Fox/Parker Challenge Rules for 2015

[Dave Suponski]

Gent's as promised and agreed to by both organizations. As Toolman likes to spout"Let the games begin"


2015 Fox vs. Parker Challenge Rules


1) Competition is open to members in good standing of the AHFCA or PGCA as of March 1st, 2015. Updated rosters will be on hand to verify current membership status. Dual members of AHFCA and PGCA must choose ONE Association to represent at time of registration. Anyone attempting to shoot for both Associations will be disqualified.

2) Shooters must use a shotgun promoted by the organization they choose to represent. Those shooting A.H. Fox guns and representing the AHFCA are limited to Fox guns manufactured in Philadelphia, PA, Utica, NY and New Britain, CT (CSMC Fox models). Those shooting Parker Bros. or Parker guns and representing the PGCA are limited to Parker guns manufactured in Meriden, CT, Ilion, NY and genuine, Parker Reproductions.

3) All those who wish to compete in the 2015 Fox/Parker Challenge must first shoot the 10-12-16 gauge course at Haussmann’s. This course will serve as the “Qualification Round.”

All shooters must first pay and acquire their score cards from the registration office located in the Hausmann’s garage. You’re simply signing up to shoot the 12 ga course, period. No need to mention the FPC. Before you shoot, bring your scorecard to the Fox tables (located out by the Bo-Whoop stand). Here is where a Fox or Parker official will register you for the FPC. Immediately after shooting, return your score card to the Fox tables for recording. After tabulating, it will be returned to the registration desk at Hausmann’s.

Any gun may be used (10 GA thru .410). The gunner will specify the maker and gauge when signing up at the AHFCA tables. You may shoot more than one qualification round (utilizing the same maker’s gun) with a separate signup and fee due each time.

4) Qualification round(s) may be shot all day on Thursday June 4th and up until 2p.m on Friday June 5th. Completed scorecards must be back into the AHFCA tables no later than 2 p.m. on Friday, NO EXCEPTIONS. A blackboard in place there will rank the lead qualifiers and will be updated as scores are tallied throughout the day.

5) The Top-5, high-scoring Fox and Parker shooters will be selected for the respective Challenge Teams.

[Dave Suponski]

Page 2


) The Fox–Parker Challenge round will be conducted on Hidden Hollow’s “Crazy Quail” field at 3 p.m. sharp on Friday, June 5th. A flip of the coin will decide the first team to shoot. “Crazy Quail” is a type of “flurry” however the timing between target releases will be lengthened slightly, to enhance target acquisition.

7) A total of 125 targets will be thrown for each team of 5 gunners. High cumulative score will decide the 2015 winning team. The cumulative score for each team will be calculated as follows: The sum of scores recorded by the Hidden Hollow scorer + the official Parker scorer + the official Fox scorer. That sum will be divided by three (3) and rounded to the second decimal place. (Each scorer will use a hand operated mechanical counter.)

8) In the event of a trap malfunction during a team’s attempt at the Challenge targets, the Hidden Hollow official will void that team’s score and a new round of 125 targets will be shot.

9) The wearing of Eye and Ear protection is required of all competitors.

10) All Hidden Hollow/NSCA rules will apply for ammunition and maximum allowed shot size.

11) All shooters who qualify for the Challenge Team will receive an official Fox/Parker
Hat to commemorate this epic contest.

11. All shooters must have fun, be safe and conduct themselves in a sportsmanlike manner becoming of these two, fine organizations!

[Dave Suponski]

John, If possible could you make this thread "Sticky"?

[George M. Purtill]

I don't like the self scoring of the qualification round and I have heard others complain. Can't we at least have Fox and PG shooters be required shoot together and to score each others cards?

[Frank Srebro]

Just my opinion here. I too don't like the self scoring for qualifications but realistically most of the shooters go for multiple rounds on the HH courses over the qualification days, and the logistics of getting a mix of Fox and Parker shooters on each squad for every round would be imposing. IMO the bottom line is that each organization wants its very best shooters to compete in the F-P Challenge and thus I think it's best left to the organizations to ask members not to do things like "seeing chips" where there are none, or calling for a re-do bird when it's missed because "it was off the flight path", etc etc. :crying: In the latter example the best rule is: if you shot it you bought it.

So, what would you all think of a shooter who shoots lights out on the self scoring qualification round, but he bombs out when up for the real Challenge? Yeah right!

[Mark Ouellette]

Gentleman,

The qualification rounds are self scoring but the actual Fox - Parker challenge is watched by a hundred spectators and each team.

What good would it be to cheat one's way onto a challenge team then to contribute little to the team score?

An example is me last year. I shot a rather good round if clays with 14 pound DH 8 gauge. My score was 38 and high of 10 or more Parker and Fox guys and gals on the squad. Team Parker asked me to shoot for them in competition that afternoon. I declined because of three reasons.
1. I had bought only 8 and 10 gauges guns and did not think that a 10 gauge would be legal since Fox never made a gun in that gauge.
2. An 8 gauge is a cannon! The square of a gun's bore is a factor in total air pressure generated by each shot. I was exhausted after shooting my little cannon.
3. Although I had shot the high score of the squad I had done so with a light 8 gauge load, 1 & 3/4 ounces of shot! My integrity would not allow me to claim a position on the Parker squad.

