black powder shotshell reloading

[jim garrett]

This will be a new thread. I shot in the Heritage black powder event at the Southern this year and enjoyed doing so. That was my first time shooting black powder and I decided,...why not! I am in the process of buying black powder reloading supplies and I would like anyone's black powder reloading experience for shotshells. By the way, I was shooting an 1880's vintage Parker hammergun. Jim

[William Davis]

I load BP for my Parker Lifter. Got a head start from a friend of mine who shoots a lot of black powder, saved me some trouble with loads, here is a quick recap.

You can load plastic hulls but they burn out fast, Paper is better, fellow gave me a bushel basket full, old though, get some separations so watch them after each shot. Always a good idea to look through the barrels before loading a fresh shell

Regular primer, 209W for me

Bulk Black 2 F bought from a Re-enactors supply house works as good as more expensive pound cans

Loading on a PW 375 except don't use it to throw the powder charge, throw with a Lyman 55 in a empty shell then pour the powder in the hull with a funnel while the hull is in the loading die. Most 375 bushings and I assume Mec's are not large enough for black charges

Ballistic products sells wads for stacked loads. Nitro Card over the powder. Then a fiber wad to take up space. If you get 1/2 inch wads they can be split to make the stack height come out right. Less wad for larger powder and shot loads more wad for light. I am putting a thin overshot wad on the shot before fold crimping. Old Paper cases rough at the mouth are not crimping clean, without it get leaking shot.

If you roll crimp you need the O/S wad anyhow. Rolling is another thing. I roll some of my 10's so far don't need to with the 12. I may roll some spreader loads for it.

Load is taken from a old Parker ad for light loads that was posted here. 2 1/2 Drams 2 F 1 oz. 7 1/2 shot. Good target load, hunting I would bump up to 3 D 1 1/8 oz

One tip my buddy gave me that works well is keeping the barrels wiped. I use a small squirt bottle, car glove compartment eyeglass cleaner size. 50/50 Anti Freeze-Water. After a station, 4-6 shots a small squirt in each barrel. Then one push through each barrel with 1/4 piece of a paper blue shop towel. Towels and bottle fit in my shell bag.

I carry the gun station to station with a wood wiping rod that has a large ball handle dropped in the open breech. Drop it beside me on the ground. shoot wipe then back in the open gun. If you keep it wiped you can shoot all day.

Had it with me at the Spring Southern but rain keep my Sunday shooting short never took the lifter out of the case.

Good luck

William

[Fred Verry]

Jim, William gave you a really good and important piece of advice when he wrote "Always a good idea to look through the barrels before loading a fresh shell". I cannot emphasize how important that step is, particularly if you are shooting reloads using hulls of the older paper base wad design. Even though the target may be broken and the recoil and sound may be normal on a shot, the base wad may occasionally separate and be left in the bore. It can then form an obstruction on the next shot through that tube.

Thanks William. HTH Fred.

[William Davis]

Agree probably should have put more emphasis on it.

Without keeping count my guess is I have had 3 or 4 case head separations with paper hulls. One paper tube left in the barrel would probably cause it to burst or at a mimum bulge.

Look every shot !

William

[Forrest Grilley]

What gauge are you shooting? It is also important to find out what your actual bore size is. Many Parker shotguns pre (If I remember Austin Hogan's research correctly) about 1885, have larger than modern bore sizes. Many 12 gauge guns have bore sizes around .750, and 10 gauge guns have bores .790+.

The reason I point this out is that if you gun does have the larger bore size, it will perform better if you use thin walled brass hulls and card wads. For example if you use the thin walled Magtech brass 12 ga. hulls, you load 11 gauge (.754) card wads in them which will give you good compression and efficient powder consumption in the barrel. It can be difficult to load 11 gauge card wads in plastic or paper hulls, which were designed to use .729 wads.

