BH 87337 what to do with it??

[Brian Hornacek]

I bought a bunch of parker parts from a gentleman this weekend and in the rubble was BH 87337.

This poor old fella has seen better days leaving the factory as an original straight grip - 28" - top lever - hammerless - Damascus gun. I got all the important stuff with it so now I just have to figure out what to do. The wood can be saved and the stock has an original pad with widows peak/nib. On the shield it is inscribed "Paratus Sum" Latin for "I AM Ready" or "To Be Prepared" with a Griffin and banner. The receiver and trigger guard can be welded and fixed I think. The forearm latch and tip may or may not need replaced. The barrel looks like it was used to stir a pot of salt water soup. Trigger plate has 3 stags on it, the receiver has pointers on the left and setters on the left. How hard will it be to find Damascus barrels in 28"? What do you think????

I am inclined to think that any B grade should be saved? Maybe $3K to $4K as a budget?

[Brian Dudley]

What a find Brian! But... A lot of work!
The best thing you have going for it is that it is a legit grade 5 and that the stock is salvageable, by the looks of it.

The barrels are toast though which is too bad. But, they are standard Damascus (single D). Not fine Damascus (double D). So, finding a set of replacement barrels will be a lot easier.

The significant pitting can be remedied with some work, but all the metal work would mean needing to recut most all the engraving, from scratch likely.

Your budget question of $3k to $4k would likely be all or mostly spent on engraving.

[greg conomos]

That gun looks very similar in terms of engraving to my BH 87712, not surprising I guess since they are so close. Mine has steel barrels though!

[Dean Romig]

What kind of steel Greg? That serial number is too early for Acme or Titanic, unless it was sent back during the days of the 'dangerous Damascus' scare for replacement fluid steel barrels.

[John Campbell]

There is a potential for your original barrels to be sleeved with fluid tubes. This would help preserve the fitting, serial numbers, etc. They would, however, need to be blacked. It isn't cheap, but your whole project is not a budget minded notion. The man for sleeving is Kirk Merrington.

[Brian Dudley]

I personally would never consider sleeving a BH just for the reason of keeping serial numbers. A set of Damascus barrels could be fitted well enough and numbers re-stamped to where they would appear as original.

[greg conomos]

Mine shows to be the first fitted with steel barrels. It's too far back in the safe for me to drag it out right now but I think they are Titanic steel.

The more I look at the pics above, it is very similar. The stock especially.

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, 87712 is an early Titanic gun.

[Craig Larter]

Unfortunately it looks like a money pit to me if full restoration was considered---what a shame. I guess I would at a max find a new set of barrels and forend iron put it back together and enjoy it for what it is. Now if it was a Fox-----:corn:

[Bill Murphy]

Greg, is your BH the one with the extra long forend that was on the market a few years ago?

[Fred Verry]

Brian, first I would try to determine if the gun has a significant documentable provenance. Does it warrant the cost of a complete restoration?

If you want to shoot it, clean up the barrels and see if they are structurally sound. The least expensive approach is a "drop in" 20 ga. tube set, followed by used replacement barrels. Even if you used the existing barrels for a monoblock donor, I expect the cost of sleeving, blueing and forearm fitting would be north of $2K.

If you do not want to shoot it, I would not clean it up at all. I would reassemble it as is and clear coat the metal surfaces to prevent further oxidation and hang it in a prominent place. You might consider ultrasonically cleaning the engraved parts before reassembling. It is a nice conversation starter.

[Brian Hornacek]

I definitely am going to shoot it. At a min I will get another set of Damascus 28" barrels and get it working. The end of the barrel crumbled in my hands but actually would be quite funny showing up at the range with tube inserts in them and shooting it. I am sure I would get quite a look!

If anyone has 28" Damascus barrels I am in the market. I will send off for the letter today.

[Ray Masciarella]

When you get the letter, I think it will show the stocks were factory replaced at one time.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Tough decision, but i think, like Craig, that I would take it slow, and do what I could to get it into shootable condition first. And if time and pocketbook allow, have engraving done later. I have a friend with a whole lot of old SXS barrels and will ask him if by any chance he would have any Parker 12ga damascus, or steel barrels that might fit a 2 frame
gun--probably not, but I will ask.

[Fred Verry]

Brian, how much fell off. You can get tube sets in shorter lengths. They even build them for snub nose guns. :rotf: Seriously, I will keep a lookout for those Dam(n)? 2 frame 28" barrels.