In the end Debbie F. got to shoot and she loved it! I was pleased that she could experience competition by representing team Parker.

In the end it is the shooters abilities much more than the guns. I own both Parkers and Fox guns and love them all.

Mark

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Dave, I have never shot Crazy Quail-- because of the timing, are ejector guns a better choice, or are extractors fine. This may be a moot point as I would probably have a slim chance on making the team--although I did tie the 20 ga winner last year on Sun. when I was just shooting a practice round with Edgar and Allan, using my old VHE 20. I will give it a try.

[George M. Purtill]

Just my opinion here. I too don't like the self scoring for qualifications,.... IMO the bottom line is that each organization wants the very best shooters to compete in the F-P Challenge...... what would you all think of a shooter who shoots lights out on the self scoring qualification round, but he bombs out when up for the real Challenge? Yeah right!

Good points all Frank
I have never really shot in the FP challenge because I couldn't spend enough time there. I'm not that good either unless I am shooting my 10 gauge crusher and that's not Fox equivalent. But I heard the complaints two years ago and I heard them down at the Southern. I did like the way the LCS/PG challenge was done- official scoring and then they shot for trophy at the same game- 5 stand.
I don't think that shooting sporting clays for qualification is consistent with shooting flurry for trophy. Its apples to tomatoes. But maybe there is no other way to do it.

[Daryl Corona]

I agree with what Geo. and Frank had to say. Cheaters will cheat no matter how closely they are monitored. Case in point- A few years back at Ernie's I was shooting with a well know shooter whom I won't mention by name, but, he's always in the running for the Bo-Whoop. As we progressed through the course we got behind another well known shooter who consistently is in the top 2 of any gauge he shoots. My partner noticed that he was constantly changing choke tubes and seeing "pieces" which no one else saw. He was warned by my partner but, a few stations later he was seen doing the same thing. Ernie was notified and that was all it took.

Bottom line- it's the indian not the arrow. If Mark is man enough to shoot his 14lb. 8ga. then have at it. I'm there to have fun. If I shoot well so be it. I am not concerned about any of the people I shoot with or who are members of our fine organizations cheating.

[Chris Travinski]

Last year we were behind a group of guys who were reusing their score cards so they could shoot again for free. Unfortunately in any group activity, competition or not, there are always people who aren't happy just having fun. In the long run one or a few peoples ill gotten gain often ruins it for the group as a whole. Fortunately, they weren't competitors.

[John Truitt]

I will not weigh in on the controversy.

But to answer Mr Harold Pickens question. Yes ejectors would help.
I have shot crazy quail many times previously. Depending upon the timing setting it can be a very/ very fast game and ejectors will most certainly help.

I believe I read someone said it would be slowed down between clay releases this year which IMO will help make it less "crazy" and allow the teams to develop a strategy and plan and execute on each bird. I have never been to HH so I am not speaking with fact or experience for that event just my experiences in the past shooting crazy quail at other events.

[Pete Lester]

Gentleman,


An example is me last year. I shot a rather good round if clays with 14 pound DH 8 gauge. My score was 38 and high of 10 or more Parker and Fox guys and gals on the squad. Team Parker asked me to shoot for them in competition that afternoon. I declined because of three reasons.
1. I had bought only 8 and 10 gauges guns and did not think that a 10 gauge would be legal since Fox never made a gun in that gauge.
2. An 8 gauge is a cannon! The square of a gun's bore is a factor in total air pressure generated by each shot. I was exhausted after shooting my little cannon.
3. Although I had shot the high score of the squad I had done so with a light 8 gauge load, 1 & 3/4 ounces of shot! My integrity would not allow me to claim a position on the Parker squad.

Mark

Just because A.H. Fox company provided their customers with such a limited variety of shotgun guages should not disqualify your big Parker's Mark. Fox Collectors should have to live with those poor marketing decisions of yester year :rotf:

Seriously I doubt many folks would think trying to swing a gun that heavy and long would be an advantage on clays. You did really well with that beast last year.

[Dave Suponski]

Gents, Thank you for your thoughts and suggestions. Steve and I have worked pretty hard on trying to cover all the bases. And we will continue to tweek this event as we go forward. Let me address a few of your concerns... As far a scoring goes I agree with Frank that having mixed squads would be a logistical nightmare. As Daryl says those that cheat will always cheat. Trust me that behavior will show up on the Crazy Quail! The only losers will be the squad you are shooting for. As far as ejectors go....no problem. And if Mark wants to shoot his 8. Good for him. Lest us not forget this an amature event being shot by gentlemen who love these old guns. See ya all at Ernie,s ....

[Dave Suponski]

Oh ya .....almost forgot.... The PGCA and the Fox Collectors will be sharing a tent together at the Bo Whoop this year it. So come on down!

