Impulse Buy

[Mark Ray]

Just bought this gun today...not in hand yet, bought partly because of a really nice case and accessories. A 16 bore with 30" bbls, and the gun is in nice condition...cocking indicators, cool engraving, etc. does anyone have a clue what it is?
Photos to follow next few posts.

[Mark Ray]

Just bought this gun today...not in hand yet, bought partly because of a really nice case and accessories. A 16 bore with 30" bbls, and the gun is in nice condition...cocking indicators, cool engraving, etc. does anyone have a clue what it is?
Photos to follow next few posts.

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/49952_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/49952_600x400/)

[Mark Ray]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/49952_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/49952_600x400/)

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/49953_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/49953_600x400/)

[Mark Ray]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/49954_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/49954_600x400/)

[Mark Ray]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/49955_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/49955_600x400/)

[Mark Ray]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/49956_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/49956_600x400/)

I Assume that it is a Suhl region gun from the proofs, prior to 1939... How do you tell who made it?

[Patrick Lien]

my guess would be Simpson.

Patrick

[Stephen Hodges]

my guess would be Simpson.

Patrick

I agree.

[edgarspencer]

Intercepting sears, a definite plus.

[CraigThompson]

I have a 16 30" that looks very similar . Mine was made by Kerner or Kettner can't remember which .

[Mark Ray]

Intercepting sears, a definite plus.

Edgar, can you tell that by the screw behind the fences? I only own one other guild gun, a hammer 16 re-done by Mark Larsen. This gun appears almost new, and proof marks indicate prior to wwII. Seller says the gun weighs 5lbs.13oz. If that is the case, it will be quite a "wispy wand"

[edgarspencer]

I have a 16 30" that looks very similar . Mine was made by Kerner or Kettner can't remember which .

Emil K or Eduard K, I think you're right

[Mike Franzen]

That case!!!

[Mark Ray]

Mike I Know!!!!! The seller repeats that the compartments are full of horn handles turnscrews, a horn striker pot, sterling silver three piece cleaning rod, and lots of jigs, brushes etc, plus a horn decocker. I was bidding in the gun 50% due to the case which I value close to $400, when I noticed that the gun was a 16, not the advertised 12. I informed the seller to confirm, and they said I was right, they had missed that, and was I still interested. I demurely indicated that that would be acceptable www the gun to be a 16. I would tell you all what I paid for the lot, but in the interest of decorum I will just allow speculation. Needless to say, I'm good with it!

[Jim Beilke]

I have a neighbor named Kettner.Claimed his relatives were high end gun builders. Would you check the name on your double. He would like to see one and possibly purchase one. Thanks, Jim

[Mark Ray]

I dont have the gun in hand yet....but.....my research is leading more and more to a Kettner gun. It appears to be very high end, and in exceptional condition. When i get it, and if it turns out to be a Kettner gun, i will then decide if it needs to live in my collection, be a hunting gun, or will it finance future Parkers! I will pm you if it is the latter.. Thank your friends so much for their interest.

[David Noble]

I'm not too sure about Kettner or Simpson. I'm leaning towards a guild gun based on the engraving and checkering. Perhaps a smith that had worked at one of the above. Very nice gun though.

[Mark Beasland]

1925 Suhl proofmark. At one time there were over 400 gun makers in the Suhl valley of Germany.

[Ed Blake]

Nice gun, but I really like the case.

[edgarspencer]

Edgar, can you tell that by the screw behind the fences?

Yes. This would not be out of the ordinary for Kettner, but not as likely if it was an unknown guild assembly.

[charlie cleveland]

nice gun for sure..what i like about these unknown gun buiders is that they made fabulous guns of top quality...and even folks like me can afford one of once in a while...charlie.....

[Mark Ray]

Thanks Charlie, I agree! the seller just transmitted the tracking number to me, so the stork is in the air! Will report on first hand impressions once in hand. I am really anxious to see what all is in the case compartments...the seller said they are "crammed with stuff"!

