Future of Parker Collection and Double Gun Collecting

[Eldon Goddard]

It seems to me that most double gun collectors are not in the 18 to 30 range and I do not know how many of our organization are under 30 like myself but it does not seem like a lot.(I think this just goes to show with age comes wisdom) So what do you think will be the future of these guns? What will happen in 30 years when the majority of those interested in these guns are gone? I would hope that more younger people take interest but from my experience my generation has no interest in antique vintage guns of any kind. It is not hard to find people interested in guns and many interested in buying their first gun but all go right to buying glocks and ar-15s. I do my best to get friends interested by taking out my stuff and having them shoot them but I have never successfully interested anyone in buying or collecting them. What do you guys think?

[Bill Murphy]

Collectors normally don't get interested in shotguns costing thousands of dollars until the get to the age where they can pay for them.

[Dean Romig]

And in the current (for the last decade plus) economy, that will not soon happen. Every younger person I talk to balks at the price of buying even an inexpensive Parker of $2K or less.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I see part of the problem, as the lack/difficulty of upland hunting opportunities. It used to be that a youngster got involved with hunting and guns by small game hunting, rabbits and birds. Now it is the almighty deer that drives youth hunting and you don't use doubles for that. I have been a chapter chairman for the Ruffed Grouse Society for 30 years now, and most of the people that attend haven't seen a grouse in 10 years, thus the interest in that kind of hunting doesn't develop. My son, 27, has shot deer and turkeys, but has never shot a grouse--he has shot game farm pheasant. When I was in college, I was reading the works of Spillers, Woolner, Evans, Knight, etc and within 6 weeks of graduating from optometry school bought a Brittany, and a 16 ga Fox SW Deluxe and 16 ga Parker VH 16( still shoot both) because that was what in my mind were the proper guns for upland hunting. My father was a hunter, but he died when I was 7, luckily, I had mentors in my Uncle Sam, and my best friend's(Terry) father who looked after a poor(and yes, we were quite poor) boy and took me hunting(rabbits and grouse) frequently. I killed my first grouse with a 12 ga SXS, one of those Stevens with the nylon stock--boy did it kick--and I have been shooting SXS's since.
I know this is kind of a long diatribe, but we must first get the youth interested in hunting upland and expose them to double guns so that when they are older they can appreciate good/fine guns and continue our passion.

[John Campbell]

To borrow a phrase from Robert Ruark, "Something of Value" begins with one's perception of value.

In our case, that value only partially resides in the gun itself. Sure, Parkers and other fine double guns have intrinsic value. They are not only tools of sport, but works of art.

But to find true value in the double gun, it must encompass intangible things. Like a crisp, clear Autumn morning. The excitment of youth. The anticipation of the flush. A great dog and companion. And... in great measure, a reverence for the tradition of hunting and shooting along with a respect for the game involved.

Sadly, today's youth have little of that. They see guns as they see computers. As machines. And the context they are used in is combat. Virtual or otherwise. Thus, black guns and pistols with plastic stocks are the norm. Double guns with engraving and figured wood stocks are not.

The traditions of America also also gone. Nothing is revered. Nothing is romantic. The measure of success in anything is quantity. Like piled up doves... or a top score in Call of Duty.

It all adds up to a cultural shift. The cost issue is only part of that. I priced a new Ruger 762 the other day. They're $1800 worth of plastic, paint and sloppy fit. No thank you.

Still, I would love to get more young people involved in doubles. And I think the PGCA has made a good start with its youth efforts. They should be expanded.

But age does not always bring sophistication in taste. Or wealth.

Enjoy your doubles whilst ye may...

[John Truitt]

Well said Mr Campbell!!

The answer to the original question posed is multifactorial.
One facet is exposure to the guns/ culture/ etc.
I would imagine most here have memories / fond memories of dad or grand dad and other companions who hunted/ carried/ shot side by sides. Each year and each generation we are getting future away from that exposure. The distance created is by cultural changes/ technology advances in shotguns/ etc.
So it would be concluded that a young person today who has no exposure to a Parker, or other side by side/ vintage gun, would seek out that treasure/ or object of value in the future. They have no or very little tie to such a thing.

IMO that is why the PGCA/LCSCA/ FCA/ etc are so important. These organizations will be the tools to provide the exposure to the public/ interested parties. Events like the Southern side by side and Vintage Cup/ Pheasant fest/ Orvis Cup etc are serving the same purpose.

I think with the continued existence of the PGCA and other organizations like it the future of double guns is bright and full of possibilities.

[Dean Romig]

Right on Dr. John!

Key words are certainly "exposure" and "the future of double guns is bright and full of possibilities." but it is our (every one of us) responsibility to expose young folks to these guns and the activities and fun that goes along with it... or the 'possibilities' will be very limited.

[Dave Noreen]

Collectors normally don't get interested in shotguns costing thousands of dollars until the get to the age where they can pay for them.

Come on Bill!! Doesn't everyone start in their teens like we did? I mowed a lot of lawns and still had to borrow $40 from my Father for that Super-Fox.

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

In my case gun preferences seem to have skipped a generation. I started my oldest son shooting with a sxs on clay birds thrown with a hand thrower. He hit a few, and showed some interest in shooting but never did well until I bought him an over/under. I don't know if it was the fit, or feel, of the over/under but his shooting improved with that gun. We still shoot at various sxs events and he enjoys using my Parker's but whenever he shoots alone he goes right back to the over/under. My Grandsons, on the other hand, go right to the Parker's and Foxes. So maybe there is some hope. There might be a waning of interest now, but I don't think that the future of side x sides is as bleak as it appears.

[Eldon Goddard]

Collectors normally don't get interested in shotguns costing thousands of dollars until the get to the age where they can pay for them.

Bill I have found many good usable doubles locally for around 500 dollars about the cost of a glock. Especially Ithacas and Bakers. Also many gun owners I know are willing to spend over 3000 on an AR.

