Parker D grade 10 gauge questions

[Dennis Martin]

Greetings All,
I've been a PGCA member for about 1 1/2 years, but this is my first post. I'm considering a Parker D grade 10 gauge made in 1889, but don't know how to compare a 10 gauge's value to comparable guns in smaller gauges. My Standard Catalog of Firearms states that only 45 10 gauge guns were manufactured in D grade, but I don't know this to be correct. My Blue Book of Gun Values lists no production numbers by gauge, but both show premiums for sub-12 gauge guns; not 10 gauge guns. I realize that smaller gauges are more desirable to the vast majority of shooters/collectors, but with a potential very low production of 10 gauges, can anyone tell me if they would carry a premium over a comparable 12 gauge? Can anyone confirm the production numbers? Any information will be greatly appreciated. I've made some costly mistakes in the past and would prefer not to take that well traveled path again.
Thanks,
Dennis

[Bill Murphy]

Those production numbers for ten gauge D Grades are bogus, if for Damascus barrel guns. The Parker Story, volume one, will give you the correct numbers. The ten gauge is not to be valued less than the 12, especially in fluid steel guns, where it is rare.

[greg conomos]

If it's made in 1889 and still has its original barrels it is Damascus most likely.

In Damascus guns, I'd always value a 10 less than a comparable 12, or certainly not more. In today's world a 12 is far more versatile and cheaper to use.

[Dennis Martin]

I was suspicious of those numbers and it does have Damascus barrels. Thanks for the quick responses.

[Brian Dudley]

I believe all the blue book numbers are based on Fluid steel production.

DH 10g numbers are low, but not that low.

The only way that value can be determined is based on a complete evaluation of the condition of the gun. Anything short of that is pure speculation.

[Dave Noreen]

First off, what are we discussing here? A D-Grade, a hammer gun? Or, a DH-Grade a hammerless gun?

According to the tables in The Parker Story there were 45 DH-/DHE-Grade hammerless 10-gauge guns made with Titanic Steel barrels. They are fairly rare and command a premium. There were 633 DH-/DHE-Grade hammerless 10-gauge guns made with Damascus barrels. There were 742 D-Grade top-action 10-gauge hammer guns made with Damascus barrels. Finally, there were 401 D-Grade lifter-action 10-gauge hammer guns made, 383 with Damascus barrels and 18 with Laminated barrels.

[Dean Romig]

Condition, condition, condition... that and if it has any special or unusual features like ejectors installed by the factory at a later date - barrels longer than 32" - fishtail lever. 3-frame 10's were the most common, so 2-frame or 4-frame and bigger would be unusual... straight grip or ball grip might be more desirable to some folks than the more common capped pistol grip. There are a lot of variables and some can add a bit of value, but condition would be the driving factor on a 10 bore's value.

[Mark Ouellette]

Hi Dennis,

Based on the information provided in your post I suggest the following:

1. Provide to your PGCA peers the serial number of the subject gun. One of us will then look it up in the Parker Gun Serialization and Identification Book or as we call it, "The Book". This is a $40 guide that ALL Parker collectors should buy. Amazon.com sells them.

2. A member will, from The Book, provide the original configuration of the gun, i.e. Hammerless, 10 ga, 32" Damascus Barrels, Capped Pistol Grip, any extras and so on. The Frame size is not listed. Oh, not all serial numbers are listed in The Book but maybe 80% are... Someone please correct me on the percentage!

3. Production numbers of each configuration of Parkers are listed in the 2-volumn Parker Story, a $300 investment. Blemished copies are available for less.

4. Detailed, clear photos will help members determine a very vague value range, i.e. $1500 to $3000. Value is determiend by condition, rarity, desirability, and present market values...

5. This is a link to a member's DH 10 which I've shot. It's a wonderful gun at more than a fair price of $3,500 shipped to you!:
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16273

Note: One has to be a PGCA member to have access to our For Sale forum (above link).

Here are the Photos in this website's albums:
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11306&highlight=kurt+densmore
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6688&highlight=kurt+densmore

I love big Parker 10 gauge guns. With a little practice one can master shooting them (long barrels swing like magic) and surprise your friends shooting their little 20 gauge guns on "in your face" clays on a tight course. The same Parker 10 will later smack the crap out of geese and ducks as far as a same man dares to shoot at them!

Mark

[CraigThompson]

In Damascus guns, I'd always value a 10 less than a comparable 12, or certainly not more. In today's world a 12 is far more versatile and cheaper to use.

I think it's safe to say that if a fellow collects and or shoots Parker's ammunition costs aren't generally a factor :bigbye: But then I reload for all of mine so what would I know !