[Mike Franzen]

Post some good pics of the case. I might try and build one like that. Might be the coolest case I've ever seen.

[Mark Ray]

Couple of case pics

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/49962_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/49962_600x400/)

[Mark Ray]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/49964_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/49964_600x400/)

[John Mazza]

Why couldn't the seller snap another picture with the covers off of the compartments, thus showing you all of the stuff crammed in there ?

Doesn't matter now, but I would have hoped that he would have done so if asked.

Once, I had an annoying experience dealing with a well-known dealer who apparently didn't enjoy answering questions & taking a few more pictures of the guns he offered on his website. Hell, he is my "eyes & ears" - since I can't view the item in person. His rudeness and unprofessional attitude cost him almost $10K in potential sales.

What an ass...

[Mark Ray]

Why couldn't the seller snap another picture with the covers off of the compartments, thus showing you all of the stuff crammed in there ?

Doesn't matter now, but I would have hoped that he would have done so if asked.

Once, I had an annoying experience dealing with a well-known dealer who apparently didn't enjoy answering questions & taking a few more pictures of the guns he offered on his website. Hell, he is my "eyes & ears" - since I can't view the item in person. His rudeness and unprofessional attitude cost him almost $10K in potential sales.

What an ass...

Frankly John...in this case the seller was no real problem...I knew that doubles weren't his thing when I realized the gun he was selling was a 16 and not a 12 as advertised. As it was an auction...the last thing I wanted was for him to throw in some new information like all the stuff in the compartments .. and he actually though that the gun being a 16 would have detracted from its value! In fact asked if I was still interested when I pointed it out to him. The only reason I pointed it out to him at all was in the minute chance that the photos were of the wrong gun. I had to chuckle to myself when he generally described the items hidden from view as old fashioned screwdrivers, and old fashioned cleaning stuff, and little black jars with gun parts and the like.
Looking forward to the treasure hunt...with my luck it will be craftsman screwdrivers and 35mm film canisters!!

[John Mazza]

Understood.

Even if the screwdrivers are Craftsman, it looks like you got one helluva' nice gun & case !

Give us an update when she arrives.

[CraigThompson]

Why couldn't the seller snap another picture with the covers off of the compartments, thus showing you all of the stuff crammed in there ?

Doesn't matter now, but I would have hoped that he would have done so if asked.

Once, I had an annoying experience dealing with a well-known dealer who apparently didn't enjoy answering questions & taking a few more pictures of the guns he offered on his website. Hell, he is my "eyes & ears" - since I can't view the item in person. His rudeness and unprofessional attitude cost him almost $10K in potential sales.

What an ass...

While I understand your annoyance with the said dealer , you also need to see it from the sellers point of view . I sell on the internet quite a bit and you would be amazed at the number of idiotic questions people can ask even if what they ask is plainly stated in the auction . And pictures one could post 100+ pics of any gun and someone will want MORE .

[John Mazza]

I understand. But when it's my hard-earned money, I want to be able to satisfy myself that everything's OK with the gun.

When a dealer doesn't mention that it's been refinished & I can plainly see that, then I think he's either hiding the fact or is ignorant of the fact. Neither one is good...

I have had people say to me "I never said it was ..........." (Fill in the blank with whatever you want: "all original" " not refinished" "mechanically perfect", etc.) So, I will flat out ASK them these things. All they need to then do is say Yes or No. ...but I want an answer! Then, if they don't tell me the truth, they are then misrepresenting the item. If you don't ask, and/or if they don't say it in the description - it's not being misrepresented.

I don't ask idiotic questions - I ask the usual questions we all tend to ask.

I bought a drilling once that turned out to have issues: 1.) lots of pitting in bores 2.) right hammer did not hold at full cock, and a hairline crack in same hammer.

The guy's description said "very good" bores. WRONG ! He claims that he never noticed the cracked hammer. (Possible, but odd for a dealer to miss...) Worse yet, he claimed he never noticed that the hammer didn't hold at full cock. So, he bought a gun (to sell) and never even cocked the hammers ???????? I guess he never opened the gun either - maybe that's how he figured the bores were "very good."