If you have a 12 gauge, you are in luck because the Magtech brass hulls are cheap (about 1$ each) and last forever if you take care of them. If you have a 10 gauge, it is more expensive because the hulls available on the market are lathe turned, and not mass produced. Loading brass hulls will require getting some specialty tooling, like a hand wad press/de-capper, and wad tube, which luckily, are very easy to find on Ebay.

I think Ballistic Products produces a booklet on reloading black powder in brass hulls, if you are interested.

As already mentioned, many use modern hulls, and 12 gauge card wads and get good service out of them. Which is very fine for breaking clays or light game shooting. Another plus, is many people already have some of the components to get started if that is the route you take, i.e. hulls, press, 209 primers...etc.

[Paul Harm]

This is just my 2 cents worth, a little different than Williams. I have bags of Federal paper shells and more than enough plastic shells. The paper shells will get pin holes around the base - you have to look carefully. It doesn't matter to me which I use because they all get thrown after one shot. I haven't really noticed this problem with plastic, but then I don't remember checking them too close. The paper just look cooler than plastic when shooting smoke. So does a roll crimp if you want to take the time. I've used both a Mec single stage and a progressive presses to load BP. Been doing it for over 10 years without a problem even when using the press to drop the powder. I have two 46 bushings, one cut in half. They throw about 70grs and 84grs - or 2 1/2 and 3 drams. And I also use a bar with no bushing for around 95grs - when I want to make a lot of noise. If you use 3F the powder charge can be reduced. For skeet I use 70grs of 3F and 7/8 or 1oz of shot . The 84 or 95 is with 2F and 1 1/8oz of shot. Always use paper wads unless you want a really big mess to clean up - the plastic wads melt in the barrel - after a 100 or so shots it looks like spaghetti growing in the barrel - don't ask, I know. I never carry a cleaning rod, just one more thing to worry about, and it doesn't take all that long to clean at home [ although the squirt bottle sounds like a good idea ]. For clean up I use two one gallon buckets - hot soapy water and hot clean water. Put the barrels in the soapy water, pour some water down the barrels, and use a tornado brush 4 or 5 times up and down. Rinse the brush in the bucket and switch to some wet cotton cleaning patches on a jag to pull the water back and forth in the barrel. Then put the barrels in the clean water and use some new wet patches again to swab up and down in the barrels. Then I use a couple of dry patches, a couple with WD-40 and then one with Rem-oil. Takes about 10 minutes. Most shoots are a 100 to 150 birds in one day, so they get a bit dirty, and when shooting 5-stand, because it's so fast, the barrels get hot enough a glove is needed on the hand holding the barrels. Had to get one by station #3 - couldn't open and close the gun. Anyways, it's lots of fun shooting smoke a events. Oh, www.circlefly.com is where you can get fiber wads probably cheaper than anywhere else. You'll need a .125 nitro card, the 1/2" cushion wads, and a .028 OS card only if you roll crimp. Don't use thicker OS cards - with me it blew patterns if I went thicker. Have fun - Paul

[Paul Harm]

Forest could be correct about bore sizes, but it's not something to worry a whole lot about. I use 10/12 Gaugemates to shoot 12 ga shells in my 10 and haven't ever noticed a performance problem. Of course brass shells look way cooler than plastic when shooting the old SxS's. At one time I had a 100+ brass 12ga shells and set up a Mec 650 to reload them [ not crimp ]. Even had a friend make up the parts so I could prime the hulls on the press. Got tired of cleaning the brass, and not figuring out how to load nitro in them; I sold them all to a cowboy shooter. Oh, save your money on the BPI booklet - you'll learn all you need to know, and more, right here.

[Mike Koneski]

I'll load 2 1/2 dram of FFg Goex or 2 3/4 dram of FFg Goex under 1 oz of 7 1/2 or 8 shot. Nothing but paper hulls, felt wads and over shot card. I use a Lee Load-All just for these shells. I use a old dipper for the powder and everything else runs through the press. Use them in the BP events at the Southern shoots and they crush targets. I'll use the 2 3/4 dram loads once in a while for bird hunting when I'm feeling nostalgic too.

