Cut barrels/open chokes

[Bill Holcombe]

Have a parker gun I am considering getting.

The gun has some issues, one of which being cut barrels and open chokes. I am not familiar with shooting such a side by side. Is there a big concern with such barrels for dove hunting or skeet shooting?

[Dean Romig]

How long were the barrels when the gun was manufactured and how long are the barrels now?
I have such a gun which had 28" barrels and have been cut to 24"
It is a great skeet gun, woodcock gun, and grouse gun but I can't comment on its performance on doves.





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[Bill Holcombe]

It was 30 and now it's 28.

[Mills Morrison]

Ed Muderlak did an article in Parker Pages "In Defense of Cut Barrels" or something like that. Even though collector value may be ruined, some can still be great shooters.

[Richard Flanders]

My cut and chokeless 24" PHE16 is a deadly grouse and woodcock gun.

[Steve Havener]

If you are looking for a collector gun cut barrels that are not documented can be and are usually the kiss of death as far as value go.

If you want a high quality shooter cut barrels can be very useful and provide an excellent value depending on their intended use.

Best thing to do is to pattern the barrels and see what type of pattern you are getting at the most likely range you will be shooting. Remember modern shot shells with their plastic wads and harder shot will shoot a much tighter pattern than the ammunition that was in use when most Parkers were made.

[Dean Romig]

A mere two inches cut off the barrels does not necessarily indicate "0pen chokes."

The gun may still have something akin to 'skeet chokes' depending on how it was originally choked. Parker chokes taper a good 3 - 4 inches or even more (according to my bore mics) back from the muzzle.

Two things to do -

1. measure the bore diameter and determine the amount of constriction at the muzzles.

2. pattern the gun with a few shots from the right barrel and a few shots from the left using the shot size you plan to use for your dove hunting and skeet.





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[Steve Kleist]

My "Go To" skeet gun is a CYL/CYL 12 ga Parker though I have a complete collection of screw in chokes. My #2 "Go To" is a 28 ga fixed choke opened to .001" and .003". Both work fine on skeet, grouse, and woodcock. No doves in our neck of the woods. SK

[William Davis]

I have measured the lengths of all my Parker Chokes. It's not real precise because the Skeet's Gauge has some backlash before the dial indicator moves. Lot of linkage between the tip and dial, However all are very long between 4 and 5 inches. Modern fixed choke guns I own mostly get the choke in 2 inches, as do choke tubes. 4-5 inches would explain how 2 inches could be cut off a Parker Barrel with some choke remaining.

I owned a cut 26 inch barrel Parker that left the factory at 30 inches. Skeet's Dial indicator bumped just a bit as it exited the muzzles. It was my impression 4 inches off changed the balance enough that the gun did not swing well. My opinion only, no way to measure "Feel"

Having said that about "Feel" I know a avid Grouse Hunter. He uses 24 inch Automatics, cut down from longer barrels. He has to be the fastest hip to shoot shooter I have ever seen. No swing to his shots, not important to him. Other hand Doves I have hunted need a smooth swing and good choke,

William

[charlie cleveland]

if i liked that cut barrel gun and the price was right i would go for it....charlie

[greg conomos]

Considering Parker shipped a lot of guns with 'cylinder-bore' chokes (no choke), there's no reason a cut gun won't shoot well.

Plus, most shotgun experts know that the advent of the choke - any amount of choke - was the beginning of the downfall of shotgunning. Soon after, they even began producing the repeating shotgun.

[Eric Estes]

IMO, and from many historical accounts when choke was successfully implemented it was arguably as big an innovation as breech loaders.

I agree that a cut gun will shoot well and that if the gun fits you and your needs, and you do not have a collector concern then that is perfectly fine, but I personally do not know a shotgun "expert" that would say choke is bad. Just my opinion...

[John E. Williams]

I've wanted to respond to this since the day you posted it, Bill. Unfortunately, I am just now getting around to it. I've had a number of guns like you're describing over the years and have learned a decent amount about dealing with them. Wouldn't hesitate for a second to give it a go if the price was right.

As others have posted, I agree that cutting the barrels on something like a Parker pretty much takes "collector value" right off the table. I guess you're familiar with the smooth, narrow band Parker left at the muzzle end (just forward of the bead) of most all ribs that had the variegated engraving along its length? I have no idea WHY Parker did that all those years ago, but it's an invaluable resource for us today. If that band is missing, you can generally chuckle at the seller hollering about their inflated collector price and often end up purchasing the gun for a greatly reduced price. At least, that's been my experience. I've heard there were a very few guns produced that did NOT have the rib band, but I'd have to see the letter confirming original barrel length before a gun like that would even be considered as being worth full value.

Enough about Parker specifics. I probably know just enough about Parkers to keep from getting burned too badly, most of the time, so back to your cut barrel question from a mechanical perspective. I've had a number of cut guns in the 24" range that pointed exceptionally well and were absolute terrors on the short-range birds like grouse, woodcock, quail, and the like. I don't recall many of them swinging very well because cutting the barrels off reduces the gun's mass forward of the balance point and as a result, removing this forward mass shifts the gun's balance point farther rearward. This tends to make for an ill-handling gun. Usually awkward and anything but smooth. However, removing weight from the rear of the gun or adding it to the front can restore the proper balance point and help with this condition. The short guns do tend to point better than the longer barrels though, and this is why many bird hunters like them. Shooting doves is a challenge with most any gun and in my experience, it takes a lot of gun to do any good with them. A key to success in the dove fields seems to be a longer barrel on a well balanced gun (smooth swinging) and quite a bit of choke. I generally lean toward a full choke and seem to do okay with that around here. I wouldn't even consider those birds as an option with a gun like we're discussing.

