[Dean Romig]

Xxx






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[wayne goerres]

Save your fifty dollars. You could do more harm than good messing around in the chamber areas. That pit wont hurt a thing.

[will evans]

Thanks for the recommendation of the express blueing but I am trying to keep this a traditional method. I will be using Pilkingtons solution.

I've found this thread, for myself, to be a little thought provoking. Wouldn't the "traditional method" involve dissolving nails and concocting your own home brew? What I'm trying to figure out is regarding the question of "Does it matter how you make the barrel rust, or is rust really just...rust?"

Brian Dudley's mention of Mark Lee's Express formula really caught my attention. Five hours to completion is really impressive, so I started doing my own research.

It appears that every gun maker had their own secrets regarding what went in to making their own rust formulas. Those proprietary formulas, combined with temperature and humidity levels, were what determined the amount of time barrels sat to rust between cardings. Obviously, shorter rust times resulted in faster production - a common goal of every manufacturing outfit. In reading Mark Lee's website, it is very interesting to note that Winchester had a process which would only require barrels to be in the box for 7-15 minutes at a time. Don't you know they were guarding those secrets like the Colonel's Chicken Recipe.

Isn't Pilkington's just a modern alternative solution that was commercially developed by Phil Pilkington to mimic a portion of the traditional rust blue method? My guess is that when Pilkington's hit the market that there were many gunsmith's who shunned it initially, until later discovering that it too would produce an aesthetically pleasing finish that was also durable. It works, and so the formula gained adoption.

[Eric Estes]

Very interesting points you make Will. I am no metallurgist, but as you suggest isn't all that is required a consistent and uniform layer of rust, not too little and not too much? What one uses to get there is more of a production efficiency issue than a quality issue? I don't know myself. I would be interested to hear some other experienced opinions.

[Derek Iske]

I've found this thread, for myself, to be a little thought provoking. Wouldn't the "traditional method" involve dissolving nails and concocting your own home brew? What I'm trying to figure out is regarding the question of "Does it matter how you make the barrel rust, or is rust really just...rust?"

Brian Dudley's mention of Mark Lee's Express formula really caught my attention. Five hours to completion is really impressive, so I started doing my own research.

It appears that every gun maker had their own secrets regarding what went in to making their own rust formulas. Those proprietary formulas, combined with temperature and humidity levels, were what determined the amount of time barrels sat to rust between cardings. Obviously, shorter rust times resulted in faster production - a common goal of every manufacturing outfit. In reading Mark Lee's website, it is very interesting to note that Winchester had a process which would only require barrels to be in the box for 7-15 minutes at a time. Don't you know they were guarding those secrets like the Colonel's Chicken Recipe.

Isn't Pilkington's just a modern alternative solution that was commercially developed by Phil Pilkington to mimic a portion of the traditional rust blue method? My guess is that when Pilkington's hit the market that there were many gunsmith's who shunned it initially, until later discovering that it too would produce an aesthetically pleasing finish that was also durable. It works, and so the formula gained adoption.

What I meant as traditional was a method of rusting, boiling, carding and etching. However after reading articles, Parker had an extremely unique way of finishing the barrels. It is possible to replicated however, I have already invested in the way to complete my barrels such as Oscar Gaddy described in his Finishing of Damascus Steel - Part 2 article. Truly traditional involves using chemicals that are extremely dangerous.

Since slow rusting is slow... I will not be able to do, for example, lets say 16 cycles in one sitting. One thing the articles never discuss is how/when to pause the process and start it back up.

[Brad Bachelder]

I will chime in, I can't resist it after spending the last five days with my son, rusting and carding Damascus. Slow rust bluing"blackening" is a no brainer process that can easily be done with several comercially available products. The secret to slow rust is prep, patina,and color. Damascus finishing is a totally different animal. I make all of my own formulas and they vary greatly with the type of steel that we are working with.
Dr. Gady provided a very good account of the original method. What he did not reveal were all of the control considerations, what to do when things don't work.It took me ten years to fully understand these controls. I would suggest that you follow Oscars instructions closely and there is a good chance it will work. I would not incorporate the Lacquer step. Logwood is a very critical step.

Brad

[Bruce Day]

I am aware that both Brad and Dale Edmonds have redone many Damascus barrels that were first attempted by others.

One set I saw was never going to turn out well because acid etching had created such a difference between the steel and iron elements. A substantial amount of material needed to be removed.

Good luck.

[wayne goerres]

Brad if you are still paying attention, Were do you get logwood. And what do you do when you have to pause during the rusting process like at night when it is time to close up and you haven't completed enough rusting processes.

[Brian Dudley]

Wayne,
Logwood extract can be purchased from several sources. Even ebay. It is sold primarily for dying metal traps black. Can be purchased in 1 lb. packages. And it isnt that expensive when purchased that way. It is much more expensive when purchased from a textile outlet.

[Jerry Harlow]

I am aware that both Brad and Dale Edmonds have redone many Damascus barrels that were first attempted by others.

One set I saw was never going to turn out well because acid etching had created such a difference between the steel and iron elements. A substantial amount of material needed to be removed.

Good luck.

I tried doing Damascus and gave up completely. I do use Mark Lee's Express Blue on fluid steel blued barrels and like Brian, I can do a set, once prepared, in five hours or less, one coat boiled right after another and finished in an afternoon. I am very happy with the results, but learned to boil them several times before starting the process to remove oil. It comes from nowhere and ruins a job (streaked) right as you are finished if you don't.