[jim garrett]

I sure am glad I posted the thread ( why do they call it a thread? ) requesting information on loading for bp shotshells. I have received some great information and I will be able to use most or all of it. I measured my bores tonight (on the shotgun) and Austin was right. My gun was made in 1882 and the bores measured rt .758 and lt .753 so it appears that I will be using brass shells to go with the 11 gauge wads. I am also going to use a teflon wrap around the shot as the barrels are a little rough. I have some ffg on the way so maybe I can give a progress report for anyone interested. I recognize some of the names and I am sure that I would recognize the faces as I have shot in the Challenge at the Southern for the last 3 years. Thanks guys, Jim Garrett

[Paul Harm]

The bores on my Parker hammer gun are .750 and it shots just fine with plastic or paper shells with fiber wads/BP or the plastic wads/nitro. You can use the brass shells but I think you're worrying a bit too much about bore size. JMHO - Paul

[Mike Koneski]

Good to hear you're tooling up for BP, Jim! I would try to avoid using plastic hulls and wads as the BP will burn very hot and the plastic will really gunk up your bores more so than just the BP residue. BTW, ROLL TIDE!!!

[Forrest Grilley]

+1 on how much fun you are going to have. You'll get a lot of pleasure shooting the exact components your gun was designed for.

[jim garrett]

Paul, we do sometimes in reloading seem to "major in minors" and I am going to try both paper and brass, but the real test will be the patterning board. I also need to check poi as the Parker stock has a lot of drop and I need to adjust for that. Thanks for the email. Jim Garrett

[William Davis]

Good exchange of ideas, I picked up a few new tricks.

Couple of points my side

Plastic of any kind does not mix well with Black Powder, However if I did not have paper hulls would use Plastic, and toss them after one loading. Plastic wad of any kind is going to cause trouble.

My 1876 Lifter was probably chambered for Brass shells. However Paper works fine. Brass is good but volume I load, 150+ at a time, enough for a full round of clays, cost is an issue. And you have to clean the brass hulls after firing, paper I toss. One of my Schuetzen Rifles in 32/40 I run on RMC turned brass cases and they work very well. Been using the same 20 cases since 1996. Reload them at the range while shooting. Brass is not a bad way to go. Whatever you use make sure the wads fit the case.

I am probably over cleaning = wiping while shooting. However long time with Muzzle Loaders, Schuetzen Rifles and Black Powder Cartridge Rifles clean bores are a critical issue, and topic hotly debated among competitors. Methods, lubes, powder brands etc. Thing about black powder is sometimes it will fowl other times shoot long strings without wiping. It's very dependent on the Ambient conditions. Hot dry day they need to be wiped, damp cool, less so. Shoot a few rounds it's not obvious, long strings best be prepared to wipe the bores. You could pattern, clean bore, then again after 40 - 50 rounds and probably prove something one way or the other, however I go with my rifle methods even if they may not be needed with the shot shell. Considering case separation with old paper cases you need to have a rod handy anyhow.

William

[jim garrett]

Mike, thanks for the Roll Tide. There seems to be fairly large number of Alabama fans in Pa as there are Penn State fans in Alabama. It all goes back to the WELL deserved mutual respect that Coach Bryant and Coach Paterno had for each other. Now on to lesser important things such as bp shooting and loading. The Heritage event at the Southern this year was the first time I have ever shot black powder and I thought they had thrown a parade for me after the first shot. I haven't seen that much confetti falling since the Macy's parade last Thanksgiving. I had to buy the shells at Deep River and I don't even know the brand but they must have used toilet paper for filler wads. I have been fully warned away from plastic wads , but I may use a teflon sleeve and check the barrels for residue from the sleeve. My barrels aren't that perfect on the inside (sorta like a Cambodian minefield) so it has been recommended that the teflon sleeve might alleviate the issues there. I am supposed to get my ffg tomorrow so I will load up and give reports to anyone interested. Jim Garrett

[William Davis]

Jim

My Lifters barrels are pretty rough inside too, however the wipe routine and a soap and water clean up with a good brushing is all it needs. I don't know that Teflon is bad with BP but don't know it's ok either.