[Daryl Corona]

Just a little clarification on rule #1.

Being a member of both fine organizations would it be kosher for me to sign up let's say Thurs. AM, to shoot a Parker, then in the PM sign up to shoot a Fox and then take the best score and turn it in then decide which team to shoot for?

That is if either one of the scores qualifies.

[scott kittredge]

Oh ya .....almost forgot.... The PGCA and the Fox Collectors will be sharing a tent together at the Bo Whoop this year it. So come on down!

is this the "keep them closer" thing? :whistle:

[Rich Anderson]

Daryl I believe you have to state which organization your shooting for before hand. I don't think you can choose the best of the two. Nice try though:rotf:

[Steve Cambria]

Gents,

Allow me to make a few comments, that will hopefully allay some of your fears/concerns:

1) Regarding mixed squads. You're preaching to The Vienna Boys Choir on that subject. We kicked it around ad infinitum but the logistics were prohibitive. HOWEVER, now that we'll be one dysfunctional "family" under the Ringling Bros big top, perhaps that could be accomplished? All competitors have to pass by the Bo-Whoop/Fox/Parker tent on their way to the stands, so it might be easier to acquire a stray Fox or Parker shooter in an effort to keep the squads "honest." Time will tell on that front.

2) Mark: the rules clearly state all gauges allowed (10b ---.410) True, Fox never produced any, but we knew that many did leave from Cherry St. so we allowed them. Fire at will.

3) Harold/John: Dave and I have tried to customize the "crazy quail" to replicate more of a 5-Stand set-up, compared to the insanity of a flurry. Extractors are fine, as you'll never shoot more than a pair of birds at one time. We work with the trapper to slow down the interval between releases. Think of these as report pairs on Red Bull.

4) Daryl: While our two organizations are rife with, dare I say, "switch-hitters," to maximize team spirit we must insist that all shooters choose one team and stick with it throughout the competition. Obviously you can shoot multiple rounds with different guns but they must be from the same maker. Decisions---Decisions!

5) Finally, let me say this. We hear your concerns loud and clear. Though we can't please all the shooters all the time, we try damn hard to please most of the shooters most of the time. Have faith in your Parker/Fox congressmen and know they are working diligently to ensure that this contest will someday very soon, reach the true potential its founders envisioned from the starting gate. Trust me when I tell you: Two years from now, you ain't gonna recognize this place! :corn:

[Daryl Corona]

:whistle:

[Mike.Smith]

To further clarify on the Crazy Quail, I shot the challenge last year under this format. Like John said, the typical Crazy Quail setup is quite fast, and hard to shoot with a sxs whether you have ejectors or not. I shot it at Backwoods one year and I don't think I've ever heated up a set of barrels like that before. At the FPC last year they slowed this down to where you were shooting a report pair with the first bird going on your call. I do recall the trapper saying he may speed them up a tad, but never quite a true pair. What made this interesting is that the four machines are constantly spinning on the base, so every pair called for is different. I personally liked this because it gave no advantage to the team going second, not allowing them to watch the presentations and deciding how to shoot before they hit the line. I had a great time shooting this event and look forward to it this year. Harold, if you can score enough on the clays course to make the team I think you'd be deadly in this competition. It's more instinctive shooting than anything.

I'm also looking forward to having both organizations in one tent this year, it should be a lot of fun.

Mike

[Mark Ouellette]

Just a little clarification on rule #1.

Being a member of both fine organizations would it be kosher for me to sign up let's say Thurs. AM, to shoot a Parker, then in the PM sign up to shoot a Fox and then take the best score and turn it in then decide which team to shoot for?

That is if either one of the scores qualifies.

Daryl,

I think that is excellent way to support both of these fine collector's organizations!

Mark

[Frank Srebro]

The Fox Phila office asks if the campers at the NE SxS will do a retake of this print? :)


http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/silvers897/Fox%20Cat_zpslunt9hqd.jpg (http://s1044.photobucket.com/user/silvers897/media/Fox%20Cat_zpslunt9hqd.jpg.html)

[Frank Cronin]

To further clarify on the Crazy Quail, I shot the challenge last year under this format. Like John said, the typical Crazy Quail setup is quite fast, and hard to shoot with a sxs whether you have ejectors or not. I shot it at Backwoods one year and I don't think I've ever heated up a set of barrels like that before. Mike

Mike is right on. I shot this last year and my barrels got so burning hot. With a splinter forend I couldn't even handle the gun. I don't usually shoot with a glove but Suponski let me borrow his.

Shooting this event requires a glove or a gun with a beavertail.

[Chuck Bishop]

That's the first rational post by Tool Man in a long time:rolleyes:

[scott kittredge]

what choke combo would work best for the Parker, Fox shoot ?

[Dean Romig]

For the final event with the Crazy Quail I would use Lt.MOD/Lt.FULL

[Steve Cambria]

Scott: "Wishful Thinking & Hail Mary" would be my choice!!!

Your Eminence: Indeed, perhaps the one and only......