Help identifying an Ithaca!

[Jim Majoros]

Please help! We have an old Ithaca side by side that we are having trouble identifying. The serial number insists that it is a Flues HOWEVER, it has exposed hammers which is definitely NOT a Flues. I've included a few pictures, I can add others on request and will answer any questions ASAP. Our initial impression was that this is a Baker, but it has also been suggested that it is a Crass... If anyone can help us solve this mystery it would be greatly appreciated!!!

-Jamey Majoros, Vice President
Viktor's Legacy Custom Gunsmithing

[John Dallas]

Suggest you post this on the Double Gun site, asking for help from Walt Snyder

[Rick Losey]

difficult if you hide half the serial number

some other models - including Flues shared number ranges with NIGs

i have heard there are some errors in here that were corrected in a later edition

http://www.ithacagun.com/pdfs/serialnumbers.pdf

[Brian Dudley]

It is definitely a NIG (New Ithaca Gun) hammer Ithaca. This was before any of the hammerless varieties were offered. And it is a graded gun to boot. Not often seen. Based on the water table stamping, it is a 12g. and the C would be the grade I assume since this is where Ithaca always stamped the grade on the later hammerless guns, but they used a number grading system. Based on the engraving style, it looks to be equal to a grade 3 or 4.

What are you doing with the gun?

[Dave Noreen]

Yes. A Quality-C New Ithaca Gun (NIG). The NIG replaced the original Ithaca Gun Co. Baker Model hammer gun in 1887 beginning at serial number 6550. The NIG continued to be produced along with and serial numbered with the Crass, Lewis, Minier and Flues Model hammerless guns to 1914. Higher grade NIGs are quite scarce.

NIG grades were letters --

the X-Grade NIG equaled the Field Grade hammerless,
the A-Grade NIG equaled the No. 1 hammerless,
the AA-Grade NIG equaled the No. 1 1/2 hammerless,
the B-Grade NIG equaled the No. 2 hammerless,
the C-Grade NIG equaled the No. 3 hammerless,
the D-Grade NIG equaled the No. 4 hammerless, and
the E-Grade NIG equaled the No. 5 hammerless.

In 1914 the NIG was replaced with a short-lived hammer double called the "Two-Bolt Model" that was essentially a hammer version of the Flues Model hammerless.

[Jim Majoros]

The full serial # is 195XX0 which puts the gun squarely within the 1910 Flues serial range. I do agree that it is a NIG, as does the current Ithaca gun Company's historian lady. Apparently she has some of the records from the original company. However, it is our mission to positively identify the model and grade. We'd like to give a current intrinsic value of the gun to our customer. Our customer who owns the gun currently, is the son of the original owner (a physician). The gold shield inletted into the stock has the name of the doctor engraved into it. If we can positively identify the gun, barring any significant historical value, the current owner wishes us to do a full restoration using the original methods Ithaca used to manufacture the gun. He then plans to gift it to his son so as to insure it stays in the family! I wish to thank all of you folks in advance for any assistance you've provided or will provide.

Respectfully, Jim

[Brian Dudley]

I might add just my opinion here if it means anything, i would recommend to your customer to not restore the gun. Obviousky i am speaking based on just what i see of the gun in the photos. But it looks to have a good amount of orignal case color and barrel finish remaining. Guns are only original once and a gun with original condition will always be worth more than a refinished one. And the value will usually never be boosted by more than the cost of the restoration.
In this case, if it needs some stock finish, or checkering touched up or a screw fixed here or there, those things may help the overall presentation of the gun, but if all is in good to very good original condition, leave it be. I think that a FULL restoration of the gun will hirt this one in particular.

We habe established that the gun is a NIG hammer grade C. (Equal to a grade 3 hammerless). Determining a value may be a little difficult since there are few examples out there. I woukd say an equal grade 3 hammerless woukd be in the $2,000-3,000 range. So this one should be in the same ballpark of not more given it is a hammer gun.

[Bill Murphy]

A friend owns and shoots a B grade NIG 16 gauge with 32" barrels. I, personally, have never seen a C grade. A full refinish will definitely lower the value of the gun substantially. I worked in the shop where the B grade 16 was sold, but somehow let it slip away. I once owned an NIG with steel barrels and let that one go too.

[Jim Majoros]

Brian, I fully agree with you on not restoring the gun. The barrels are Damascus twist steel and show very little pitting inside. I've run a bore scope in the tubes and the pitting is very minor and shallow. Short of Radio-graphing the barrels I feel it would be safe to shoot (if desired) with black powder pressure equivalent loads. This is a beautiful gun in good condition with great patina. I personally am leaning towards a light refinish and touch up of the stock set only. There are a few dings and scratches in the wood, which is exceptional and beautifully figured feather crotch American Walnut. It just needs a cleaning to highlight the figure again. Years of accumulated dirt and oil have dulled and hidden the figure. Now that I have several experts in agreement that it is a "C" grade NIG, I feel the customer is better served by leaving the gun "as is". Thanks again!!

[Brent Francis]

Really nice and really really rare. You would have to look long and hard for another. Field grade NIGs are fairly common. The B grades show up rarely on GB and GI but I dont recall ever seeing any of the higher grade NIGs before your post. Thank you for pictures. I have a field grade 12 and a B grade 16 and have shot both with RST 2 1/2" with no problems. I think they are nicer than most of the sidelock hammer guns from that era.

[Dave Noreen]

What makes this gun really rare is that it is a higher grade NIG from quite late in the production period. Walter managed to show a C-Grade and a D-Grade in his book, the C from 1889 and the D from 1901. The C-Grade from 1889 that Walter shows has considerably more profiling on the breech balls and Lefeveresque "wings" on the barrels. I wonder if an E-Grade NIG has ever surfaced?

Here is an A-Grade made a couple of months later in 1910 than this C-Grade --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Ithaca%20and%20Lefever/IthacaNIGLeft.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Ithaca%20and%20Lefever/IthacaNIGGrip.jpg

[Gary Hicks]

S/N 245825 what is the year and is it safe Thanks

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

Jim,
They look like "Chain Link" Damascus to me.

[Dave Noreen]

S/N 245825 what is the year and is it safe Thanks

Walter Snyder has sent the Ithaca records to the McCracken Research Library at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody, Wyoming. I understand they are now doing Ithaca letters. From the serial number chronology in Walter's books it would be 1914, but chronologies are very general and some guns languished in inventory a long time. I've seen Ithaca invoices for guns that by the serial number chronology would be early 1930s that actually didn't sell until 1942.

[Drew Hause]

Jim's post is from 2015 and Austin is correct, the barrels are Chain damascus, usually found on No. 3 hammerless Flues.

No one on the internet can tell Gary if his gun is safe. This is a start
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=366087

[George Davis]

Cody Museum has the records for Ithaca and I would request a letter.