Need evaluation help

[Richard Flanders]

A dealer friend may take this gun in to sell on consignment and is wondering about a value. What better place to start than here. It's a G grade 12ga. Bores clean, barrels clean externally(he says 90%), action tight, 30" bbls M/F. #1 frame. The pics he sent me should tell the rest. What would folks guess as to a value? I have no stake in this gun and am just helping a friend who wants to know what to put on a price tag in his shop. S/N indicates 1896 production. Didn't get a muzzle picture or pics of more of the bbls.

[Dean Romig]

$2,400 - $2,800 ... IMHO

The only thing that might weigh against it is the pinned stock head.... and that may mean nothing at all to many of us. There is evidence that a few new Parkers were ordered with a pinned head.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Unless a letter states that it was ordered with a pinned head I'd say it would hurt it a bit. Dandy gun otherwise, nothing like a straight grip.

DLH

[Bill Murphy]

Scarce gun, straight grip, #1 frame. Wood looks unmolested, except for the pin. Closer inspection may show the barrels to be perfect. What's not to like?

[Eric Eis]

Nice little gun, like that straight grip, and the pin can be made to disappear fairly easy and cost would only be a couple of hundred bucks.

[Richard Flanders]

Ok then. If anyone feels they can't do without it, it's now for sale at hillrodandgun.com. Charles Pfleger of Bozeman, MT proprietor.....

[Jean Swanson]

If I recall correctly , when we where copying the stock books in Ilion--I remember seeing that Parker offered an option to "pin"a fractured stock for $2.00 instead of replacing the entire stock , Mark -maybe you might want to chime in !! Allan

[Bill Murphy]

I was assuming an 1896 GH Grade would be a Damascus gun. Is it a Damascus gun? Hill says it it "steel", but what kind of steel?

[Dean Romig]

A letter might tell if it went back for replacement barrels at some time. Vulcan Steel barrels, however, were available in 1896 but if it went back later during the "Damascus barrels are dangerous" scare they could be Vulcan, PS, or even PSS without going above grade.

[Richard Flanders]

It has Vulcan steel bbls. with same S/N as frame. 3#11oz bbl wt, and a "Kf" stamped on the table.

[Bill Murphy]

That puts a whole new shine on this gun. A PGCA letter would create more interest in the gun.

[Richard Flanders]

Oops. I forgot; He also told me on the phone yesterday that it has a "V" on the table, indicating the bbls are original to the gun I assume.

[Dean Romig]

Ooops... now that puts a whole new "shine" on this gun. By all appearances it is a Grade 2 or G and the G should be stamped on the water table, the "2" above the serial number and the "G" stamped below the serial number. I'm not aware that Parker Bros would alter the grade stamp when fluid pressed steel barrels were fitted. Even when a buyer requested upgraded engraving or the absence of any engraving at all the grade stamp remained the same to the best of my knowledge.

Gotta get a letter on this gun!!

[Bill Murphy]

Does your description of "the table" mean the flat of the receiver or the flat of the barrels. A "V" would be common on the barrel flat. A "V" on the receiver flat would definitely be unusual.

[Richard Flanders]

Just called Charley. The V is on the bbl flats not the table. He's going to send me pics of the flats and the tables to show all the stampings and I'll post them here.

[Richard Flanders]

Finally got a pic from Charlie of this G grade. Anyone have comments on the stampings? What's with the V between the lugs? And Kf... ?

[charlie cleveland]

for what its worth i think the gun would be in the 1500.00 range. nice gun but money is tight right now... charlie

[Gill Frye]

I agree with Charlie, once the benjamins come out..... $1500-1750.

[Bill Murphy]

A $40 letter would add more than $40 to the value of the gun.

[George Lander]

A nice G Grade with Damascus barrels just sold at RIA for $875 inc. buyer's premium, but I think $1,500 - $1,700 for this gun is about right. Like Bill said, spend 40 bucks on a letter. A letter increases the value by multiples IMO.

Best Regards, George

[Richard Flanders]

Why a letter? I can only assume to find out if the bbls are original? And to clarify again, I have no stake in this gun and no interest in buying it.

[Rich Anderson]

Richard a letter will clarify if the barrels were originally Damascuss and if the gun was ordered with a pinned stock. Why anyone would want a new gun with this done is beyond me unless it was considered to make the head stronger. Also the letter might give some information if it was indeed sent back and rebarreled with the fluid stell ones. The frame is marked as a G but the barrels are from a V. Lots of questions with no clear ansers.

Its a nice gun and if it were a 16 or better yet a 20 it would have come straight to Michigan! Love those straight stocked guns.

