Live Bird Gun?

[Mark Estrop]

I recently came into possession of a Parker VHE 12ga. I've ascertained the following information - 30” 4.5 bbl, trap stock, 2 frame, (1900 date) F&F. The Shield on the stock has the original owner's name. It has a straight English stock, with Vulcan barrels, no safety. The bores of the barrels are mint - nary a scratch or pitting.
I've been told it is a live bird gun. I'm sure it was used for trap because somebody added an adjustable Morgan pad to the stock. Other than that, everything else looks original. Stew Wright at Wright's Model 12 Shop looked it over and declared it a "grand old gun".
What officially designates it as a live bird gun? And how rare are these? I'm a novice with Parkers, so any help or info would be appreciated.

[John Dallas]

Mark - Welcome! Sounds like an ineresting gun. Before you will get much help on this gun, we will need some good close-up pix of the stock, the receiver and the water table.
Providing the serialvnumber will also allow us to see if there are existing records for the gun.

[Dean Romig]

The feature (or lack thereof) of a gun, that folks use in identifying it as a "live bird gun", is the safety... or rather, the lack of one. Way back when, in shooting competitions using live pigeons, a lot of money could be lost or won on the missing of just one bird..... forgetting to push that little switch off SAFE just once in a competition could spell disaster. Hence, when ordering a competition gun an experienced shooter might order it without a safety.
But such guns were also ordered safetyless by trap shooters much later when the targets were inanimate stamped "clay" pigeons. Even hunters would sometimes order a shotgun without a safety. Gentlemen walking in over pointing dogs to shoot 'Gentleman Bob" would see no need for a safety... and there were other situations where a safety was viewed as unnecessary or a hinderance. But, they are referred to as "live bird guns" none the less.

Yours being 30-inch Full/Full barrels on a 2-Frame with a "Trap" stock and no safety, and likely weighing about 4 or 5 ounces under 8 lbs. exactly, are all factors that would lead us to believe it was ordered as a competition gun. (8 lbs. loaded was the maximum legal weight allowed in those early competitions.)






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[Mark Estrop]

The serial number is #96022. The name on the shield is PJ Blair. Here are the pics to follow

[Mark Estrop]

So it is a live bird gun whether the birds had feathers or were clay...

[Mark Estrop]

Thank you, gentlemen - really appreciate the help and information. Are these rare or pretty common?

[Dean Romig]

They are not especially rare but are uncommon.

Incidentally, this is what is considered a "Trap" stock or comb. Notice the width at the nose of the comb.






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[Mark Estrop]

Thanks, Dean! Mine is not wide at the nose, but definitely a trap stock and not a field stock. Do you think this gun started it's life as a live bird gun or clay trapshooter? Or is there any way of knowing?

[Mark Estrop]

Or does it even matter?

[Dean Romig]

When you discover who P.J. Blair was you may learn what he intended to shoot with it. My guess would be clays. The public shooting of live birds was pretty much a thing of the past by 1900.






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[Brian Dudley]

And, obviously the morgan pad would be a more modern addition.

[Bill Holcombe]

Not certain where this gun came from. But here is some info I found on a William PJ Blair who was born in 1847 and died in 1910 in Kentucky I believe.

21. WILLIAM P.J.3 BLAIR (NOBLE2, GEORGE1) was born April 26, 1843, and died July 16, 1910. He married LYDIA A. RICE.

Notes for WILLIAM P.J. BLAIR:

Private in Company K, Regiment 1 Ky. Enlisted October 30, 1862, discharged April 23, 1864. Died in hospital in Louisa.

Children of WILLIAM BLAIR and LYDIA RICE are:

i. CYNTHIA A.4 BLAIR, b. September 18, 1870; d. August 22, 1946, Johnson County, Ky; m. JESSE ARMS, November 26, 1888.

ii. SARAH C. BLAIR, b. October 13, 1875; d. April 09, 1961; m. GEORGE W. RICE.

iii. DORA A. BLAIR, b. Abt. 1878; m. LEONIDAS WEDDINGTON.

iv. CLAUDE BLAIR.

v. CURTIS BLAIR.

vi. CLATE BLAIR.

vii. VIRGIE BLAIR.


Its a shot in the dark, but if it matches with info in the letter, you might have a gun that belonged to a civil war vet. Could be no connection, but there aren't a lot of PJ Blairs out there from the 1900 era.

[Dave Noreen]

The public shooting of live birds was pretty much a thing of the past by 1900.