[Rich Anderson]

Eldon you bring up a point I have often pondered my self. first let me commend you on your interest in these fine guns at an early age. I always thought I'd leave my guns to my little brother as he liked to shoot and hunt but unfortunately he left us to early. I have a daughter who has no interest in my collection at all so there's no future there.
Our youth as mentioned in other posts is a generation for the most part interested in instant gratification and the newest gizmo's. The history behind these guns and not just shotguns but rifles such as Pre 64 Winchesters is lost on them. There is little nostalgia left in today's America as I see it. I can sit in a deer blind and wonder who carried the M70 before me, what did the prior custodian use it for, did he take a deer with it?
IMHO the biggest determent to our youth and these old guns is the cost they are reaching. Jobs are scarce money is tight and younger people are raising families not spending thousands of dollars on a Parker, Fox or Winchester.
I go to a lot of SXS shoots and it's rare to see Dad and son or daughter shooting alongside them.
I have often considered cutting back to a couple of rifles and shotguns and selling the rest while the market is good but somehow I just can't bring myself to do it.....yet.

[Mike Franzen]

I think there will always be a market for these guns. To judge future collectors / shooters by what the younger generations like right now might be a fallacy. A lot of My generation back in the day were hippies, freaks and flower children. Now, I'll bet some are Parker collectors. Fortunately most in my gen moved on. Unfortunately, The rest reside in politics.

[Channing Will]

I think there will always be a market for these guns. To judge future collectors / shooters by what the younger generations like right now might be a fallacy. A lot of My generation back in the day were hippies, freaks and flower children. Now, I'll bet some are Parker collectors. Fortunately most in my gen moved on. Unfortunately, The rest reside in politics.

I agree Mike there will always be a market. I am in my late 20s and grew up in a gun shop so naturally I was born with the gunsmithing and collecting bug. Most people my age, including myself, don't have the money to collect a bunch of doubles but that doesn't mean we won't find them interesting and valuable in the future. The same could be said for motorcycles or classic cars. You don't see many 20-30 year olds driving Harleys and buying up classic 150K muscle cars at Barrett-Jackson auctions but that doesn't mean the market is dieing. As long as organizations like the PGCA keep growing in members from year to year I think we will be fine.

[CraigThompson]

I dunno when I was in my early teens I was interested in doubles , granted I couldn't afford an A1 Special but I can't now either . But you have to take into consideration I grew up in a household where pumps or semi autos were disdained . So doubles , bird dogs , trap and skeet were a natural progression . I would like to think there are still some youngsters growing up in that environment albeit very few .

[Mills Morrison]

The way to do it is one at a time. It is up to all of us to each do our part.

[Eldon Goddard]

I agree mills all we can do is show people what they are and why we love them and hope they gain interest. My experience may be skewed as I live in a large city with little hunting and little interest in shotguns in general.

[Craig Larter]

I am very optimistic about the future of vintage double gun collecting. This year we had more youth hunters than ever at our duck club for youth day. The interesting thing to me is the number of female youth hunters in the current generation. Our female youth hunter shot more ducks than any of the guys!! She also was the only young female to bag a turkey in the youth season in the spring. Anyhow, all of these young hunters where exposed to vintage doubles and one hunted ducks during the youth season with a Parker. This summer we intend to host a youth clays day and let any of the young folks experience the joy of shooting a vintage double. They may not be hooked for various reason until they mature but like us they will never forget the experience. The future looks bright but as others have said we need to plant the seed.

[William McClintock]

I see part of the problem, as the lack/difficulty of upland hunting opportunities. It used to be that a youngster got involved with hunting and guns by small game hunting, rabbits and birds. Now it is the almighty deer that drives youth hunting and you don't use doubles for that. .... I had mentors in my Uncle Sam, and my best friend's(Terry) father who looked after a poor(and yes, we were quite poor) boy and took me hunting(rabbits and grouse) frequently. I killed my first grouse with a 12 ga SXS, one of those Stevens with the nylon stock--boy did it kick--and I have been shooting SXS's since.
I know this is kind of a long diatribe, but we must first get the youth interested in hunting upland and expose them to double guns so that when they are older they can appreciate good/fine guns and continue our passion.


It seems to me that to get younger people interested in classic American guns they have to first be willing and able to use one and have fun doing it.

Harold is correct; the days of easily available bird hunting, except in the upper Midwest, parts of the North East and the West are gone. The Old South with it's famous quail hunting is gone, replaced with a huge pine monoculture. You have to "pay to play" in Texas and the damn 10 year old drought has drastically reduced quail numbers.

To get teenagers interested in bird hunting now, when they have to toil and sweat buckets to even see a grouse or shoot at a quail covey rise, is almost impossible. They'd rather sit in front of the computer and play in comfort. Some one who is just beginning a sport or hobby needs a few quick wins to keep their interest going. There are damn few quick wins now-a-days in bird hunting.

The clay shooting associations (Sporting Clays, etc) are doing a pretty good job in youth shooting instruction and youth shooting leagues, but one sees only a very few clays shooters using classics such as a 16 gauge Parker DHE as I do. Tricked out O/Us and semi autos rule, so I don't see any near immediate gains in classic SxS shooters there. Hopefully as they get older....

No doubt everyone who has called for supporting youth shooting is correct; but I am fairly pessimistic about the current high interest in classic SxS guns lasting for the long term.

I hope I am wrong.

[Mills Morrison]

I am optimistic too. Partly because I have seen organizations in Savannah where the average age was about 60 or 70 gain a large number of young members. You get one, then another, pretty soon you have a bunch.

There is a perception that Parkers and vintage guns are expensive and valuable when there are plenty of affordable shooters in the lower grades.

[Tom Pellegrini]

In addition to Mr. Goddard's original post. When I was in my early twenties I started trap shooting. You could of put a $1,000 in my hand and asked me to break a target with a sxs and I would have said "keep your money". Now in my early 60's I started sporting clays. I also work all the events at Backwoods Quail Club in SC. Three years ago I worked my first Fall Southern SXS Classic. I, as you might say, "was infected with the Parker disease". I couldn't search enough info about Parkers and couldn't read enough about Parkers. As said before, the appreciation comes with a little age. I do believe the tradition will carry on.

