Rib Matting Terminations

[Bruce Day]

In view of the previous thread questioning cut barrels on the basis of rib matting terminations, here are two uncut, original length, undressed, barrel ends.

1. 1927 DHE 20/32

2. 1910 DHE 20/24

[Larry Frey]

Bruce,
Here's another variation on some uncut 30" 16 gage barrels.

[Russ Jackson]

Here is a 32" ,DHE ,That letters correctly and is uncut !

[Dean Romig]

Never say "Never".

[Richard Flanders]

I think a collection of rib termination photos that is available on our home page is in order. Seems it's an issue that comes up often enough and that there's more variation than folks might have thought. I can contribute one of a 1918 factory cut 26" GHE12. S/N 180459

Change that. We have to date figured that these bbls were cut based on the rib termination, but the muzzles are definitely touching and the keels are there and the gun letters at 26" and they are exactly that, so I'm changing my opinion on this one. It's not cut and just has no matting blank at the muzzle. Make sense?? Here's a picture.

Thanks for starting this thread Bruce...

[John Dunkle]

Hey folks,

I agree with Richard - that the pictures/info from this thread (and the fore-end tips) would make great additions to the research pages. Robin has done - and continues to do - an awesome job on our site in these efforts (Thank you Robin!!!)..

As well - I'd love to see either a date or serial number range on the variations posted for obvious reasons (time period vs. differences in rib termination).

Also - Richard, what is the choke run-out length on those bores? That might be interesting as well..??

John

[Larry Frey]

The 16 gage in my post is serial #139589.

[John Dunkle]

Thanks Larry!! As well - if folks just want to post a serial range to help us identify a year of manufacture, that would be terrific as well..!!

My thanks!!!!

John

[Bruce Day]

The rib termination is a good indicator of cut barrels but not the only, and as we have seen, a gun can be right although it has no rib termination line. I've seen many guns with a rib termination at least a quarter inch back from the end, as was the situation in the previous post. Wouldn't want to pass up a good gun on an incorrect assumption.

An odd rib termination raises issues, but its not the final determination. That's why I started the post and photos are the best way to present the issue.

People talk about altering the rib matting with a Dremel grinder. Yes, they can make it look correct when viewed from above, but since you have to grind away the rib peaks, you have to grind away to the rib valleys and you end with a lowered surface that a careful viewer will spot. Too bad I didn't take a photo to illustrate one of those.

[Robert Rambler]

Ok, So what accounts for the differences? Are we to assume that PB cut down already assembled barrels to shorter lengths for some orders? When were final bore and choke honeing completed, before or after the ribs were laid?Anyone have Meriden's number?, lets call and find out!:corn:

[Bruce Day]

The ribs were matted by a matting machine, and as I understand its operation, a person had to disengage the matt cutting tool at the right time by visual determination. After the lunch beer, maybe his timing slipped.

A few records have been found where a completed gun was sent back to Parker and Parker shortened the barrels. My sense is that is very exceptional.

[Bill Murphy]

I gave Bruce a "thanks" for his post, but I have seen more than a couple of Parker orders where they shortened barrels. In addition, customers thought that Parker Brothers could restore chokes in shortened barrels. In my experience with "fat" bores, I think Parker Brothers did try to accommodate customers by overboring barrels and restoring chokes on short barrels. I, or maybe Mark, can come up with an example. I agree that an album picturing rib terminations, but I think all such pictures should be accompanied by bore and choke dimensions and PGCA letter implying that the termination is factory work. Without such documentation, the termination would be just another rib, original or maybe not.

[Dave Suponski]

Robert,As Bill has mentioned.I have had a couple of guns that are documented by factory records that the barrels were cut and the gun was shipped within a couple of weeks of the order date.An interesting note about this is that both guns had the barrel keels in place.

[Bill Murphy]

Dave, I bet that they still had choke too. I sure wish they were still in business. Whatever you wanted they delivered, and it was "two bucks". No wonder they aren't here today.

[Dave Suponski]

Bill,You are correct.In fact if I remember right they had a fair amount of choke.

[jay shachter]

Finally! Glad to hear this topic coming up. The misinformation regarding barrel matting termination is one of the most pervasive issues for newcomers to collecting Parkers. I can't believe the number of times I have had to explain that it is a viable GUIDELINE, but not set in stone. No bar at the end, flag goes up! Then measure the bore diameter, the length of chokes, the actual barrel length, and if possible, check the factory production info. If the chokes are 4" or longer and the bore diameter is factory, it is likely the barrels are uncut. Even the letter can get it wrong on occaission.