The 1901 Grand American Handicap at Live Birds was shot at Interstate Park on Long Island, 1-6 April. After New York "passed that silly law" it was moved to Kansas City for 1902, and had the largest attendance ever with over 400 participants. The International Flyer Championship was shot at Kansas City every year from 1917 to 1941.

[Dean Romig]

True Dave, but the "protectionists" were gaining a tighter and tighter stranglehold on the activity around the turn of the century... not siding with them by any means, just reciting general social mores of the time.






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[David Dwyer]

It is my understanding a live gird gun would also have a Beaver tail or trap fore end?
David

[Dean Romig]

Not so David. Live bird shooting competitions had been going on for decades before Parker introduced the "Trap forend".
On the other hand, a true Parker "Double Trap Gun" should almost always have a BTFE.





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[Ed Blake]

I recently came into possession of a Parker VHE 12ga. I've ascertained the following information - 30” 4.5 bbl, trap stock, 2 frame, (1900 date) F&F. The Shield on the stock has the original owner's name. It has a straight English stock, with Vulcan barrels, no safety. The bores of the barrels are mint - nary a scratch or pitting.
I've been told it is a live bird gun. I'm sure it was used for trap because somebody added an adjustable Morgan pad to the stock. Other than that, everything else looks original. Stew Wright at Wright's Model 12 Shop looked it over and declared it a "grand old gun".
What officially designates it as a live bird gun? And how rare are these? I'm a novice with Parkers, so any help or info would be appreciated.

Great gun. You will have fun researching the original owner. And that gun is a VH; it has an extractor, no ejectors. Better still IMO.

[Bill Murphy]

An early Parker live bird gun usually has one or more of several features. Very few have all the features. Basically, it would be a tight bored 12 gauge with 30 to 34 inch barrels. Features generally unique to the live bird gun include no safety, no extension rib (non ejector gun only), and flat rib. It is quite unusual to see all these features in one gun. However, such guns are out there. Guns without extension ribs are quite scarce, as are flat rib guns.

[Harry Collins]

The butt plate had a bird rather than a dog on live bird guns.

[Randy Davis]

Rare 1902 Grand Ameircan celluliod attendance badge... Last sanctioned live bird shoot. But did continue yearly at Kansas City, was known as the Interstate
Shoot at Elliotts Shooting Park...

[Dave Noreen]

The butt plate had a bird rather than a dog on live bird guns.

Huh????

[Harry Collins]

Dave,

Ed Muderlak showed me several live bird guns with this feature. I just skimmed through the two books of his on my shelf and could not find a picture. As I remember there was a pigeon in the circle where the dogs head would be and it was flying left to right.

Harry

[Dean Romig]

The vast majority of twelve gauge Parker doubles were made with thirty-inch barrels and many were used in shooting live bird competitions as well as trap shooting with clays. These guns didn't necessarily have a hard rubber buttplate with the flying pigeon.
Parker Bros. made promotional guns with the flying pigeon buttplate that had the words "The Parker" above and "Trap Gun" below the flying pigeon. Folsom for a short time was the only supplier of these guns and the ones they sold were ordered from PB with "The Folsom" above and "Trap Gun" below. There are no known hammerless Parkers with the flying pigeon buttplate.

So, not all Parker trap guns had the flying pigeon buttplate - only a relatively small number of promotional guns as well as those ordered by Folsom had the flying pigeon buttplate.

All this according to The Parker Story.

There are pictures of both of these styles of flying pigeon buttplates in TPS.





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[Bill Murphy]

Dean, I don't recall any of the pigeon buttplates having "The Folsom" embossed on the buttplate. However, your statement that the pigeon buttplate had nothing to do with live pigeon guns was correct. I am not familiar with any dedicated live pigeon gun sporting the "pigeon" buttplate.

[Jeff Kuss]

Here are the two butt plates. I don't own these guns anymore.

[Dean Romig]

Dean, I don't recall any of the pigeon buttplates having "The Folsom" embossed on the buttplate.


I stand corrected - Thanks Bill. I thought I had a picture or two with Folsom on the buttplate but apparently I don't. And there is no reference in TPS of such a buttplate. Apologies to all.






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[Mark Estrop]

Great info, guys - really appreciate it! Lots of history with this gun - if only it could talk! I'm guessing because of the Morgan adjustable pad, it was primarily a trap gun, with characteristics of a live bird gun.
She had been sitting in a closet for many, many years - glad I can renew her life!