[Bill Murphy]

Craig Larter and a couple of others have mentioned that the first step is to introduce young people to shooting and hunting and then explain to them that there is a "tradition" involved in blood sports. The explanation of the "tradition" is what is the difficult part. Putting side by side shotguns in their hands is the easy part. Sponsoring "side by side" events in sporting clays shoots is another possibility. All of these Ducks Unlimited, Quail Unlimited, and Grouse Unlimited events in our area around Washington, DC have side by side events as sub-events, even if they have to be sponsored by double gun people. Side by side events cause people who want to win "Something" to enter those events. Thanks for posting your suggestions.

[Linn Matthews]

I have thought about this also. Creating the venues for shooting is part of the solution. The firearm is another. I have a very modest collection and have decided to "gift" my individual guns to persons that I think will enjoy them before I pass on. I will ask them to agree to do the same thing with the guns when their time comes
I figure I will lose some and win more.

[Bob Hayes]

I have wondered the future of hunting for a few years.Being in the business I have seen several trends that aggravate me.One everyone seems to want to eject shells as fast as they can.Never learning to hit anything before they pull the trigger.And second is not as bad but still bothers me is that people seem to want to hunt in the absolute largest group they can now days.Rarely do I get singles or double hunters any more.Its not cost other than gas to and from.Its more like an attempt at experiencing the outdoors but lets have a party while were doing it.
I have been trying to do my part by buying every sxs I can get my hands on at a good price and using them as loaners instead of the semi autos and pumps I used to use for that.I'll buy every stevens I can and have turned many beginners into sxs fans from the beginning of their new hobby.I'll sell them cheap when asked in hopes of making some new clients with similar interest in guns.Actually sold all my stevens 20ga's during dove season.
Someone said it earlier one or two at a time adds up.

[Frank Allegra]

Side by side events cause people who want to win "Something" to enter those events.

While I agree with this statement I must add that we need to be cautious.

Our local group was started as a group of men & women dedicated to the collection, preservation, heritage, and enjoyment of the side by side shotgun and rifle. Recently it seems that the leaders of this group have become more interested in competition. The old classics are disappearing from the events and are being replaced with more modern or customized guns. Needless to say there has been a decline in the older members that came to the events to talk sxs, check out the displays and enjoy a lunch with their friends.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

All of these post have truth to them, Double guns are addictive and will always be!I collected black guns early on and pistols, My first Parker was a P grade, I was 48 years old, had heard about Parkers, Smiths, etc but they did not interest me, Then 25 years ago my collecting world changed, I studied that P grade, I must have opened and closed it a hundred times shooting at the invisible bird going across my ceiling, I finally had discovered what I had been looking for in a gun, and only realized it when I held that Parker. Yes I finally could afford to buy one now and then, 25 years later, and yes I was late getting into the game, I am a fan! Young people educated the right way will keep the tradition of the old rabbit eared gun in vogue. I also have gifted my sons several Parkers and they now have modest collections. and they are now hooked on double guns,maybe we as the PGCA needs to present a Parker to the youth shooter of the year, each year? Gary

[John Campbell]

...maybe we as the PGCA needs to present a Parker to the youth shooter of the year, each year? Gary

I couldn't agree more. Engage the young by connecting them with the charm and magic of double guns. And sure. Have a little shooting fun arranged.

But... why re-introduce "competition" into the equation? Double guns are the reward, not the score.

So... why not have a simple drawing for the gun amongst the young shooters? They have to shoot, but they all have an equal chance to own an enchanting double gun. And get hooked!

[William McClintock]

I couldn't agree more. Engage the young by connecting them with the charm and magic of double guns. And sure. Have a little shooting fun arranged.

But... why re-introduce "competition" into the equation? Double guns are the reward, not the score.

So... why not have a simple drawing for the gun amongst the young shooters? They have to shoot, but they all have an equal chance to own an enchanting double gun. And get hooked!


I like the idea of a drawing and something for the winner and next 3 or 4 shooters.

What about starting a Parker or American classic SxS youth shooting/instruction/fun group?
There must be places where there enough Parker guys to sponsor such a thing.

[Dave Suponski]

This is a great discussion gents. My son Danny has been around the PGCA and double guns since he was around 9 years old. He is now a member and is 24 years old. I think Danny enjoy's the people as much as he enjoy's the guns themselves. He was given a Parker that he shoot's by a very gracious member and he cherishes it. He absolutly loves going to grouse camp and bird hunting. After the first hunt he was bitten....also he really enjoys shooting trap with our Parker SC.

All the above posts have very good points to ponder and I think its a combination of all that has been said previously. But the point I am trying to make in my above paragraph is the the great members this organiation has is a draw in itself. Danny enjoy's the life long friendships that have developed as a result of his exposure to the PGCA.

So take a young person under your wing and teach them the wonderful traditions that go along with shooting and hunting with a SxS.

[David Dwyer]

In my opinion this thread is one of our best ever. Lets take this and turn it into some action. Dean, would you ask each BOD member to please read it.
I would also suggest we create a youth fund and I will seed it with $500. I would also suggest that we have three great candidates for the two open BOD seats and the runner up be asked to become our youth program director. In the Fall SXS shoot I created a team slot for a youth. It was a great hit-How about the Spring SXS? How about a Parker gun for that youth? This thread has shown the commitment of our fantastic membership for a youth program-Lets get it done NOW!
David

[Mills Morrison]

Dave Suponski just hit an important point. The people. You couldn't ask for a better group of folks

[Mills Morrison]

Dave Dwyer has a good point too. I will say I don't think we need a youth coordinator so much as we need a PGCA board and membership wide effort to bring more youths into the fold. A dedicated youth shoot sounds good, but I like the idea of having a youth space at each of our major shoots. Both Southerns have that now and it adds to the fun for all. Our membership is far and wide, so one shoot in one place will only get folks close to that event, for the most part.

All of this applies equally to lady shooters. They are an important part of our future too.

