Buying Damascus Barreled guns

[Bill Holcombe]

So obviously if I know the person I am dealing with from the forum or by reputation it is a lot easier to put stock in them saying barrels are good/safe.

That is what happened when I bought my DH from a fellow PGCA member, however, I know some of you shop online a lot and not always from more verifiable sources-Julia, connecticut shotgun, etc.

My question for those of you who buy regularly online on say gunbroker, is how can ya'll feel confident that the gun you are buying is actually a decent/shootable gun?

This isn't a question of the safety of damascus, my love of shooting my DH has taken all that concern away, but it is more in regards to difficulty of determining condition of barrels on gunbroker or other sources. While I know there can be equal concerns with non damascus barrels, I just seem to be more concerned when looking at Damascus barreled guns then most steel. Plus, I typically only buy colt revolvers on GB anyway.

I am certain part of it is just knowledge and experience, and I am fully in favor of buying from PGCA members, but sometimes what you are looking for might or might not be available....plus PGCA members don't typically offer layaway :rotf:

Anyway just curious, trying to further extend my meager education, thank ya for your time!

[Rick Losey]

ask questions

set an inspection period

have the measuring tools


that's about it

[todd allen]

I feel safer with good Damascus, than I do with good steel from the same era.
Keep a trusted gunsmith on speed dial.

[Bill Holcombe]

Again, it isn't a lack of safety with damascus. It is probably more a lack of familiarity and knowledge of the barrels. I have been shooting and taking care of steel barrels for 25+ years, since I got my first BB gun when I was 6 more or less. It is easy for me to spot flaws with a steel barrel. I don't have the same familiarity with damascus.

I am perfectly comfortable shooting a damascus shotgun, my issue is still in determining what is a good barrel vs. one I should walk away from.

[Mills Morrison]

What Rick said

[wayne goerres]

If the ad says as is or no warranty or all sales are final run don't walk in the opposite direction. If the seller isn't willing to offer a three day inspection period look else where.

[Bob Hardison]

You or your smith should be able to determine chamber length, bore diameter and barrel wall thickness along with a visual inspection. Choke restriction is a plus. JMHO Bob

[John Campbell]

... my issue is still in determining what is a good barrel vs. one I should walk away from.

To paraphrase a recent US President, that all depends on what your definition of "good" is.

Frankly, you are the only one who can answer that. And most of the time, your answer will be related to pitting, wall thickness, or structural integrity.

If light "shootable" pitting is OK, then that's good. If heavier pitting is OK as long as it can be safely honed out, then that's good. If marginally thin walls are OK then that's good. If barrels that don't ring like the Bells of St. Mary's are OK, then that's good. If lengthened chambers are OK, then that's good. If removable dents or bulges are OK, then that's good.

In short, it all depends on how fussy you are. And how much experience you gain. Unfortunately, a lot of experience costs money. :banghead:

[Virginia Hessler]

I am perfectly comfortable shooting a damascus shotgun, my issue is still in determining what is a good barrel vs. one I should walk away from.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts would be get a wall thickness gauge, take your time and learn how to use it properly. A lot of auctions offer a 3 day inspection period, that's plenty of time to feel comfortable or not with your purchase .
There is a ton of info out there on the net about wall thickness and determining the safety of the barrels.
Good luck, Tom

[Russ Jackson]

Hello Bill , when buying a Damascus barreled gun on line ,I always contact the seller and explain that I am interested in bidding on his gun and that I own a Hosford Barrel Wall thickness gauge and that if I bid and win the gun ,I would need to have a five day inspection on the gun to take my time and measure the barrels and if the Barrel walls checked out good then I would keep the gun ,so far no one has ever turned me down ,remember these fellows are interested in selling their firearm ! With that said of course everyone wants perfect bores but I prefer pitting to honing and with this gauge if you really take your time you you are able to measure most pits as the tip will drop into the pit ! I am adding a link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jQZn4kohH4 ,to the Hosford Gauge ,they seem expensive but ,the cost is well worth it if you purchase a pricey gun with bad barrels and find out about it later ! Hope this is of interest to you , I am not associated with " Hosford and Co. ,just a consumer that is well pleased with this product ! Best ; Russ

[Brian Dudley]

When looking at guns with Damascus barrels with just the eyes, the things to look for are self explanatory and are kind of true with fluid steel barrels as well. How much pitting is there, are the ribs tight, debts and how bad are they, and check for cracks/splits.

Be Leary of any 100+ year old gun with perfect bores if the outside condition of the gun is poor.

Putting in the bores always looks deeper than it actually is.

Beyond that you can only tell so much without the proper equipment to measure wall thickness and bore diameters.

And once you get to measuring enough barrels you get used to seeing what is typical on barrel sets. There are many who are very conservative and say that barrels with less than .030-.035" of thickness should not be shot. But if that were the case, you would be discounting a lot of barrels that are as they were when built new. And then you have the other side of the coin which is British proof standards which may look awfully thin. But they are known for building very light barreled guns.

[CraigThompson]

I sell a lot on Gunbroker and I buy from time to time there as well .

I put stock in the persons feedback and whether they have a no questions returned policy .

IF I fellow has 1500 feedbacks and maybe 10 are negative I would consider him honest . Because remember not only are there fraudulent sellers , but also buyers that think they should get gold for scrap metal prices . And by no means was that comment pointed at you or anyone else here , just commenting on some of the folks I've dealt with in well over 3,000 transactions in both directions .