For skeet, grouse, woodcock, quail, and rabbit, the cut-down 24" gun can be made to shoot just fine. One of my friends has had good luck with one on close-holding pheasants, but snap shooting is the order of the day and he consistently passes on birds that get up out near the edge of the gun's effective range. Assuming the price is right and you get the gun, following are the things I'd do to identify and then manipulate the gun's patterns, in order:

1. After checking the gun over and satisfying yourself the gun is safe to shoot, run a tight fitting swab or wad of oiled patches down each bore from the chamber end. If there's any choke left in the tube, you'll be able to feel it.

2. Measure the muzzles. I do this simply because people are going to ask. Don't be alarmed if your old 12 gauge that should have a .729" bore measures .738" or some such at the muzzle. A lot of older guns seem to have been made with slightly oversize bores so again, don't get too spun up about the numbers.

3. Determine the chamber length and buy shells accordingly. A 2-3/4" high-brass pheasant load will chamber just fine in a gun with the old 2-1/2" chamber (no need to tell you how I know this, right?), but the longer shell will be unfolding it's crimp INSIDE the tapered forcing cone just ahead of the chamber. Trying to shove all that shot and wad through the taper is a pretty big component of generating the pressures that occur when a shotgun shell is fired. If that forcing cone is further reduced in diameter as a result of the extra plastic, you're going to generate a lot more pressure and can damage the gun.

4. Next, actually pattern the gun. This is where the so-called "rubber hits the road" and will give you definitive data to analyze and determine what you're working with. Knowing the percentage each barrel is shooting, along with pattern density in relationship to point of aim, will precisely show you the gun's effective range and define reasonable performance objectives.

5. You can loosen and tighten the patterns on a particular gun by using different types of shells. Generally speaking, one loaded with finer shot at higher velocities will pattern tighter than one using larger shot at lower velocities. Edit: As pointed out by Daryl below in post #15, some research today has shown I was perfectly bass-ackwards in this statement! Ignore this and go with what he says. Big, slow shot holds a tighter pattern than small fast shot...I've used this strategy from time to time in double guns to either bring the patterns of the two barrels closer together or increase their difference based on shooting conditions. On the extreme ends of the spectrum, you can employ spreader wads and/or cubic shot to achieve wide-open patterns in tighter chokes, while glued, taped, or heat-staked wads can be employed to tighten patterns dramatically in loosely choked, or even cylinder bore guns. There are many variations on these tactics, so consider this a very broad overview.

6. If all else fails, you can always try jug choking. If you're unfamiliar with that term, it merely involves increasing the bore diameter for a length back behind the muzzle. It doesn't seem as effective as a factory-bored choke, but does tend to tighten patterns. I've done this to several guns and my results at the pattern board have been good enough for me to accept it as a valid option.

I hope this has given you a thing or two to think about, or maybe even offered a workable solution. Get the old gun for a scalding low price you can brag about and post up some photos!

[Daryl Corona]

John;
Thanks for your post as it might give the buyer of a cut gun some hope. I do not own a 24" gun, so I can't comment on their handling, but I do own a number of 26" guns and they handle/balance as they should.
I will take issue on your comments in point #5. I have found that small shot (8.5 and 9's) pushed at higher velocities tend to open a pattern whereas larger shot (7.5 and larger) pushed at moderate velocities (1125-1200fps) tend to keep the pattern tighter. Your mileage may vary.

[John E. Williams]

I will take issue on your comments in point #5. I have found that small shot (8.5 and 9's) pushed at higher velocities tend to open a pattern whereas larger shot (7.5 and larger) pushed at moderate velocities (1125-1200fps) tend to keep the pattern tighter. Your mileage may vary.

Thanks for weighing in with this, Daryl. After posting, I started wondering if I'd stated that correctly or had perhaps gotten it backward. Perhaps some others will weigh in with their experiences? Part of my mind is confidently telling me the greater drag (generated by the larger frontal area) and increased tendency to deform generally produces a more open pattern with larger shot, but I could have it totally flipped. Should have written all this down when I was younger, right? :p

I'm planning to do some patterning with my 16 gauge bird gun in the next few weeks, as I went to an entirely new shell for it. I'll experiment with shot sizes while out there and report the findings. Of course, that will only tell us how MY Parker responds to THIS particular shell with different shot sizes but any sound data is good data, I believe.

[Daryl Corona]

Part of my mind is confidently telling me the greater drag (generated by the larger frontal area) and increased tendency to deform generally produces a more open pattern with larger shot, but I could have it totally flipped. Should have written all this down when I was younger, right?






All things being equal John, larger shot (especially higher antimony) will deform less upon setback as there is less surface area exposed on pellet to pellet contact. Keep in mind that higher antimony 8.5 and 9's do not benefit from the higher antimony content as do larger pellets. In my humble opinion, 7.5's are the perfect all around shot size.