Way I brush my rough barrels is wrap of 0000 Steel Wool around a bronze brush. Have a rod that's fitted for a power screwdriver. Rotate under power for a few seconds, cleans up nice.

William

[jim garrett]

William, another way to clean bores is to use a Chambermate brush made by Kleen Bore and I also put it on a cleaning rod powdered by a chordless drill with shooter choice on it and make a few passes down the barrels. I use a newer brush for the chambers and forcing cones and an older, more worn, brush for the barrels. After the scrub I then cut a blue shop paper towel in 4ths and wrap a 4th around a Tornado brush for a few passes. I shoot quite a bit of sporting clays and this is the cleaning process for my Perazzis. With the bore sizes of the 1880 Parkers you can probably use a new chamber brush with no problem. By the way, I don't use the drill with the paper towel, as it is just a straight push thru. In addition to the hot soapy water cleaning I will probably use a black powder solvent and Butches has always been good for centerfires. Jim

[Paul Harm]

Jim, you'll just have to learn to shoot " head up, " not out and down like modern shooters do. Keep your weight the same on both feet, not more on the front, and you'll naturally shoot a gun with more drop. Good luck - Paul

[jim garrett]

Paul, I have always shot heads up and I am always looking for pictures of me shooting to make sure that I am shooting that way. My sporting clays gun doesn't have much drop so I am fight down the barrel without lowering my head.I do not however like the new trend in sporting clays guns to have a high rib. The only time i will get down tight on a gun is when I am shooting my Model 32 trap gun (Remington that is). Jim

[jim garrett]

Mike, I noticed in the AHFCA newsletter that you might have a few "Foxes in the henhouse". When I first got into S x S guns I started with Foxes. At one time I had 7 or 8 pin models...don't ask me why, except that I liked them. I know this is the Parker site, but we need to have some organized Fox shooting activity at the Southern. Jim

[Paul Harm]

Jim, I've got Pat Liske's new CD on how he shoots. He has a high rib and a high monte carlo stock. In it he talks about the benefits of keeping your head up. The difference between our guns with a lot of drop and his is there's not the recoil problem with his. With a lot of drop, the muzzles want to come up and the stock hits you in the face - must be why I like 3/4 and 7/8 oz loads.

[William Davis]

Jim

That's exactly my routine 1/4 shop towel and all. While the Lifter has a rough bore shooing it with quality shot I don't think it's as hard to clean as my Modern Beretta O/U after a long session with cheap promo 12 G shells. I think soft shot leads more than high antimony and the lead is hard to get out. Super slick hard barrels show lead better too. It's really no chore to clean BP guns just different.

One thing you will want to do with Black Powder is clean, then come back next day and wipe the bores with some solvent or oil. Often the clean bores will show some rust day after cleaning, Does not take a lot of wiping but best not put it away for a long period without checking.

Other thing I have always done with my BP guns is wax the exterior, simple paste floor wax rubbed on and quick hand buff. My Minnie Ball Rifle with a new made barrel and no barrel finish at all is still bright inside and out after 30 + years, all that's been done to it is clean with hot soapy water, oil down, then next day wipe the bores 2nd time, finish by taking the oil off the outside and waxing

William

[jim garrett]

Paul, I have shot with Pat and no question. , he is one of the best. Most of the high rib shooters like to float the clay as they say that they can keep their eye on the bird. I have tried floating the bird but that method gives me problems on certain presentations. I took lessons from Wendell Cherry and he said the most important thing to remember is to "watch the rings" ie keep your eye on the clay. I have also found that to be the hardest thing to do. Jim

[Paul Harm]

I can't see the rings on a clay. Most the time I'm just happy to see the bird.