[Jay Oliver]

I just went through this again and I like several of the suggestions posted here(that I wished I had done). In the last 18 months I have bought 3 Damascus Parkers online. All 3 had issues:

Gun 1 - Either damaged after pictures or in shipping – The barrels had a dent on the breach end where it looked like they were dropped. Seller did not package well or insure even though I requested. He did not take the gun back but paid for repairs that made it better but not right.

Gun 2 - Bought on gunbroker and the gun was not as described. It had several issues and I think the ad said “nice bores” and there was a decent sized dent on the left barrel. Seller thought I was crazy and I was stuck with it.

Gun 3 - Received it yesterday and sent it back this morning. There were a total of 3 hairline cracks in the barrels and I felt it was not safe to shoot. You can see some pictures in the thread I posted in the Hammer Gun forum. I am glad I could return it, but the cracks in the barrels should have been listed they were hard to miss. I am still getting over this one…

So I am 0 for 3 in buying a Parker online, I should know better by now. I really like the idea of saying “I will only bid/buy if I have an inspection period and I will be looking for these types of condition issues/criteria…” The all sales are final, will make me run from now on as well.

I am not saying I won’t buy another one online, I am just burned out on disappointment. In that time frame I also bought a Damascus 12 gauge lifter from a PGCA member and everything was great. Follow the good advice you received in this thread and you’ll be fine. Jay

[Drew Hause]

Some thoughts here
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit

[Rick Losey]

That's a bad streak of bad luck

Have to say. I have been lucky so far. A couple Parker's and a Winchester off GB and no surprises. May well be getting another gun there soon, but I already have my questions answered and the inspection period defined in an email

One thing I always ask and seems to be hard to get is the drops, comb and heel. And I have yet to get one where the seller can tell me the minimum wall thickness. That is why I like an email detailing the inspection. The one I am looking at, the seller said to take it out and shoot a round (but don't take it apart :rotf: ). I like when the seller is that confident

All that said. I would always prefer to deal face to face or at least with some one I knew

[Patrick Butler]

Damascus Parkers are a great investment as many still shun these guns, believing the false tales due to fools measuring smokeless as black powder and the tales gun-makers who, after WW I, had steel that would replace the strength of the long work of many British craftsman who were lost in places such as Flanders Field as well as avoiding import taxes.

I keep looking for that 20 gauge high-grade original damascus Parker...which I doubt I will ever find. But, the chase is half the fun.

Patrick

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Make sure you have a inspection period that allows you to thoroughly check barrel wall thickness, etc, most sellers will tell you the barrel wall thickness and answer any questions before shipping, no one likes to ship guns back and forth, they can be damaged in shipping it has happened many times. A reputable dealer or person will always take the gun back if the item is not as described. Now sometimes you run into people who after receiving the gun will try to pick it to death, For me I just tell them if not satisfied send it back, my two cents, Gary

[WmRike]

A couple decades ago I was into Damascus pretty hard and was x-raying and magnafluxing barrels. My takeaway from all of that was that a good visual examination was probably the best tool available. Unless it is a high-end gun that has obviously been very well cared for, I just would not buy barrels without being able to hold them and do some measuring.

[Drew Hause]

William: do you by chance still have any hard x-ray images? Who interpreted the results? Are you aware of any industrial NDT standards for radiography?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24519472/408815323.jpg

[edgarspencer]

Are you aware of any industrial NDT standards for radiography?

ASNT-TC1A was the controlling document which ASTM, ASME, and Mil Std 271 & 278 rely for grading defects. Mils Stds have changed dramatically in the last few years, due in large part to the costs associated with meeting those specs.
(read : make it cheaper)

ASNT also defines the requirements for personnel to be qualified to perform and interpret examination results, and graded in 'levels'. Level 2 is generally the qualifications for persons performing the tests. Radiography is divided into two personnel, persons doing the radiography, and persons reading the film.
The common disciplines are MT (Magnetic Particle Inspeciton) PT (Penetrant Inspection) RT (Radiographic Inspection) and Yes, VT (Visual Inspection) This is the one that surprises a lot of people, but it's amazing how seeing the same thing can be so differently interpreted.


Geez I love retirement.

[Drew Hause]

I'm sorry Edgar. I did not ask my question clearly.

I am not aware of any industrial standards for interpretation, nor have I found images, of radiography of pattern welded shotgun barrels.

Mine were done by a Level III NDE ASME accredited examiner at TEAM Industrial Services here in Phoenix, but I would also very much like to find/encourage someone with a special interest in pattern welded barrels to develop a testing program, which might have a significant commercial application.

[edgarspencer]

Ah, Yes. ASTM has a hugely expensive set of "Reference Radiographs" whose use is controlled by section E486. I have a set for "Steel Castings, Up to 2 inch" and a set for "Steel Castings, Greater than 2 inch". I believe there are similar standards for forgings and non ferrous materials, but I have never seen any where a specific product was used to develop them (no pun intended). I think pattern welded barrels predates ASTM and radiography in general, and their manufacture pretty much ceased before the technique was developed.
Most Level III examiners also maintain their Level II proficiency (sounds odd, but true) as it's the Level II who does, and interprets the procedure, under a quality manual or program written by the Level III. I was a II and III for RT, UT and MT, and oversaw the QA & QC at my company before I moved up to Mgmt (end of the fun part of my career)

In order to develop a set of standards, it would be necessary to accumulate samples with representative defects, like inclusions, gas, slag, linear and non-linear cracks, etc. These would also have to include levels of severity; kind of a go-no go set. Unless they have come up with a way to reproduce radiographs, each set of standards would have to be made from actual shots of the standards. The governing body maintains the samples (sort of like NIST I guess)
I suspect this is really boring for the bulk of readers.

[Daryl Corona]

:eek: