Denser patterns

[wayne goerres]

I would like to pose a question to the group. My question pertains to Parker hammer guns made with 2 7/8" chambers made in and around 1870s. This concerns pattern density at 40 to 50 yards. Will shells loaded with over powder and cushion wads shoot denser patterns than shells loaded with shot cups. I seem to be having problems with holes in the center of the pattern using Rem SP shot cups. Has anybody done any experimenting to see if one works better than the other.

[Dave Suponski]

Try slowing the loads down a bit. Less powder.

[Jerry Harlow]

Wayne,

No, they won't shoot denser patterns. What choke and shot size and how much shot?

Forty to fifty yards is stretching any amount of shot in a short ten. Even if you are shooting 1.5 ounces, forty is the ethical maximum range of this gun. If you are using the low pressure data for the ten, the speeds are no where near a modern high power shell (1300 fps). Shoot at a very large sheet of paper and you may see the shot has dropped from point of aim at these distances.

If you are shooting full chokes, use plated shot (copper), unsplit shot cups, and buffer. There are several loads on the short ten data that use wraps instead of SP10. These may work better also. Just my two cents. Others may disagree.

[scott kittredge]

Try slowing the loads down a bit. Less powder.

what Dave said. i can't believe i just said :whistle:

[wayne goerres]

I was using one of Charlie's favorite loads. 1/8oz no fours 19grs Red Dot in a Remington hull cut down to 2 7/8" with a Rem SP 10 wad and a Win 209 primer. I am not sure about the chokes on the gun. I don't have anything to measure them with properly. Still pretty limited on what you can get your hands on to load with in this area. Would 7625 be a better choice for hunting loads than Red Dot.

[scott kittredge]

are you putting the filler wad in the bottom of your SP 10 wad? if not that will open up your pattern.

[William Davis]

No 4 is pretty big shot. If you are getting holes in the pattern might try 6 or if committed to 4 move up to 1 1/4.

William

[Pete Lester]

Forty to fifty yards is stretching any amount of shot in a short ten.

Your joking right?????

[wayne goerres]

I use a over powder card in the bottom of the shot cup to bring the shot level even with the top of the shot cup and then a over shot card and roll crimp. I have also tryed a 6 point crimp.

[scott kittredge]

try a shot at 40 yds at a 30 circle. count the hits and divide that by the number of pellets in the load. my be you have a gun shooting cylinder choke (45 %). if so that would tell you why you have holes in your pattern. at forty yds you should get 70 % to 90 % on a .030 to .040 of choke out of the short 10 ga.

[Jerry Harlow]

Your joking right?????

Pete,

I'm talking about crippling. We've all killed stuff at great distances, but fifty on large game birds is chancing it. The NWTF reccomends 40 yards as the maximum ethical distance to take turkeys. Now crows I'd go sixty plus in the short ten.

An expert shot may kill every time at flying game at fifty yards with one and an eighth ounces of number 4s, but I can't and don't like to cripple. I've got no 10 Parkers with what I consider an extra full choke. Most around .035. I took a 3.5 inch Spanish ten double out Saturday with .045 in the left barrel. It shoots an ounce more shot than the average short ten load. How far is that good for? Fifty? Sixty? Off a bench yes.

I'll stick with my opinion of forty and less is the ideal distance on game animals with a short ten full choke. When one tries to shoot at forty, one ends up shooting much farther every time. It's only natural to misjudge distances in the excitement of hunting.

[Frank Srebro]

Here's my opinion; the short 10's such as an Ithaca Super 10 made for high velocity loads with 1-5/8 ounce of lead shot will absolutely flatten a large turkey or predator such as a fox at 60 yards = my personal max based on actual patterning. That's with heavy choking at 45 points or even a touch more and using hard lead 4's (max for turkeys here in PA) or with 2's for foxes and BB's for coyotes. Same for waterfowl using real NICE shot (not bismuth) or with Kent TM that's been mined from Kent factory shells. Sure everyone wants as close a humane shot as possible but if a bird is wounded that second shot is taken at whatever the range happens to be. Now I'm not talking here about light short 10 loads with 1-1/8 or even 1-1/4 ounce of lead, or worse yet, with bismuth for waterfowl. Funny, just yesterday there was a discussion over breakfast on the way to our sporting club, about the merits of the modern practice of shooting fine shot at turkeys and going for the head. The concensus by several long time hunters is, that works well when the bird is called in relatively close, but also that the old timers knew what they were doing by shooting 2's as generally recommended by the period ammo companies for the large birds. Again, 4's are the max allowed for turkeys nowadays here in PA. Our spring season opened on Saturday and two of the buds were showing off cell pics of good gobblers taken the day before with 3-inch 12's and regular 4-shot. Not some modern fad turkey load with a cool sounding name. At least some of the guys are keeping the faith ..... :)