But I did learn a few tricks; one is that if you do see oil floating on the top of the water, one floods the tank washing the oil over the side. Pulling them out through the oil will streak/ruin your bluing job. After streaking a few sets I also learned not to start over from scratch, but just to take the oil streaks out and let them "catch up" in subsequent coats.

But I am an admitted amateur.

[Derek Iske]

Brad if you are still paying attention, Were do you get logwood. And what do you do when you have to pause during the rusting process like at night when it is time to close up and you haven't completed enough rusting processes.

Wayne,

My plan is, if I have to stop before completion, stop on the wet carding of the barrels step after the chemical etching bath step. After wet carding I will move to a warm water bath of distilled water and Sodium Bicarbonate to neutralize any acids remaining, let set for an hour, rinse with hot water then force dry with a heat gun.

Then I will run wood dowels through the barrels, making sure a couple inches stick out on both sides, so I can suspend them on wood blocks on my bench and drape with a de-greased plastic bag to keep dust off.

To start back up, I may or may not wipe down with acetone.

If you are interested I have put together a procedure on how to do the barrels specifically with Pilkingtons. I can send it to by email.

Derek

[Justin Julian]

Brad, when you say that you skip the lacquer step, are you referring to lacquering the bores? If so, how do you get the log wood blackening out of the bores?

[Derek Iske]

Brad, when you say that you skip the lacquer step, are you referring to lacquering the bores? If so, how do you get the log wood blackening out of the bores?

Justin, see Brad's response on page 3. Very smart idea, I do not want to deal with the lacquer on the inside of the bores.

Oscars articles are in The double gun journal spring 2003, summer 1997 and Fall 1997.

I can only speak to what I do in rust bluing for plugging the bores. I use 36" lengths of 5/16" threaded rod through the bore with a rubber stopper on each end (with a hole drilled through them) and a washer/nut on each end holding the stoppers in tight. I buy the stoppers from my local Lowes. The hole in the rubber stoppers is drilled also 5/16" so the fit is tight around the rod. But there is enough still there for air to vent. I can always see bubbles coming out when in the water. The amount of water that is allowed in is minimal. I use the Mark Lees Express Blue which is very fast acting. I can do a set of barrels from white metal to finished in 5 hours. So I have no worry about water in the bores causing any issues. When I pull the plugs there is just water droplets in the bores which clean out nicely. However, if you are doing a slow rust process taking many days, I would not recommend allowing any water to sit in the bores.

I personally believe that once anyone uses Mark Lees, they will never go back to anything else. Especially if you are doing a lot of barrels. The results are just fantastic and the working time is so quick.

I can only speak in regards to anything from the point of my own experiences and I would not expect anyone to take it as law.

For etching, you will want to plug with separate stoppers (rubber or wood) that will not allow anything in.

[Justin Julian]

Derek,
that was posted by Brian, not Brad. Brian was referring to boiling the rusted barrels in clean water. I too use the same stopper method he describes. But even with the stoppers, some water does enter the bores, which is no big deal where clean water is concerned. Boiling in dissolved log wood crystals is an entirely different proposition. I would be very concerned with any log wood dye getting into the bores. I used to prep my steel water traps by boiling in log wood crystals. It leaves a coarse and very tough black coating on the steel that would likely require filing to remove. A beaver trap set in a fast moving flowage over a dam can stay submerged in the flowing water for months and still retain its black coloring. I would be very hesitant to expose the bores of a fine double to log wood crystal dye without first knowing the effect of that and how to remove it.

[wayne goerres]

Derek You might want to do some more research before you start. The process you are going to use for neutralizing the acid bath stops the etching process but dose nothing to stop the rusting process. It will continue to rust until you arrest the rust process and as far as I know (and I may be wrong) It will continue to rust till it is coated in oil. Brad uses an assemble line and steam to do barrels and he may be doing it from start to finish in a day. This greatly increases the speed at witch he can rust a set of barrels. That"s why I asked the question of him.

[Eric Estes]

I would WAG that after a boil and card they would sit fine overnight. Nice and dry with the current state of finish locked in. Seems post etch would not be as good a place to pause? Just a guess since I have no experience doing it.

[Brad Bachelder]

The only thing we do to prep Bores is to clean and polish. We use rubber plugs fitted with 3/16s plastic tubing. The tubing allows the bores to vent preventing pressure from blowing the plugs. Some finishers Lacquer the outside of the barrels as a final finish, Very bad idea. Burnished barrels will hold for 24 hours without rusting.

Brad

[Derek Iske]

Is it okay to use a Black Steel Tank for slow blue rusting? I would imagine the tank would would develop rusting and dirty up the distilled water. Also the barrels would release debris into the water. Do you have change the water every boil?

[Justin Julian]

No. As long as the barrels have been de-oiled it does not hurt the process if the water gets a little rusty. I typically change water once during the entire process.

[Derek Iske]

So I am onto my 11th cycle now and the barrels are coming along fairly well. I was hoping for a little bit better contrast by now, the photo enhances the contrast better than the eye. There are a couple of dark areas, but I will address those before the next cycle, otherwise for my first time, I am fairly happy with it.

[Derek Iske]

the left barrel at the breech has been the biggest pain. For some reason it does not want to advance in contrast as the rest of the gun. There is also a blemish that keeps coming up with every cycle. I will address this with a bon ami paste before the next cycle. The paste really does an excellent job of lightening up dark areas but it also can take away the finish real quick as I have learned.

Going to do about 9 more cycles I think, diluting the solution as I go.