I haven't dealt with either of these dealers since. One is too impatient/arrogant, and the other is blind & ignorant. (Again, these are bone fide dealers, not just guys posting things on Gunbroker.)

If a dealer is basically saying "Just trust me, everything's OK." Then I'm tempted to say "Fine, you trust me too. Send me the gun, and if you are telling the truth, I promise to mail you a check."

Trust me...

[Mark Ray]

We digress.
Just want to be clear that I had no issue with this seller.

[CraigThompson]

I understand. But when it's my hard-earned money, I want to be able to satisfy myself that everything's OK with the gun.

When a dealer doesn't mention that it's been refinished & I can plainly see that, then I think he's either hiding the fact or is ignorant of the fact. Neither one is good...

I have had people say to me "I never said it was ..........." (Fill in the blank with whatever you want: "all original" " not refinished" "mechanically perfect", etc.) So, I will flat out ASK them these things. All they need to then do is say Yes or No. ...but I want an answer! Then, if they don't tell me the truth, they are then misrepresenting the item. If you don't ask, and/or if they don't say it in the description - it's not being misrepresented.

I don't ask idiotic questions - I ask the usual questions we all tend to ask.

I bought a drilling once that turned out to have issues: 1.) lots of pitting in bores 2.) right hammer did not hold at full cock, and a hairline crack in same hammer.

The guy's description said "very good" bores. WRONG ! He claims that he never noticed the cracked hammer. (Possible, but odd for a dealer to miss...) Worse yet, he claimed he never noticed that the hammer didn't hold at full cock. So, he bought a gun (to sell) and never even cocked the hammers ???????? I guess he never opened the gun either - maybe that's how he figured the bores were "very good."

I haven't dealt with either of these dealers since. One is too impatient/arrogant, and the other is blind & ignorant. (Again, these are bone fide dealers, not just guys posting things on Gunbroker.)

If a dealer is basically saying "Just trust me, everything's OK." Then I'm tempted to say "Fine, you trust me too. Send me the gun, and if you are telling the truth, I promise to mail you a check."

Trust me...


What constitutes a "verified dealer" ? We have an FFL and a storefront but I suppose you're telling me we aren't bonafide !

I can relate to wanting to get the most bang for my buck and have no issue with that . However some of the things a good many people ask is blatantly stupid , they could have gotten the answer they desired if they just read the listing .

If a fellow asks me a bunch of questions I generally email them and tell them to call me and I'll go over the gun from one end to the other .

[John Mazza]

"What constitutes a "verified dealer" ? We have an FFL and a storefront but I suppose you're telling me we aren't bonafide !"

I don't know what you're trying to say... I'm saying that these two people, having websites, and dealing in selling guns for decades (the one guy - even before websites existed), are "gun dealers." This is their business ! So, by my definition, you ARE bonefide !

Now - moving on, I was trying to say that an auto mechanic who has his own shop & has had grease under his fingernails for 30 years is NOT going to buy a car with an obvious defect (and claim he didn't notice it). These guys notice things that us laymen would miss. But if you do this sort of work for years, you develop a keen knowledge & a "sixth sense" that, to a layperson, seems amazing.

Would you buy a Parker hammer gun & not cock the hammers ? No. If you did cock the hammers, would you notice if they didn't work properly ? Of course. Then, if they didn't work properly, would you note that in your description ? I would hope so.

I guess sellers have a different perspective than buyers...

[Mark Ray]

If you guys want to discuss dealers and selling practices, there are boards on the forum for that. This is a gun thread.

[John Mazza]

Just talkin'...

Didn't think simple banter would become such a controversy.

OK - that's all I have.

Back to guns - That looks like a great gun. Post more pictures when you get it.

Thanks.

[Mike Franzen]

I can't wait to see what's in that case. Are you even able to sleep at night?