[Mike Franzen]

I like the idea of a youth shoot at the different SxS venues. To encourage max participation how about we have their name registered in a drawing for a nice Parker? The drawing could be held at, say, the Southern. The more shoots they participate in the more entries they get. We could even say top gun gets 5 entries, 2nd place gets 4, 3rd gets 3, etc. These shoots could easily be organized all over the country. Also, have a parker Pages column dedicated to the shoots and shooters.

[Robin Lewis]

Boy, I like this. Rather than giving the "best shot" the advantage, I think any kid that shoots should get one ticket to win a prize (Parker?) and once a year the tickets gathered would be used to draw a winner at the annual meeting. That way, young shooters that shoot the most would have an advantage getting a ticket at each shoot but the one time shooter could still win. It shouldn't matter what event they shoot (5-stand, sporting clays, skeet, trap,..) as long as it's with a Parker (owned or loaned). If there are enough kids showing up to shoot to compete, that's great but if only one or two show up and shoot with us, they should qualify too. The goal should be to get kids shooting, preferably a double and better yet a Parker and not competing among themselves.

The problem I see is getting shoots "recognized" by the PGCA BOD as "official approved" events AND then getting them spaced around the USA. The Southern is a good place to start. The New Years shoot, Spring shoot in RI and the shoots in PA, NY and Mich get good PGCA turnout and would work but that leaves lots of geography missed. Maybe this could also spur some more PGCA members to form informal fun shoots in AZ, TX, CA ... etc?

I like the idea of a youth shoot at the different SxS venues. To encourage max participation how about we have their name registered in a drawing for a nice Parker? The drawing could be held at, say, the Southern. The more shoots they participate in the more entries they get. We could even say top gun gets 5 entries, 2nd place gets 4, 3rd gets 3, etc. These shoots could easily be organized all over the country. Also, have a parker Pages column dedicated to the shoots and shooters.

[Pete Lester]

So what happens to the market for these guns and younger folks being interested in shooting and collecting them when the use of lead shot is banned?

[Dean Romig]

Pete, let's cross that bridge IF we come to it.

Guys - all of these ideas are good ones but who's willing to pick up the ball and run with it? Who's going to volunteer to get this program off the ground and make it a viable endeavor? The BOD has asked before for people to step forward and make it all happen... there were plenty of suggestions and good ideas before but NOBODY stepped up to the plate.... There needs to be a PGCA Youth Program committee formed that will ultimately answer to the BOD but that will develop the Youth Program and run it in various areas of the country. Regional "chapters" need to be formed that will be regional only to the point that shoots and events will be simpler to organize and run if they are scaled specifically to a region. They will still operate under the auspices and direction of the PGCA.

Please don't expect the current BOD or Officers to take this on - Lord knows we all have pretty full plates as it is. The old adage that "ten percent of the people do ninety percent of the work" holds as true in the PGCA as in any other organization. We need to spread the workload out. The Youth Program just will not happen without a sufficient number of dedicated volunteers.

Oh, by the way.... this is a non-paying job, but there will be loads of "atta-boys" and good ol' back slaps. We sincerely hope that will be enough of a reward.

[Pete Lester]

Pete, let's cross that bridge IF we come to it.



California is already there, the clock is ticking. My question is in response to the OP's question not what the thread evolved into.

http://www.kcet.org/news/redefine/rewild/legislation/california-enacts-first-statewide-lead-ammo-ban.html

[Pete Lester]

ATA trapshooting is another shooting hobby that takes a little jingle in your pocket to participate. When I was actively shooting in 80's and 90's shooters under 35 stood out, there were not too many of them. The NH Trap Shooting Association took some initiative to increase participation of youth shooter < 18 yrs. At the annual state championship, NH youth shooters could shoot the entire three day program for half price with all ammunition paid for by the NH Trap Shooting Association. It was a wonderful opportunity for young people. Unfortunately the number of youth shooters participating could still be counted on one hand with some fingers left over. What to do when the largest obstacle to participation was removed and still no improvement in participation?

[Dean Romig]

Advertise as a public service in local newspapers and periodicals...? Public service radio ads...?

[John Campbell]

Whether for good or ill, advertising is something I know a bit about.

I’m also an incorrigible double gun man. So… here goes:

“General audience” messaging is something that I am afraid is not appropriate, nor cost-effective here.

The good news is that you already have two good channels of promotion: Parker Pages and this web site. Along with other double gun-oriented web sites.

If the type of general youth program under discussion here is to be promoted, then the BOD should agree on some parameters, goals – and then plan to address them both.

Just a bit of pure speculation:

If the “goal” is to promote youth interest in, and passion for, double barrel shotguns – including Parkers – then your audience is best focused to the one you already have. At least to start. Get PGCA members to encourage friends and family to have youngsters “come give it a try” at the next event.

Then let them spread the word about all the fun they have.

Obstacles should be minimized for young people to shoot, too. Competition and adult/peer pressure is an obstacle. Keep it “just for fun.” No pressure. Just shoot. Hit. Miss. Who cares! You want them to like the experience. And the old guns. Not fear looking stupid in the eyes of others. Remember how you felt when you were 18… or even 25? And times that by ten for the ladies.

Also… have some doubles on hand for the young people to borrow and shoot, along with kindly instruction if they wish. Parkers would be nice. But if there’s a good Fox available from a member, who cares? Free cartridges too (to a point).

At both Southern SxS, Vintagers, and other events, the promoters and host clubs can be asked to cooperate in this effort. In the end, it’s all to their benefit.

Then, every young person who shoots and “gives it a go” gets their name tossed into a hat for the gun drawing. That way, even if a 17-year-old girl doesn’t hit one target, she has fun and a chance to go home with a classic double. Who wouldn’t be a fan of shooting if they won??!! Or would come back next time and try it again.

Where do you get the guns? Donations. Or… some of our member/craftsmen might have a few “fixer uppers” lying about that could be brought back to life with little effort, and be a lifetime treasure to a youngster. I might also point out that it would be tax-deductible… and that they would get a lot of positive publicity by doing so.