[Jerry Harlow]

Frank,

I don't disagree with a thing you say. I passed on a Super Ten Ithaca last year, and it was a big mistake. Then I saw those brand new old stock Remington high power shells in 1 5/8 at the Southern, and wished I had the gun. What a killer!

But when we are loading the short ten with just 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 for low pressure damascus/twist (which will equal slower speeds, unlike those Remingtons at 1300 fps), my opinion to Wayne is it would be unethical to try to stretch it to 40 and 50 yards. I have not seen a lifter 10 choked at .045 as I said, mostly what I have seen is in the .035 range which will require patterning to find out what it will really do. I say 40 max to be ethical. After that its 50/50 if you can go pick him up. You'll get some, you'll lose some.

I also agree on the 2s for turkeys (long before the days of shooting for the head only where body shots would put them down) and that dead horse is smelly from last year's discussion. The old timers then shot for the base of the neck, putting number 2 shot in the neck, head, and body, or at the whole turkey on the wing. That's why the shell manufacturers put that in the listing of what size to use for different animals.

[Jerry Harlow]

I was using one of Charlie's favorite loads. 1/8oz no fours 19grs Red Dot in a Remington hull cut down to 2 7/8" with a Rem SP 10 wad and a Win 209 primer. I am not sure about the chokes on the gun. I don't have anything to measure them with properly. Still pretty limited on what you can get your hands on to load with in this area. Would 7625 be a better choice for hunting loads than Red Dot.

Wayne,

Maybe you don't have Pete's data? Go to the about the 9th reply and print the .pdf. Thanks for the spreadsheet Pete.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11403&highlight=short+load+data

[wayne goerres]

I do have Pete's data and it is good data I just have a lack of loading components in Ga. And for the record I wouldn't wast the shell to shoot at a Turkey at fifty yards. thirty is about max with the 4s and 5s I have on hand. My problem is that I have tried these same loads in several of my 10s (and I have many 10s) and I am getting the same results. I am more inclined to think it is something I am doing during the reloading process. I would love to try some paper hulls just for comparison. Unfortunately I have no hulls to try.

[William Davis]

I like the 1 1/8 oz short 10 loads for Clay targets. Game it needs more shot. Go light with larger shot not many pellets in the load to fill out the pattern.

William

[wayne goerres]

Just for kicks I drug out the old 10 and a set of pin gauges. Now I know this wont be 100% accurate but it should be close. Both barrels measure the same. they measure .796 all the way down to about 3" from the muzzle and .730 to the end. So there is .030th constriction in each barrel. I am not positive what that equates to but it sounds like full and full. If that isn't correct some one please say so.

[scott kittredge]

Just for kicks I drug out the old 10 and a set of pin gauges. Now I know this wont be 100% accurate but it should be close. Both barrels measure the same. they measure .796 all the way down to about 3" from the muzzle and .730 to the end. So there is .030th constriction in each barrel. I am not positive what that equates to but it sounds like full and full. If that isn't correct some one please say so.

yes, you should get 70 to 80 % patterns with that gun.

[Steve Havener]

Harder shot such as high antimony (magnum) lead, "good" quality copper plated not the current copper washed stuff or the newer non toxic shot like Nice shot will go a long way to tighten your patterns.

[Pete Lester]

I was using one of Charlie's favorite loads. 1/8oz no fours 19grs Red Dot in a Remington hull cut down to 2 7/8" with a Rem SP 10 wad and a Win 209 primer. I am not sure about the chokes on the gun. I don't have anything to measure them with properly. Still pretty limited on what you can get your hands on to load with in this area. Would 7625 be a better choice for hunting loads than Red Dot.

Yes I think 7625 would be a better choice for a heavier load. 32 grains of 7625 with 1 1/4 ounce is a Sherman Bell load that develops 6700 psi and 1170 fps. I'd feel comfortable upping it to 1 3/8 ounce but that is just me.