[Richard Flanders]

Thanks Rich. That's what I thought. If I were looking to buy it I would assume the pinned stock was not factory and I'd likely figure the bbls, which are numbered to the gun, were a later addition since they are from a V. I wasn't sure if that V meant that or not. I've not seen a pic of the S/N on the lug but will ask for one. Maybe the stamping style would indicate something. I told Charlie right off that if it were a smaller gauge it would have flown out the door to a PGCA buyer.

[Kurt Densmore]

The first VH to roll out of PB was SN88220 in 1898. So, this gun was not originally ordered with Vulcan Steel bbls. It had to of gone back to PB for a new set of fluid steel bbls. The Kf stamp on the barrel flats is the early stamp on Vulcan steel bbls. I had a 20ga VH with that stamp that was built in 1904. I do not know when the V with a circle around it was adopted. If somone knows this date then we can assume that the barrels were fitted sometime between 1898 and when the new stamp was adopted.

What a fantastic upland gun if in the 6 1/2lb range...and 28" bbls.

[Dean Romig]

We know that the K is the stamp of Charles A. King but does the "f" indicate "fluid steel" or "field grade" or somehow "Vulcan"? It has been my understanding that the "f" was a stamp of inspection. Look in a search engine like Google for "f" and you will find descriptions "comparison" or "averaging". I just did a quick scan of TPS and found no reference to a "f" stamping. Maybe someone can direct me to the page on which such reference is found.

[Dave Suponski]

I believe it was Kevin McCormack that suggested that the italisised F stood for a German word for "finished". Seem's to make perfect sense to me.Also we know that the first Vulcan guns were made in 1898 prior to the public release in 1899 and used the black Vulcan barrels.Altough there are a few documented Vulcan guns with composite barrels.

[Dean Romig]

Is it merely a coincidence that the Vulcan fluid pressed steel barrels came on the Parker scene only a year after the Titanic fluid pressed steel barrels? ...one more reason to raise the question "were all fluid pressed steel barrels actually made of the same steel within a given time period?"

I won't argue the point that the "f" represented "finished" but only wish to raise the point that it could also have been an "s" as in the Old English script where the "f" was used as the second "s" within a word, e.g., Esfex or Suffex or pasfed or sinuf as in sinuf headache...

[Richard Flanders]

Dean... are you certain all that lead didn't effect you somehow?? :p

[Dave Suponski]

No Rich,he's not certain at all...In fact he probably forgot the question...:rolleyes: I think it's all those lead laced loons...go ahead say that three times fast.....:biglaugh:

[Dean Romig]

HEY....

[Dave Suponski]

Hey what? You forgot huh?

[Austin W Hogan]

The Kf stamp has also been interpreted as "King fecit" translated to "King made it" when he was Parker's barrel contractor in addition to being superintendent. I think the meaning is really "OK - King" that is it was his final inspection mark.

With respect to barrel steel the archive shows 15 V3 and two V4 beginning at 82225. These are the first fluid steel that is not Whitworth.There are no V2 shown.

Parker made an average of two D grades a week and 10 V grades a day. A majority of the V's were 30 inch twelve ga guns. It would seem to me that Mr King would have tooled up a separate machine to make all those 30 in V's. This would be a good reason to use a free machining ie faster cutting steel for the V barrels; although not necessarily for all of them.

Best, Austin

[Dean Romig]

Austin, presuming V3 to indicate D grade with Vulcan Steel barrels and V4 to indicate C grade with Vulcan Steel barrels, the TI3 guns began with serial number 86736 in 1897 and the first Vulcan Steel barrels appear to have been made in 1895 as a Grade 3 hammerless gun rather than on a Grade 1 gun.

[Austin W Hogan]

When I looked this up I found 15 V3 beginning 82225 - and the first TI3 at 86736. Parker apparently bought some sample fluid steel barrels; tried them and then seriously went in the fluid steel barrel business about a year later. I don't know if the change V to TI was a change in supplier or change in trade mark.

Best Austin

[Bill Murphy]

Dean may want to review some of these posts for his recent research. To add to the "early Vulcan gun" research, a Grade 5 that I have inspected was an early Vulcan gun, according to the stock books and the visual inspection of the gun. I didn't buy it because it was priced in the stratosphere by a local dealer who is not known for negotiating. The serial number is in my files somewhere, but is also listed as a V5 in the Serialization Book. I just looked for it in the SB from the 82225 range to 85000. Maybe it was misread by the researhers as a V3 or V4. The gun itself was clearly a Grade 5 BH gun.