I just sold my last Parker project gun, or I’d be happy donate it for starters. But I’ll keep an eye out for other pound puppies if I can find them.

This could go on ad infinitum. But something should be done to preserve the Parker/double gun world of the future for collectors, shooters, and your great grandchildren’s inheritance.

The PGCA is the perfect organization to do it too!

[Linn Matthews]

Get some sponsors---the gun companies, the ammo companies. They benefit as gun and ammo sales grow over the years

[Kevin McCormack]

"When I was a boy, ducks darkened the sky."
- George Bragaw, Sage of South Marsh Island (RIP)

Periodically, through the grace of God, they do so again and again. Now is one of those "agains" Take the youthful who are interested and worthy and put them "In the Blood", so to speak. If they disdain, no matter - it's not for everyone, but for those who take to it, they are the future of us afield with rod and gun again.

[Mike Franzen]

I think, with a little cooperation, this would be a fairly easy undertaking to launch. There are SxS shoots held in various parts of the country in which the pgca has a presence. We would have to establish rules and guidelines and get the event sanctioned by the BOD. Youth would be encouraged to participate and be entered in the drawing. Whoever is at the event representing the pgca could could contact the coordinator and let him know who participated and how many entries they get. At the designated time and place a winner is drawn. If things are kept light and fun and not made into anything more than a way to encourage youth participation it wouldn't be that hard to do.

[Dean Romig]

Aside from David Dwyer's very generous $500 seed money offer (which is a big commitment for certain) we still haven't seen anybody step forward and offer to put on the "Youth Program Coordinator" hat and start the ball rolling.

It was a little over a year and a half ago that one of our fine members sent a "youth program" outline to the members of the BOD, in which he had been involved with a youth archery program. It was an extremely well thought-out outline and it left no stone unturned inasmuch as spelling out every step of the process. There's no reason why a PGCA Youth Program coordinator can't adopt this very same outline and adapt it to a program of our own.

[Bruce Day]

The PGCA has previously donated handsome amounts to the youth shooting and firearms education programs of the NRA and Pheasants Forever. No sense in re-inventing the wheel, but it would be nice to expose youth to classic double guns.

I teach a lot of shot gunning at our local Boy Scout camp ( plus pistol and rifle , and cowboy action shooting in the summer) and I always bring along a 20ga Parker and let the advanced shooter kids break some clays with it.

[Mike Franzen]

I think I would consider it if no one else wants to do it. I enjoy kids and have worked with them in my karate schools for years.

[Dean Romig]

Mike, thanks for your tentative step forward.

Please get in touch with Robin Lewis - he has expressed an interest in the PGCA Youth Program.

This may be a good start.

Now that we have a couple of guys who are interested in getting this thing off the ground it should be easy to find others who will be willing to get involved. All it takes is someone to show that this is nothing to be ignored and certainly nothing to be afraid of - the workload can be shared and the rewards will be gratifying.

[John Marscher]

At the ripe old age of 25, I promise to continue emptying my bank account to acquire more double guns.

If anyone in South Carolina would like to help begin a youth program of some sort, I would be more than happy to try and run with it. I have many friends my age that enjoy shooting sxs guns.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks John!

This is really looking like it will go somewhere.

So, with Mike and John and with some good ideas from Robin it is getting very encouraging.
Thank you gentlemen! Onward and upward...!

[David Dwyer]

John
I am in SC and shoot at Backwoods at least once a week. I also have several Parkers from 28ga to 10 ga I let people shoot. I will talk to Rick Hemmingway tomorrow about how to best go forward. Now we just need to see what commitment the BOD will make to this program?
David

[Ed Blake]

At best, most kids view old SxS shotguns as novelties. I am a Scoutmaster with a troop here in Richmond and we take the boys out a couple times a year to shoot clays. This is in addition to the shooting merit badges at scout camp in the summer. I always bring a couple Parkers with low pressure 7/8 oz handloads, as well as blackpowder for a #1 frame hammergun. They LOVE it. However, in the final analysis they opt for the Benelli or some other modern contrivance because these things are convenient, can shoot off the shelf shells, and their friends and fathers have them. Plus, any kid who is serious in the sport wants a O/U. The care and proper feeding of a vintage gun takes time and effort, something their fathers can do but they cannot. Kids have numerous distractions nowadays. We see scout membership falling because of the myriad of sports and other activities dividing their time. These are facts. Sorry to be a downer, but this is my experience. Your mileage may differ. I think the PGCA should support existing efforts like Bruce noted. Special efforts to get kids shooting at events like the Southern are great, but that only happens when fathers/grandfathers are involved. Edward and I will be at the Southern. He's 18 now and first shot at the Southern when he was 12. I don't know how many more he will be able to attend with college, sports, etc. getting in the way. I'm hoping he will stick with it. If you ask him to choose between his Benelli and his 32" #2 frame DH 20 he would have to think about it.

[Bruce Day]

Perhaps people could make contributions to the Parker Gun Foundation, a 501 c 3 organization, the contributions would be tax deductible, and the Foundation could fund the shooting activity.

[David Dwyer]

My goal is to raise $5,000 and challenge the BOD to match it. I have raised 2,500 so far, so If you want to match my initial $500 let me know. Ed, Bruce, I hear you but we can make this work.
David

[John Campbell]

To paraphrase Edmund Burke:

"All that is necessary for the double gun to fade is that good men do nothing."

[Larry Frey]

This thread has been interesting and after over a year of trying to get someone willing to become involved in promoting youth shooting I'm glad to see its being discussed. Even though as one person pointed out we are a Collector Organization, we are all aware that if a person is not introduced to guns and shooting at an early age they likely will never develop an interest in Classic Guns later on. I hunted and shot as a youth but never owned a SxS until about 12 years ago and now should probably be in some sort of therapy group. The point is I didn't need to be shooting a Parker at age 12 or win a free gun at 13 to one day develop a huge interest in the Classics later on in life when I could actually afford such things.