There is a lower pressure published load for Longshot powder using 1 3/8 ounce of Nice Shot in the Federal Hull. 8800 psi with a velocity of 1335 fps. Remember Nice Shot is loaded to lead recipes adding and additional 1500 psi. In this case you are going from Nice Shot to lead so that should be 1 3/8 of lead moving at 1335 with a pressure of 7300 psi. If it patterns well that would be a good turkey load in a composite barreled short ten.

If the Red Dot is not giving you the pattern you are looking for try 22gr of Green Dot with 1 1/8 ounce. I have used that a lot on clay pigeons. When I really want to reach out and touch crows I used 27gr of Green Dot with 1 1/4 ounce. Alliant has published loads for GD using 29 grains with 1 1/4 ounce in a 3.5" hull, pressure is 8800 psi and velocity 1265. I have shot a lot of them through a twist barrel NH without issue.

Closer is almost always better, but short tens that can pattern in the high 80 and low 90 percent at 40 yards with 1 1/4 ounce loads are very effective beyond that range. However Turkey's are not ducks.

[Rick Losey]

Closer is almost always better, but short tens that can pattern in the high 80 and low 90 percent at 40 yards with 1 1/4 ounce loads are very effective beyond that range. However Turkey's are not ducks.


I patterned one of my short tens at 40yards multiple times- 91/92 percent with lead 4s in both barrels

not that i would shoot at that range - but replicating Charlie's dr. pepper can 70yard test- 5 pellets in the can

this one is not a brush gun

[scott kittredge]

for my 10 ga turkey loads, i shoot 1 1/2 oz lead 6's, 38 grs bluedot, sp 10 wad, and roll crimp

[wayne goerres]

I tried that load. It made my W&C Scott hammerless double. Your are almost at my 8ga light load. 1 3/4 oz no 4s and 38gr blue dot.

[wayne goerres]

I have a little 7625 powder. Are you using a roll crimp and will a win 209 primer work with this load Pete.

[Pete Lester]

I have a little 7625 powder. Are you using a roll crimp and will a win 209 primer work with this load Pete.

Yes I roll crimped it with the Win 209 primer. The Sherman Bell load for 1 1/4 was a folded crimp, since I was upping the shot weight which would increase pressure I opted to offset some of the increase with a roll crimp. You could probably back off the powder a grain or two but I don't think you have to. Understand though you venturing into unpublished reloading recipe territory with this loading.

One thing about 7625, no matter the loading it has a very loud boom.

[wayne goerres]

Thank you Pete. I will give it a try. A friend of mine tried the Blue dot load I put together in his 10ga auto loader and his jaw dropped. I like the wood on my guns that's why I am searching for something else. What about wad pressure. My Mec press is still set were it was when it came from the factory or dose it make any difference.

[Dean Romig]

Funny, just yesterday there was a discussion over breakfast on the way to our sporting club, about the merits of the modern practice of shooting fine shot at turkeys and going for the head. The concensus by several long time hunters is, that works well when the bird is called in relatively close, but also that the old timers knew what they were doing by shooting 2's as generally recommended by the period ammo companies for the large birds. Again, 4's are the max allowed for turkeys nowadays here in PA.


Frank, what do you and your friends consider to be "fine shot"?

4's are the "max allowed", meaning the largest shot size allowed? Wouldn't that have been a wise decision, considering 4's and smaller would allow for a denser pattern than 2's and larger?.... keeping in mind not every turkey hunter uses a gun choked 'extra full' or tighter.

[Dean Romig]

for my 10 ga turkey loads, i shoot 1 1/2 oz lead 6's, 38 grs bluedot, sp 10 wad, and roll crimp


That is one heck of a load! I can testify by the longbeard I killed dead at about forty yards in 2013. Scott sent me some to try and I still have several left over.

[Pete Lester]

Thank you Pete. I will give it a try. A friend of mine tried the Blue dot load I put together in his 10ga auto loader and his jaw dropped. I like the wood on my guns that's why I am searching for something else. What about wad pressure. My Mec press is still set were it was when it came from the factory or dose it make any difference.

Wad pressure was a factor in the era or use of nitro cards and fiber wads, with plastic shot cups it's not much of factor. You don't see wad pressure mentioned in more modern reloading data. Like you my MEC was set at the factory and has never been adjusted.