[CraigThompson]

Condition, condition, condition... that and if it has any special or unusual features like ejectors installed by the factory at a later date - barrels longer than 32" - fishtail lever. 3-frame 10's were the most common, so 2-frame or 4-frame and bigger would be unusual... straight grip or ball grip might be more desirable to some folks than the more common capped pistol grip. There are a lot of variables and some can add a bit of value, but condition would be the driving factor on a 10 bore's value.

That's all good and true . HOWEVER , one needs to take into consideration the fact that these things obviously aren't made any longer and each year the number decreases from fire theft accidents etc . So the old adage of only buying say 90% or better guns can kinda be taken with a grain of salt now . If a person waited for guns of that league or better he would most likely wait long between new additions and or have extremely deep pockets .

[greg conomos]

"I think it's safe to say that if a fellow collects and or shoots Parker's ammunition costs aren't generally a factor But then I reload for all of mine so what would I know ! "

For the average guy who doesn't shoot enough to justify the many headaches of reloading, the value behind walking into any store that sells ammo and knowing there will be 12 ga shells is significant. That they will be the lowest priced of any ammo is also appealing. Plus, who carries 10 ga shells in #8 birdshot?

To value a 10 over a 12 you'd better be doing some serious waterfowling or perhaps turkey hunting. Just keep in mind the guy you try to sell it to in 15 years might not think the same.

I'm not going broke over ammo costs but, for example, when I take out my 8ga and I'm shooting custom loads by Tom Armbruster I'm a little stingy on how many I let myself or my friends go through...if for no reason other than the time and effort it takes to order them.

I'm not down on the 10ga but it takes a really special 10 to outsell a 12.

[William Davis]

I have to agree as much as I like my two 10s, they are not often admired by average shooters. Market selling is probably limited to knowlagable enthusiast. Who are going to be looking for condition.

William

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

I think the 10's are a hoot to shoot, and given two Parker's in identical condition, I would pay a premium for the 10 gauge. I may not use them as often as a 12,16 or 20 gauge but reloading for the 10 gauge is not all that difficult, and it's a great winter diversion from shoveling snow off the roof. Heck, if you roll crimp, and use the same gun, you don't even need a reloading press. I would agree that the short ten's sell to a limited number of shooters/collectors, but to those that enjoy them, value should go hand in hand with the numbers produced, and perhaps more importantly, the numbers that have survived in shootable condition.

[Craig Larter]

10's a big fun but not for everyone. They have become much more popular thanks to Sherman Bell/DGJ and RST 10ga 2 7/8" ammo.
Gun for gun and condition for condition I would say they do sell for a little less than 12's.
That being said if two Parkers were sitting on a dealers table priced the same and equal in condition and rarity, I would take the 10 every time. But my interests in collecting are skewed towards BIG GUNS form the golden age of waterfowl hunting.
As others have pointed out finding a high condition 10 is extremely difficult given that waterfowl seasons and limits were non existent during the hay day of the 10 gauge-----these guns were used spring and fall when waterfowl blacked the sky. That is the appeal to me of owning the used but not abused examples. They may not have high condition but tons of character and history. Good luck with the D 10.

[Pete Lester]

I have to agree as much as I like my two 10s, they are not often admired by average shooters. Market selling is probably limited to knowlagable enthusiast. Who are going to be looking for condition.

William

Who are going to be looking for condition AND FIT. If I see a high condition 10ga at a good price by any maker and it has 2" DAC by 3 1/2" DAH at the heel I am going to pass. Not only are the hammerless 10's far fewer in number they were all made in the period of lots of drop. These days a good condition unmessed with 10 with good dimensions stands on it's own merits and will command a price close to or equal to a similiar 12. The era of NH and EH GRADE guns in such condition languishing on the dealers rack at a bargain basement price are gone.

[William Davis]

Who are going to be looking for condition AND FIT. If I see a high condition 10ga at a good price by any maker and it has 2" DAC by 3 1/2" DAH at the heel I am going to pass. Not only are the hammerless 10's far fewer in number they were all made in the period of lots of drop. These days a good condition unmessed with 10 with good dimensions stands on it's own merits and will command a price close to or equal to a similiar 12. The era of NH and EH GRADE guns in such condition languishing on the dealers rack at a bargain basement price are gone.