[jim garrett]

Paul, I said that was the hardest thing to do...sometimes I will go out to pick up the clay I just missed to see if I hit it all...then I can see the rings very clearly. Jim

[Preston Chaney]

Hi,
Do you use any compression of the powder as is done in BPCR shooting?
Regards
Preston C

[Paul Harm]

I'm not sure what BPCR shooting is, but yes I push the OP card down hard on the powder. I don't worry how hard - it could make more of a difference with rifle or pistol. Earlier someone was going to get Teflon - I would think it would be a waste of time and expense. I can't see any benefit. I've shot patched round ball and shotgun in the NMLRA since 1970 and the only ones who have used it were some slug gun shooters. No one shooting muzzle loading shotguns ever did.

[William Davis]

I shoot a lot of BPCS and have shot my Schuetzen rifle with Black Powder in certain matches. Compression is used by most competitors using a compression die before seating the bullet. Its a lot more compression than muzzleloaders.

Reason is it reduces fowling which is useful in matches, and some say improves consistency. It does increase pressure, not a problem in a rifle, most of us are using modern barrels able to stand much higher pressure than the Black Powder can produce. Not a good thing in a vintage shotgun

Shot shell I dump the charge in the case lightly press the over powder wad to settle the powder then shot/overshot/crimp. You need to press some, try dumping a charge, measure the depth then tap the side of the case with a brass rod. Powder dumped settles lot more than you would think when tapped. Compress lightly it settles it for you.

Boats

[Paul Harm]

I don't believe you can change performance a lot in the way a BP shotgun shell is loaded as far as compressing the BP a little or a lot. You're not trying to shoot a one hole group. You've got a 30" circle with lots of BBs. They may get there a bit faster, but not anything you'd notice. Equal amounts of shot and powder is all that's needed. You'll get a good pattern with decent velocity. Don't try to make it harder than needed.

[William Davis]

Exactly,

William

[Eldon Goddard]

Made my fist attempt at reloading today. Short 10 with 4 1/4 drams FFG Goex and 1 1/4 oz of 7.5. I had some observations that I would like an opinion on.
The over powder nitro card wad (.125") was rather tight going in. I could push it in with my wad pusher but had to apply more force than with the cushion wad or top card. Is this normal?
My other question is how much roll crimp is acceptable. Measuring the space before roll crimp I had around .330 to .370" inches depending on the shell. Is this to much space to roll crimp?
In comparing my finished shells OAL to some factory remington loads they were about .100" shorter.

[Paul Harm]

You want the nitro card a tight fit and yes it will be harder to push in because it's hard unlike the cushion wad. The OS wad is just finger tight. If you don't want as much roll over with the crimp, add a bit more cushion wad by slitting them to get the correct height. With my old measure, it shows a 1 1/4oz oz shot and 3dr load [ equal amounts of shot and powder by volume ]. Your 4 1/4 dr would be a 1 7/8oz load. Where you just trying to get the correct height by adding more powder ? It's cheaper [ and less recoil ] to change the height of the cushion wad. My roll crimps vary from .060 to maybe .240 - haven't measured one in quite awhile. I use a Mec Jr to reload BP and the nitro card is pushed in hard over the powder, then the cushion wad, then shot. If the shot isn't with in 3/8 of a inch from the top I dump it in a empty shell, add a bit cushion . From then on you'll know what's needed. Hope I've helped you some .