[Frank Srebro]

Frank, what do you and your friends consider to be "fine shot"?

4's are the "max allowed", meaning the largest shot size allowed? Wouldn't that have been a wise decision, considering 4's and smaller would allow for a denser pattern than 2's and larger?.... keeping in mind not every turkey hunter uses a gun choked 'extra full' or tighter.

Dean, some good questions ..... I consider fine shot for turkeys to be 6's and smaller diameter. Surely, fine shot will create a denser pattern and is very effective for turkeys at moderate range, but as the yardage stretches, the velocity and thus energy/penetration of fine shot drops off much more quickly than 4's or better yet 2's. There's just no substitute for body cavity penetration at longish ranges. The largest diameter allowed in PA is size 4 lead. And if it were legal today for turkeys I'd be shooting hard lead 2's in my 3-inch 12's and short 10's - both with heavy, high velocity loads. As I do for called predators in the winter. Again, all this is my opinion only but it's based on years of fox hunting with trailing hounds when I was a kid, and having hunted turkeys even when we had to drive to the deep mountains to find the few that were around then. My hunting mentor "Goldie" used 2's, period, he killed hundreds of foxes for bounty, and a fox is a whole lot smaller than a turkey. How I wish I might once again hear the baying of his hounds as they got closer, the adrenaline got to pumping, and I knew that '97 was loaded with Peters 2's. It's just too easy to misjudge range when in the woods, and see wounded heavier game run off or fly away.

[William Davis]

I have gone as much as 27 grs Green Dot 1 1/4 oz shot. Safe in my Parker 10 but a little too much kick for clays. Dropped to 26 grs GD 1 1/8 oz. If hunting would use the 27 x 1 1/4 for sure.

On relative quickness charts Green Dot looks to be a good substitute for 7625

It's hard to measure 10 chokes but either load throws full choke looking patterns.

William.

[charlie cleveland]

we can still use no 2 shot in mississippi...i load one barrel with 2s and the other barrel with 5 or 6 s... my favorite load are the heavy loads..low power loads will kill good at 35 steps or less but must of my turkeys want to hang up at 45 to 50 steps most of the time...maybe i need new decoys they are old.....one thing for sure use the gun and load you like and you will kill turkeys...charlie

[scott kittredge]

i shoot the 6's because it shoots the best in my gun. the blue dot is a good heavy load powder with low presser . i woods hunt and get my birds in close 25 yds or so. my grand son dropped 2 long beards with 20 ga with 1 oz of 6's at 15 yds and 35 yds. i use 6's because they pattern better than the 4's if the 4's shot better i would use them. in my 870 pump, i use 1 5/8ths oz of 4's because it shoots the best with them, you just have to test your gun on paper.

[Jerry Harlow]

Just for kicks I drug out the old 10 and a set of pin gauges. Now I know this wont be 100% accurate but it should be close. Both barrels measure the same. they measure .796 all the way down to about 3" from the muzzle and .730 to the end. So there is .030th constriction in each barrel. I am not positive what that equates to but it sounds like full and full. If that isn't correct some one please say so.

Wayne,

.796 and .730? That's a .066 difference. So either the barrels have been honed or they are oversized/overbored right from the factory (which is possible). At some point right before the last 3 inches of choke they may come down from .796 for a little bit and then go down to .730.

That would be some choke if it is .066. An XXXX full? .045 is very tight in the ten. Maybe blown patterns due to the constriction? Or did you mean to type .766 since you wrote that you had .030 choke?

[wayne goerres]

Sorry Jerry it's a type o It is .766. thirty thousands per barrel.

[Bill Murphy]

I patterned my old lightweight AYA ten at 40 and 60 yards with my favorite factory load of 1 3/4 ounces of steel #2. At 40 yards, a mallard would have about twenty shot in the body when centered. At 60, that mallard would still have sufficient shot to kill. A goose would have had many more than required to kill. That gun has about .045 of choke. I still have the pattern sheets although the gun was sold to a friend.

[Paul Harm]

Wayne, the plastic wads give a denser pattern. The shot cup will stop the shot from rubbing flat when it goes down the barrel.

[wayne goerres]

As soon as I get time I think I will try pete's load with 7625 and 1 3/8oz shot. Just for kicks I may order some brass shells and try some black powder. Dose anybody know where I can find some paper 10ga hulls.