[Mark Ray]

Pretty excited to see, but I have also begun reverse compensating mentally in case it's a bunch of junk! The bad part is that the gun will get here while I'm in Louisiana on a fishing trip, so I won't get to see it until next Friday!

[Mike Franzen]

No way that gun is a piece of junk but I do like the "Reverse Compensating Mentally" mentality. I'm going to use that if you don't mind. Not to stray to far but are you saltwater fishing?

[Mark Ray]

Well...got the gun in hand today. It is at least as good as pictured and described. On my scale, a svelte 5lbs 4 oz., the barrels do have a makers name. Aug. Wolf, Suhl. Don't know how the seller didn't see that! It is apparent that the gun has been shot only a very few times in its 90 year history. There is still varnish present on 100% of the action, and the primer ring impressions around the pins has not even worn through the varnish. Very thin, perfectly fitted, and very finely checkered horn butt plate. The triggers are gold plated, without any wear on the finger contact portion at all. the gun has a modest 2 1/4" DAH, with a 14 3/4" LOP to first trigger.

The case is amazing. I cannot yet get a handle on the age of it, although it appear fairly contemporary, the fact that the gun is virtually untouched, might be a clue to the case as well. And the case is inside a very heavy canvas cover with fleece lining...and the brass zipper on the cover is very heavy gauge, and old. I am not a carpenter, but will try to describe as I cannot get photos out til next week. the corners are not dovetailed, but are fine work and secured with dowels. the hinges and clasps are all heavy solid brass. the case fits the gun and accessories perfectly, including inletting for the rib extension, and inletting inside the cleaning rod box that PERFECTLY fits the heavy solid brass cleaning rod, with small jigs, and a de cocking tool in the handle of same. One compartment holds a sling that appears to have never been fitted to the gun, but the hooks also bear the engraving Aug. Wolf, so they are certainly original to the gun. there is a white silk cloth in one other box, a sterling silver oiler and a chamber brush in another. there are two sterling snap caps, with horn inserts, and a silver grease pot. there WERE two old screwdrivers in one box...that are not period with the gun and accessories...square pegs in round holes!

Thrilled with the gun and case....going to research this maker now.

thanks for the interest!

[Mark Ray]

Couldnt stand not to show at least a couple of "phone" phots of the case...note the timed corner brace screws, the gunsmith quality backer screws for the brass cover knobs timed also. The keychain for the case keys is a matching finished square of the same walnut as the compartment covers.

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50020_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50020_600x400/)

[Mark Ray]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50021_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50021_600x400/)

[Mark Ray]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50022_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50022_600x400/)

[Mark Ray]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50023_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50023_600x400/)

[Mike Franzen]

Mark you have hit the jackpot with this one. That's one of those guns and cases you could never get tired of looking at because you'll always find something you hadn't noticed before. The thing that I liked first time I saw it was the arrangement of the barrels and the butt stock. That's different and really appeals to me. Congratulations.

[John Mazza]

Absolutely gorgeous !

[Ben Rawls]

I did have a member of this forum tell me "It's inconvenient for me to make 2 trips to where the gun is. I'll ship it to you and If it's not what you want ship it back". Things like that do happen in the world to restore our faith in fellow man.
This is a great little German 16. Suhl was pretty clear but I would have said JP Sauer action. Whoever made it it's a peach.

[Dean Romig]

And so is that wonderful case!!

[Mark Ray]

Turns out it is an August Wolf -Suhl gun....from the research i have done so far....it as fairly apparent that he only signed his better or custom guns... It is really light...5 lbs 2-4 oz, the Krupp barrels are extremely finely struck, and the gun is VERY close to new. Thrilled with the gun and case....the thin horn butt plate is finely checkered, and this piece of horn has some nice browns and translucent parts.

[Mark Ray]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50128_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50128_600x400/)

[Mark Ray]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50129_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50129_600x400/)

[Mark Ray]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50130_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50130_600x400/)

[Mark Ray]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50131_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50131_600x400/)

[Mark Ray]

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50132_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50132_600x400/)