The PGCA as Bruce pointed out has made considerable donations to some very well developed youth shooting programs that already had the infrastructure in place to reach many young people. We felt that this would get us the most bang for our buck and we have continued that effort by donating along with the LCSCA the proceeds from the Challenge Cup the last few years. I believe these efforts should continue but that with the help of our membership our efforts could be expanded.

Like any program there needs to be one person to act as a point of contact. Even if several people elect to work together someone has to step up and be the voice for the group to avoid confusion. I believe we could all work together to come up with some guidelines where by the PGCA could offer some type of support to qualifying existing or new youth events at the local level anywhere in the US. A budget would need to be set and possibly a means to fund it, but that will need to be determined once a plan is in place.

Obviously we've only heard from around 25 of our 1400 members but I believe if we get the right people in place and a good action plan this could be something we could all be proud of.

[Bruce Day]

I want tax deductible donations if I am to donate personally.

I also want something with broad scope. Donating personal money for a shoot to help youth who happen to be children of members in ( city), ( state), would not make me comfortable. The NRA and PF have broad scope but they lack classic double gun emphasis.

If we could couple with the NRA or PF at a shotgun shoot to have the kids shoot classic double guns, would that serve our purpose? That is what I do informally with Boy Scouts. We shoot 20ga's and I bring along a little 20 Browning Superposed and/or a Parker DHE 20, fluid steel barrels so we don't get into those issues. The only guns that hold up for us are Rem 870's and the old classic guns get a lot of wows in comparison. The youth and their dads are interested.

[David Dwyer]

Larry
Mike Franzen jumped out and offered his services as "main man". Dave Fjelline has offered to be the coordinator in the west, Robin and Suponski in the NE, John Marscher and myself in the SE etc. I think we have the beginning of a good team.
David

[Jim DiSpagno]

I currently have a Parker Poster in the works that, once approved, will serve as some funding for this. A large portion of the money, after the cost etc. will be donated to this cause. The poster will have a limited run of 150 and if it is received well, I will try to do one every year, or bi-annually.

[John Marscher]

David,

My number is 843-816-5665. Lets figure out a good time to meet, possibly in the turkey woods?

[Dean Romig]

We have a very necessary ingredient now... Momentum

If that is allowed to die... well, you can guess the outcome.

[Larry Frey]

Larry
Mike Franzen jumped out and offered his services as "main man". Dave Fjelline has offered to be the coordinator in the west, Robin and Suponski in the NE, John Marscher and myself in the SE etc. I think we have the beginning of a good team.
David

David,
That's great, now that the volunteers are in place perhaps your team should develop a plan outlining what you would like to accomplish and how best to achieve that end along with some guidelines to manage the program. Then it can be presented to the Board for discussion and approval at our next meeting at the Southern on April 23rd. I have some ideas that I feel could be useful as I'm sure others do and if you or Mike would like to discuss this further please feel free to give me a call at home any evening. Larry

[Mike Franzen]

I have expressed to Dean I would be interested in acting as coordinator for this project. I think it has merit. I also think it could be done simply and with little expense to the PGCA. I think of this as a seed planting endeavor. Maybe in some of the kids that seed will grow into the overwhelming, all abiding obsession we all suffer from. I don't see this as the ultimate solution or maybe even the best solution. But it is an outreach to a generation being lost to shooting sports. We're not going to save the future of collectability but you never know who this might affect and it might change things. It's been my experience that when a kid is introduced to firearms in the right way they generally love it. When they're introduced to old doubles they are curious and fascinated. Like most of us, at their ages they are shooting auto loaders, pumps, o/u's. But just maybe when they pick up that Parker, the age old mystique will communicate with them and they'll be hooked. I Love these old guns for no apparent rational reason. I don't mind investing my time trying to share that with some kids.

[Dean Romig]

I think an exchange of ideas right here on the forum might be best in that it gets everything out in one exchange that everybody who is interested in it can read and contribute their own ideas to. Anything that is suggested or promoted here, in no way should be taken as 'adopted' by the PGCA or the Youth Program committee, but simply put out there for consideration.

Some ideas will certainly be unrealistic while others may well be worked into the draft or outline of the operation and management of a Youth Program.

[Dean Romig]

I think to commit any real money to such a Program might be premature at this point - especially for the PGCA to do so without a very viable plan in place that has been thoroughly discussed and agreed upon.

Those who have volunteered should get together and develop a working plan, with all contingencies covered, and submit it to the BOD for discussion and approval before anything else is done.

Over a year ago Allen Newell submitted an outline that his sportsman's club had developed for a Youth Archery Program. It won't work, as written, for a PGCA Youth shooting and appreciation program but it has some very good points that could be incorporated in developing a PGCA Youth Program here.

[Mills Morrison]

The Brays Island show is coming up, the week before the southern, I think. That would be a good place for David and John and I to meet. The next question is what do we want to do to advance this idea?

[David Dwyer]

Larry
I think you are getting the cart before the horse. I would like to see the board at tonight's meeting affirm their commitment to a youth program and develop a mission statement. I would also suggest you ask a BOD member to be the contact person on the BOD for us. I would think we could then have a plan together by the Spring SXS . My wife returns tonight from a week taking care of grand kids so tonight is hers.
David

[Dean Romig]

I disagree David. I believe the group of volunteers for a Youth Program should put their ideas together and develop an outline and a mission statement and then submit it to the BOD for approval. This must come from the membership, not the BOD.

[Larry Frey]

I would like to see the board at tonight's meeting affirm their commitment to a youth program and develop a mission statement. I would also suggest you ask a BOD member to be the contact person on the BOD for us. I

David,
I would suggest that if you would like to oversee the Boards meetings that you as a Life Member run for the Board in next years election. I will personally put your name in as you really need a good dose of reality.

We are too few trying to do too much and we are not going to put off final prep for the Southern, choosing a site for this years Annual Meeting, reorganizing the jobs of a departing Board member, or any of the other items already on tonight's agenda in order to start a new project. I think it was made clear earlier in this thread that the position of Youth Coordinator needs to be filled by a person or persons outside the Board.

The more member support we get the more we as a group can accomplish but there is only so much that can be heaped onto the shoulders of a few.