Agree 100 %, reason I strayed from Parkers for a Hammerless short 10 is way the gun fit. Ithaca Super 10 I bought a few months ago has a much higher stock than my Hammer Parker 10 about 2 3/4 DAH. . It's probably 40 years newer which accounts for the more modern dim's

William

[Dennis Martin]

Gentlemen, I first of all want to apologize. For the first three responses, I received email notification, but not for subsequent replies. Therefore, I didn't check my post for a day or so. The gun is across country, so I've gathered info as best I can. It's a DH, s/n 57024, made in 1889 on a 2 frame. It has 30" damascus barrels that appear to be uncut(last 1/8" or so of rib smooth and proper keels). The biggest potential for a problem that I see, other than paying for it without my wife finding out, is that both barrels measure cylinder. That just doesn't sound right to me, but I guess it's possibly original. Once again, I appreciate any info any of you can share.

[Dave Noreen]

If that cylinder choke is being measured with a plug gauge, that is not an issue.
The bores of an 1889 vintage Parker Bros. 10-gauge are very likely to be much closer to .800" than .775". What are actual measurements with a bore micrometer?

[Rick Losey]

#57024 does show as 30" barrels in the book

[Dennis Martin]

The choke was measured with a flat Galazan gauge. This is probably the only measurement that I'll be able to get. So if I understand correctly, the choke is relative to the actual bore. If the bore is "oversize", the muzzle could measure larger than a more conventional muzzle and still have the constricting properties?

[Mark Ouellette]

Dennis,

It is common for a Parker of that era to have bores that by today's standards would be regarded as oversize.

Those plug gauges are worthless! Have the choke constrictions measured relative to the gun's bores.

A #2 Frame Parker ten is a sweat gun!

Mark

[CraigThompson]

If that cylinder choke is being measured with a plug gauge, that is not an issue.
The bores of an 1889 vintage Parker Bros. 10-gauge are very likely to be much closer to .800" than .775". What are actual measurements with a bore micrometer?

Well now my 1889 EH measures M/IM with a flat gauge . So going by what you say it should be tighter going by the nominal bore diameter ? Is that true also for my Grade 2 circa 1884 top lever 10 gauge , that one by the flat gauge is IC/M both guns have barrels that are uncut .

[Rick Losey]

measuring the bores and chokes is the only way to know for sure

as was stated before- choke is a factor of the amount of constriction in relation to the bore size on that gun, not the measurement of the muzzle alone

[Bill Murphy]

Dennis, to answer your question, yes, the gun is likely to have plenty of choke. An early ten with full choke barrels would measure about cylinder or improved cylinder with a flat gauge.

[Dennis Martin]

Thanks for the info that each of you has given me. I have the Parker book on order; didn't know it existed. It'll be a great resource. I've loaded some pics of the actual gun off the web and would like to get anyone's and everyone's thoughts on it. Realize pics aren't like in person, but the gun is across country. Price including shipping and transfer will be $3100.00. Don't know exactly why I'm interested, other than it's a good looking gun and not a lot were made. If it turns out to be full and full, I will take it duck hunting once or twice. Otherwise, just enjoy it.

[greg conomos]

That forend looks long to me.

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

Very nice looking 10 gauge. There will probably be some discussions regarding the originality of the wood, but I think it is an attractive gun, at a fair price. It would certainly be welcome in my home.

[Bill Murphy]

Yes, the forend is suspect. You may want to post some more pictures from different angles and closer up. You could do the same for the stock in the checkering area.

[wayne goerres]

Might want to have the gun lettered. There appears to be initials in the stock oval. You never no it may have been made for some one important.

[Daryl Corona]

Nice looking gun Dennis. If it is a 2 frame 10 you will just love how it handles. Enjoy it and don't look back.

[CraigThompson]

measuring the bores and chokes is the only way to know for sure

as was stated before- choke is a factor of the amount of constriction in relation to the bore size on that gun, not the measurement of the muzzle alone

I have a friend coming to the shop Thursday to bring his bore measuring device . Think I'll do all three of my Parker 10's , the Smith , the Ithaca NID and my W&C Scott .

[Dennis Martin]

Mark, thanks for mentioning the "Parker Gun Serialization and Identification Book". Received my copy today and have already put it to use. Lots of valuable info. I also want to thank all of you for the information and comments that you shared. Look forward to keeping a closer eye on the forums in the future.

[Dave Tatman]

I also purchased a copy of this book, based on comments made on this thread. Invaluable information for all Parker enthusiasts. Thanks for the feedback.

All the best,
Dave

[Brian Dudley]

Screaming piece of wood on that gun! The forend is not original or in any way correct. It is too long, blunt shaped and the checkering is not correct.
The stock is right as rain. I personally think that at that price point, the gun should have all original wood.