[Eldon Goddard]

Paul thanks for the reply. It was my understanding that 4 1/4 drams and 1 1/4 oz was the classic 10 ga load. That was the only reason I chose it. Planing to load for my 8 ga next with 5 1/2 drams and 1 1/2 oz. Will add more cushion wad next time. Thanks

[Victor Wasylyna]

I plan to load black powder in 16 gauge (once fired with nitro) plastic hulls using 1 oz of lead shot and 2 3/4 drams of powder. I have a few questions:

1. Can I use standard (e.g., Chedditte) 209 primers? Or should I use magnum 209 primers for proper ignition?

2. Do I use 16 gauge cards and wads? Or do I need 17 gauge cards and wads?

3. Per my calculation, 75.2 grains of powder gets me 2 3/4 drams. Does it matter whether I use Fg or FFg or FFFg? I use 75.2 grains of either powder, even though they have different densities?

4. How are you measuring out your powder? Each charge on the scale? Or is there a way to meter? Using a dipper for powder seems very imprecise.

-Victor

[Matt Buckley]

Victor,
You should be just fine with regular Cheddite 209 primers. They will ignite without any problems and when you go to magnum primers you are raising the pressure which I am assuming is what you are trying to avoid with using bp loads. 16 gauge cards and wads are what you want in a 16 plastic hull. If you were using brass hulls then you would probably go up to 17. I generally use FFg in 12 and 16. FFFg may raise the pressure some. I just use an old bp/shot dipper for measuring. If you want to get more precise than that weight it out on a scale, but the dipper is close enough for me.

[Mike Koneski]

I use an old dipper for BP and shot. The little bit of imperfection in the BP charge won’t matter. It’s not like an extra 2-3 grains + or - of smokeless. I use fiber and card and paper hulls. Plastic wads and hulls make for a messy barrel. I use FFg buy in a pinch I’d use FFFG or Fg.

[Arthur Shaffer]

Just a comment. The 16 wads are correct for the plastic hulls. If you load brass, you do go "up" in wads, but up is a 15ga, not 17. The Parker stamped brass cases generally load better by going up one size. I haven't loaded any in a little while, but the manufacturer recommendation and that of suppliers is to use 14 ga for OP and Cushion and 13 gauge for the overshotwhen loading MagTech. I have tried them and they give perfect loads. Glue in the overshot.

[Victor Wasylyna]

I like the dipper idea. Now you have me thinking I should save the $300 (and storage space) I would spend on a 16 ga MEC, and just get a dowel rod to push/seat the wads/cards and a roll crimper to finish.

I guess the issue with this idea is that all my 16 ga hulls are already 2.5 inch, so cutting off the existing fold crimp portion will not leave me with much length to work with.

-Victor

[Victor Wasylyna]

16 gauge cards and wads are what you want in a 16 plastic hull.

Just a comment. The 16 wads are correct for the plastic hulls.

Very convenient ... and efficient!

I already use 16 ga wads (and sometimes cards) for my “short ten” reloading.

It may not take much to get into black powder reloading for the 16 gauge.

-Victor

[Milton C Starr]

While im not loading bp I am using fiber wads, I did forget to order some nitro cards though. However stacking 2 overshot cards in its place seems to work somewhat I still need to get some nitro cards. I really like how adjustable fiber wads are because just as a example 1oz of one shot size is going to be a different column height compared to another shot size and material like lead vs bismuth. Normally I use two 1/2" fiber wads with my larger shot but with smaller shot I can use two and a 1/4" one in the 10 gauge 2 7/8". I have rolled crimp with 1/2" of hull material and 1/4" not sure what difference it makes my RST loads are only rolled with .17" of hull material all seem to work just fine.

[Arthur Shaffer]

I like the dipper idea. Now you have me thinking I should save the $300 (and storage space) I would spend on a 16 ga MEC, and just get a dowel rod to push/seat the wads/cards and a roll crimper to finish.

I guess the issue with this idea is that all my 16 ga hulls are already 2.5 inch, so cutting off the existing fold crimp portion will not leave me with much length to work with.

-Victor

Actually when doing your own, I have found that without shotcups, you don't need much for light loads. I load a light load Red Dot load and cut the older shells down to 2" in 10 gauge. They fit fine with a short cushion wad and a short roll crimp. Easier to carry too.