[Bob Roberts]

For a moment, back to the basics, as an individual — spot a kid, speak to the parents, invite a kid; spot a veteran, thank the veteran, invite a veteran.

[Bruce Day]

Will you be having events west of the Mississippi or is this just for a couple places in New England and the Carolinas? I sure hope so because a lot of PGCA money came from out here., if the PGCA funds these things.


Bob, my buddy Charlie and I are veterans. Are we invited?

[Dean Romig]

Dave Fjelline expressed an interest in doing something in California as well as the Calif. SXS Society too.

[John Allen]

I believe there will always be a demand for high quality shotguns,both for shooters and for collectors.The demand is changing though.We are fast becoming more like Europe with put and take shooting preserves and more emphasis on target shooting.As we progress in that direction,the "average" double will decrease in value.However,I have seen a huge increase in demand and prices for top of the line guns.By top of the line I mean high condition as well as high grade.The best thing for us to do is to show as many younger shooters as possible that a gun is not a tool,but an expression of your love of tradition,nature. and sportsmanship.The collectors clubs like PGCA are the perfect vehicle to pass the message on.

[Philip Peart]

Right on Dr. John!

Key words are certainly "exposure" and "the future of double guns is bright and full of possibilities." but it is our (every one of us) responsibility to expose young folks to these guns and the activities and fun that goes along with it... or the 'possibilities' will be very limited.

So right you are Dean, I myself am a 31 yr old Parker collector and appreciator and ALL 5 of my children ranging from 13yrs old to 5 yrs old can identify a Parker from 10 ft away and LOVE shooting. my 3 boys (13, 11,9) all shoot a VH 12g 2 frame happily and occasionally knock off a shot or two with my OLD 10g hammergun and my girls (7,5) love to benchrest my 20g vh for a couple shots. Waiting patiently for them to get older.
Its all in what we teach them to appreciate. My kids are 5th generation shooting Parkers.

[Dean Romig]

"5th generation shooting Parkers" is a great legacy!

Thanks for the encouragement.

[David Dwyer]

I greatly appreciate and respect the work and dedication of the BOD!! I thought the approach was to supplement, not add, to the work the BOD was already involved in. My comment about last nights BOD meeting actually came from a BOD member, not me. This discussion, unfortunately, seems to have gotten a little contentious so I am going back to enjoying life.
David

[William McClintock]

There are several ready made youth shooting groups which could be interesting target marketing groups: the NCAA college level shotgun shooting programs the 4H shotgun shooting programs. I know nothing about 4H shooting, but have been to the NCAA shooting championships at the NSCA/NSSA grounds in San Antonio.
The kids were well coached (coaches, the guys to talk to first,) the kids were very enthusiastic and pretty darn good shooters. These kids are going to be in the gunning world, hopefully for a long time. Get some of them to be Parker Ambassadors to their own age group??



At best, most kids view old SxS shotguns as novelties. I am a Scoutmaster with a troop here in Richmond and we take the boys out a couple times a year to shoot clays. This is in addition to the shooting merit badges at scout camp in the summer. I always bring a couple Parkers with low pressure 7/8 oz handloads, as well as blackpowder for a #1 frame hammergun. They LOVE it. However, in the final analysis they opt for the Benelli or some other modern contrivance because these things are convenient, can shoot off the shelf shells, and their friends and fathers have them. Plus, any kid who is serious in the sport wants a O/U. The care and proper feeding of a vintage gun takes time and effort, something their fathers can do but they cannot. Kids have numerous distractions nowadays. We see scout membership falling because of the myriad of sports and other activities dividing their time. These are facts. Sorry to be a downer, but this is my experience. Your mileage may differ. I think the PGCA should support existing efforts like Bruce noted. Special efforts to get kids shooting at events like the Southern are great, but that only happens when fathers/grandfathers are involved. Edward and I will be at the Southern. He's 18 now and first shot at the Southern when he was 12. I don't know how many more he will be able to attend with college, sports, etc. getting in the way. I'm hoping he will stick with it. If you ask him to choose between his Benelli and his 32" #2 frame DH 20 he would have to think about it.

[Gary Laudermilch]

William, you are right. There are already present structured shotgun shooting programs that are ideal places to introduce kids to the world of sxs shooting. I am most familiar with the Scholastic Clay Target Program(started by the National Shooting Sports Foundation and supported by the MidwayUSA foundation) and the NRA Youth Hunter Education Challenge program. Both are national in scope. Our local club sponsors an SCTP team and we provide logistic support to the YHEC national event held in Mansfield, PA every other year. Both are prime opportunities to sneak in sxs promotion.

The SCTP program started a collegiate level category a few years back. It is growing in leaps and bounds. Schools like Yale, Harvard, and MIT have teams among others. These are not exactly bastions of conservative shooting values and yet they are thriving. Talk about kids that will one day have the discretionary income to become a Parker collector/shooter! The opportunities exist. We just have to reach out and touch them.

[keavin nelson]

As I wandered through the Baltimore antique arms show with my son, looking for the Parkers amoung the various tables, I asked my son what he thought the average age was at the show. 63 he guessed. I wouldn't debate that. At 30 he has a great appreciation for the old doubles, and has a Parker P grade 16 ga I put together for him. He also has an AR, and other more modern guns. Appreciation for finer things only comes with access and ability to own such. I think our generation will need to work hard to draw the next from the video sticks, and black guns to the finer traditions of Parkers, Foxes and LCs. Absent that, I am not sure the value will survive.

[William McClintock]

Gary et al,

Today I went out to the National Sporting Clays & Skeet Shooting HQ in San Antonio to shoot some sporting clays with my Parker.
The SCTP Championship was going on: sporting, trap, skeet and 5 stand I believe. Colleges and universities from Harvard, Yale, Texas,to Schreiner and Connor were there.
I spent some time with Bruce Hering, who runs the South Eastern Illinois program. He has been involved in youth shotgunning for many years. A coupla years ago I spent the day out there with his team and was very interested and impressed. Bruce has several world class shots this year. One of the kids shot a 96 at the trap range yesterday. THE VERY SAME KID really went over my Parker 16 gauge DHE today and loved it. So did a number of other kids. Here is a great resource for us as lovers of classic American shotguns, especially Parkers.