There are factory original Parker barrels that are +/- 1/8" of what is stated or standard. 27 7/8" barrels are not necessarily cut, as is the case with 28 1/8" barrels. The internal dimensions of the bores and chokes are probably the clearest indicators, in my opinion.

That is why it pays to invest in a good, 15" or longer bore micrometer. Look at Hosford and Co. in Ann Arbor Michigan for some of the best shotgun barrel tools in the country. John Hosford is coming out with an incredible bore gauge that will measure 28ga. - 10ga. with no changing of heads, all one tool. His barrel wall thickness gauge is fully portable and accurate, best gauge on the market. Phone number 734 395 9818.

[Bruce Day]

Good advice from a gun dealer. Jay does business as FXE( 616 292 6240) on several internet sales sites and comes to worthwhile gun shows.

[Robin Lewis]

This is good! I took what I learned in this thread and created a FAQ on cut barrels. Look it over and if it isn't accurate let me know and I change it. Here is what I posted as the answer in the FAQ page:The misinformation regarding barrel matting termination to determine cut barrels is one of the most pervasive misconceptions for new Parker collectors. There is an expectation that rib matting stops at the front bead and a bar of un-matted rib is found from the front bead to the rib's end. No bar at the end of the matting and a flag goes up! No bar at the rib's end is a viable guideline, but not an absolute rule.

Most of the time, but not always, expect to find the two barrels touching at the muzzle end for un-cut barrels. But sometime to get barrels regulated to shoot to point of aim wedges were inserted to separate barrels and other times some cut barrels may touch. Again, barrels touching is a guideline and not a rule.

On uncut barrels, the space between the barrels and the ribs at the muzzle end should have visible triangular metal filler strips, called keels, and not simply solder. Cut barrels may or may not have visible keels, because the original keels were tapered triangular wedge about one and a half inches in length and depending on the barrel length removed, some length of keel may still be present. Shortened keels would "probably" have more solder showing than normal because of their taper allowing more solder area to be visable. No keels at all indicates cut barrels.

If in doubt, measure the bore diameter, the length of chokes, the actual barrel length, and if possible, check the factory production information. If the chokes are 4 inches or longer and the bore diameter is factory, it is likely that the barrels are uncut. But, even the factory letter can get it wrong on occasion.

There are factory original Parker barrels that are +/- 1/8" of what is stated or standard. 27 7/8" barrels are not necessarily cut, as is the case with 28 1/8" barrels.

The internal dimensions of the bores and chokes are probably the clearest indicators.

[jay shachter]

Robin, I would correct that not all uncut barrels touch at the muzzles. The barrels were regulated to shoot to point of aim, and sometimes needed to be adjusted prior to finishing them up. There was a wedge inserted between the barrels and as they were tested as to where the point of impact was, the wedge was manuvered until the desired results were acheived. They could care less how close the two barrels were to contacting, but cared about shot patterns impacting correctly downrange. I had a Fox CE 20ga. with a 30" set of #4 weight Fox barrels, factory lettered for 3" chambers, made in 1912 (they didn't manufacture 3" 20ga. shells then) with nearly 3/16" gap between them that hit to point of aim at 40 yards. It was an awesome gun and one that I am trying to buy back. Point is that it broke alot of rules; the chambers were not lengthened aftermarket, the barrels did not touch at the muzzle.

Muzzles almost always touch or come a hair from doing so, but not always. AGAIN, FOR EVERY "HARD RULE" THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS. VERY FEW THINGS ARE ALWAYS OR NEVER. New guys offer unfounded opinions too much, listen too little, and put too much store into what they read. It takes time and experience to see all the variations that occur with these fine guns. I ALWAYS LISTEN INTENTLY WHEN I CAN BE PART OF A CONVERSATION WHERE AT LEAST ONE OF THE SPEAKERS is over 65 years old and HAS BEEN AVIDLY COLLECTING FOR MOST OF THEIR LIVES. You gain more from that than the books can give you. Cherish it now, for the older gents are short on earth. Every generation that goes by we get farther from the guys that were there when it all happened!

[Robin Lewis]

Thanks Jay,

I made edits to my post above "trying" to convey your comments.

Robin

[Bruce Day]

Robin, it may be helpful to explain that the keels are tapered triangular wedges such that the further the barrels are cut back, the more the solder shows.

[Robin Lewis]

OK, it is taking form and I hope will help someone someday. Here is what we have so far.:corn:
HTML clipboardThe misinformation regarding barrel matting termination to determine cut barrels is one of the most pervasive misconceptions for new Parker collectors. There is an expectation that rib matting stops at the front bead and a bar of un-matted rib is found from the front bead to the rib's end. No bar at the end of the matting and a flag goes up! No bar at the rib's end is a viable guideline, but not an absolute rule.

Most of the time, but not always, expect to find the two barrels touching at the muzzle end for un-cut barrels. But sometime to get barrels regulated to shoot to point of aim wedges were inserted to separate barrels and other times some cut barrels may touch. Again, barrels touching is a guideline and not a rule.

On uncut barrels, the space between the barrels and the ribs at the muzzle end should have visible triangular metal filler strips, called keels, and not simply solder. Cut barrels may or may not have visible keels, because the original keels were tapered triangular wedges about one and a half inches in length and depending on the barrel length removed, some length of keel may still be present. Shortened keels would "probably" have more solder showing than normal because of their taper allowing more solder area to be visable. No keels at all indicates cut barrels.

If in doubt, measure the bore diameter, the length of chokes, the actual barrel length, and if possible, check the factory production information. If the chokes are 4 inches or longer and the bore diameter is factory, it is likely that the barrels are uncut. But, even the factory letter can get it wrong on occasion.

There are factory original Parker barrels that are +/- 1/8" of what is stated or standard. 27 7/8" barrels are not necessarily cut, as is the case with 28 1/8" barrels.

The internal dimensions of the bores and chokes are probably the clearest indicators.

[Dave Suponski]

Robin,To add to the discussion....

[jay shachter]

Hey Robin, Sorry if I sounded terse in the last reply. I think the points you condensed are very valuable and helpful for us all to have as a reference point to go to. You stated quite succinctly the issues raised. I found myself drawn into the conversations here as the topic matter is valid and interesting, but I was supposed to be staying on task at work, so I got in a hurry with my response. I sometimes sound harsh when hurrying. If I did, I did not mean to. Good stuff and helpful, Thanks,

[Robin Lewis]

Jay,

Not a problem.... I didn't notice that you were terse?

I though the topic was ripe for the FAQ web page and everyone helped to pull this one together.

When I think of FAQ, I think it should be aimed at someone very, very novice and it is sometimes difficult to present something like this so that it doesn't get so detailed a novice can't follow along. I feel this one is good for everyone, I learned a few things while watching this thread.

Thanks very much for your input! It was very interesting.

[Austin W Hogan]

Robin; You have hit it pretty well on the nose

Best Austin

[Jim Pasman]

The FAQ will be helpful for novices (like me) in understanding the matting or keel indicators of uncut and cut barrels. The most valuable lesson for me was why it is so important to pattern our guns due to the unique hand manufacturing process of the bores, their chokes and final test assembly. Thanks for the lessons everyone.

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, pattern the gun, which may seem to prove that it is original. In truth, it may only prove that it was cut, overbored, rechoked, and is not original, even if it throws a good pattern. What provides real proof of originality is an $90 bore micrometer from Brownell's and knowledge about the average original bore diameters and choke lengths.

[Richard Flanders]

Also - Richard, what is the choke run-out length on those bores? That might be interesting as well..?? John

I finally measured the choke runs on my GHE12. The right bbl is no help... it has about .3" of choke that actually opens a few thounsands. A mini blunderbuss this bbl and likely honed at some point??...certainly not by a modern gunsmith though as the choke portion has a mirror polish, which seems a totally lost art as far as I can tell. woodcock and grouse in tight cover beware this puppy! The left barrel has about 2.5" of choke that constricts .015".

I think that the next time I want chokes opened I'm just going to dig out the brake cylinder hone I've used on my '65 GMC and '66 Bronco, dip it in butter and beach sand and just do it myself. I'd get better results than what the supposed "pros" have done for me... Did someone change the definitely of "polish" in Websters while I was napping or what??

[Bill Murphy]

Richard, "choke runs" are of no use unless you refer to the actual bore diameter when also referring to "choke runs". Maybe you mentioned the bore diameter sometime in the last three pages, and, if so, what is it? So you're one of those barrel rapers, huh? I own several raped barrels, but I've never actually raped one myself. Those raped guns were real bargains.

[Richard Flanders]

Bill: seems to me that choke runs can be of use without bore diameter. If a gun has 1" of choke run it seems it's more likely cut than one with 3"-4" of run. What have I missed? I figured that was why John asked for the runs. I have had only one Parker opened. A 26" F/F VH12. Couldn't see much use for a 26" gun that tight. It turned out to be a mistake but only because of WHO did it and HOW they did it. Very depressing story that is well known to some on this forum. I'll spend the rest of my days apologizing to and for that gun....

I don't have the proper bore diameter tool yet. Just a finger caliper that will reach in 3.5". It works well on chokes and chambers.