Bruce, for those who don't know him has these credentials:

Bruce A. Hering; NSCA Lev III Inst.
Program Coordinator/Lead Instructor
Southeastern Illinois College
Shotgun Team Coach
2011 Division I ACUI National Champions
2011 SCTP Collegiate Champions
2012 ACUI Div II National HOA Champions
2012 SCTP Collegiate Champions
2013 ACUI Division II RU National Champions
2014 SCTP RU Collegiate National Champions

This guy knows what he is doing. He knows how things really work and how to get things done.

We talked over the idea of the PGCA getting into supporting youth shotgunning. Bruce is willing to kinda be the idea guy for this effort. He knows about everyone the leaders of this effort will need to know.

Email Bruce at : huntschool@aol and he will help.

I volunteer to help here at the San Antonio shooting center, where all the collegiate championships have been shot so far. They are now breaking into regional efforts.

Best Regards!


William, you are right. There are already present structured shotgun shooting programs that are ideal places to introduce kids to the world of sxs shooting. I am most familiar with the Scholastic Clay Target Program(started by the National Shooting Sports Foundation and supported by the MidwayUSA foundation) and the NRA Youth Hunter Education Challenge program. Both are national in scope. Our local club sponsors an SCTP team and we provide logistic support to the YHEC national event held in Mansfield, PA every other year. Both are prime opportunities to sneak in sxs promotion.

The SCTP program started a collegiate level category a few years back. It is growing in leaps and bounds. Schools like Yale, Harvard, and MIT have teams among others. These are not exactly bastions of conservative shooting values and yet they are thriving. Talk about kids that will one day have the discretionary income to become a Parker collector/shooter! The opportunities exist. We just have to reach out and touch them.

[John Campbell]

... Appreciation for finer things only comes with access and ability to own such. I think our generation will need to work hard to draw the next from the video sticks, and black guns to the finer traditions of Parkers, Foxes and LCs.

Keavin has swerved into a worthy thought here. But I do not necessarily agree that you must afford a good double to appreciate its character.

What helps a great deal in the realm of the double gun is an awareness that these things are not just guns. They are a unique confluence of form, function, craft and art. Their worth is intrinsic, not simply practical. The fine ones have a soul. If you doubt that, check the For Sale section of this forum and take a look at the Mortimer offered there.

This is what allows the SxS double gun to stand apart from a Remington 1100. Or even a Citori.

Ergo, the character and sophistication of a double gun must be presented to and appreciated by the young shooter as well.

Easy to say. I know...

[Ed Blake]

Get them started on a Remington 1100. If they like it the SxS will come in time.

[Gary Laudermilch]

It is up to each and every one of us to do what we can to keep the future bright - for the shooting sports and, closer to home, the PGCA.

Yep, start them on something as mundane as an 1100 and take what opportunities you get to plant the seeds that will be tomorrows harvest. Most of us will be long gone when that harvest is ripe but one thing for sure, without planting the seeds today there will be no harvest tomorrow.

[Bruce Day]

Local BSA camp today. A few advanced shot gunners shooting a Parker 20ga. We do this most spring weekends.

Most camps have a spring shooting program that this can be done in for those interested in teaching and working with youth.

[Carl Erickson Jr]

Very interesting thread!. My suggestions:
Get qualified as an instructor or coach and then work with local scouts or similar organizations to give youth an introduction to firearms. Sitting around and complaining about the lack of youth in our shooting sports does nothing. Does your club have a junior program?
Get your club to put a priority on junior shooting as opposed to member shooting. If only the members shoot then our shooting sports will disappear due to lack of new blood
Have youth (anyone under 40) join us at shoots. When the average age is 63 "youth" is 40 and under. The goal should be safe fun shooting. Encourage younger family members to attend sxs shoots. The best time that my son ever had shooting was at an after Christmas collector shoot. They do not need a $2000 gun. A well used safe Trojan or Field grade is more than adequate. Encourage them to bring their friends. One of the best time that I have had shooting was at a shoot with my son and some of his friends (aged 25-30). I had to loan shooters to the crew but we all had a blast. While I don't think that any of them will be buying a collector grade sxs soon I can easily see them with a lower grade classic gun.

[Kerilynn Viccione]

I'll give my 2 cents (which is probably an inflated value) to this interesting topic. Maybe a bit of a different perspective -

I am a teacher of elementary school and the mother of 2 teenage boys. I find that children are easily interested in things we show enthusiasm for on their level. I love history, and as such, I teach history to my students with the same love and appreciation that I feel. I have rarely had a student that doesn't embrace this sentiment.

Antique firearms, whether of little value or invaluable are not a separate category of our history. To hold an heirloom, relic, or artifact connects us to our past. To understand what our ancestors used them for gives us insight to ourselves. Survival, freedom, sport- this is our identity as a culture.

Children identify with the past when they can make personal connections. Unfortunately, all firearms have been grouped together in a negative light as of late.
I believe we should speak about these treasures with the reverence we hold for them in a context that commands respect- one that includes identifying who we are today tied to the history of our ancestors -how they lived, what they ate, what tools they used, how they protected their families...it all connects to these guns. Each is unique in its historical value, even if only for the story it tells.

Kerilynn

[Dean Romig]

Very well said Kerilynn. Thanks for putting into words what a lot of us feel and believe.

[John Campbell]

Ms. Viccione:
Your thoughts and insights are not puffery. They are pure wisdom! And exceedingly valuable.

Parker guns as well as other doubles are tangible, shootable and teachable connections to the past and its connection to our world today. They carry a story of America. And the world.

This is engaging to the young mind. And why I've advocated the low-to-no emphasis on scores and competition. The human value and historic relevance of the double gun is what should be transferred to the young.

But you know all that. And more. Thank you for your learned insights on this topic. Bravo!