[greg conomos]

Bill - no, my gun has a normal splinter forend. This is the gun I bought from Cabela's some years ago that HD Kirkover had bought new. It letters as the first steel barreled B grade as I recall.

Don't want to hijack this thread but here are a couple pics of 87712. It's a #2 12/30 straight grip. I ha ve a little bit of a hard time shooting it as the stock is smooth enough that it's a little tougher to hold onto than I like.

I should add that I believe it is the first made with 'Parker' steel barrels and that some had been made earlier with Whitworth barrels.

[Bill Murphy]

Wow!

[Daryl Corona]

Absolutely stunning!

[Russ Jackson]

Greg ,What a Wonderful Gun !!!!!!!!! I wonder what the engravers were thinking ,Deer "Stag " on a shotgun ,My BH Has the same ,wish mine was a beautiful Setter and a couple of Grouse !!!!!!!!!!

[Richard Flanders]

Looks fine to me! Put'er together and shoot it!!! :)

[Carvel Whaley]

Brian, I have a set of 2 frame 30 in barrels if that would be anything you would be interested in. Call if you are. 804-761-6046. Carvel

[Brian Hornacek]

I don't know????? the more I look at these barrels maybe they can be saved with some micro welding....just kidding!:knowbetter:

Carvel....... I will call you tomorrow on the barrels, I don't like to bother people after 9pm.

The new letter requester widget is pretty darn nice! Even I figured it out!

[Larry Stalnaker]

Outstanding find!!!

Whatever you decide to do, you have a very neat piece of history. If I were you, I think I would spend as much as I could afford in stages to bring it back to it's original beauty.

PopPop

[Alfred Greeson]

I would take time and build it. What a find and just imagine when it is finished! To me it is a piece of history and a once in a lifetime chance to own such a beauty even though it will cost. Compare it's value when finished to what a similar gun would cost on the market if one was available. If replacement cost of a similar gun is much more than the restoration cost, I would say it is a worthwhile project, provided the finished gun would have the value to justify the project. I know you guys know what those numbers would be, what do you think? Please share your thoughts, I would love to know what you think for all of us who can only dream of owning such a piece.

[Mills Morrison]

I would get some replacement barrels and just clean up the rest of the gun. It deserves to be brought back to shooting condition.

[Erick Dorr]

Brian, My reaction to this thread when I read it was what a find. I didn't have much emotion except a good laugh when I saw your " I think I can bring back the barrels with microwelding" photo.
However, last night I had several horrible nightmares that my Parkers had developed horrible bulging spongecake rust under the bluing that would come out in wet gobs.
Good luck with your project.
Erick

[Mills Morrison]

If you were in the Deep South, you could try duct tape.

[Gerald McPherson]

I would do that barrel like a pups tail. Take a little off at a time until I thought it looked good.

[wayne goerres]

I have seen some barrels that were pretty bad before but I beleave those are the worst I have ever seen. Even duct tape won't help. What a shame.

[Bob Hardison]

Mills: I saw a photo in one of Dean's post where he has a set of barrels taped. The New England folks are learning from us southern boys:rolleyes: Bob

[Mills Morrison]

"Duct tape won't fix that" Said no Southerner ever.

I have an E Grade lifter with a terribly cracked stock that was fixed by duct tape. It is not too pretty, but will do until I get some other projects out of the way.

I am probably going to use Dean's method on my 8 gauge this weekend. The barrels on it are shiny and big

[Bill Murphy]

Donor guns are out there. I bought about three before I found a suitable set of barrels for my #3 frame World's Fair BH 10. I fell in love with every gun I bought and didn't return any of them, even though the barrels were not suitable. Who can resist "another #3 frame"? However, one gun had the barrels that fit and were in great condition. Now I will have two back ends that will work with the donor barrels. They will also work with the original 18" barrels, which I may have sleeved, maybe to 40". My retirement checks go directly to project guns. Nothing left over.

[wayne goerres]

I think even Charlie Cleavland would recommend Hose clamps, sheet metal and perhaps a little bailing wire.

[Russ Jackson]

I think she's a Diamond in the rough ! All good suggestions so far ,If it were mine ,I would start cleaning the best parts , find a good set of barrels have them fit and think I had just STRUCK GOLD !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Alfred Greeson]

In defense of Southerners, I seem to recall seeing a Parker with a fairly new radiator clamp on it pictured on this forum and I immediately thought, "These guys are all right, you see that on better guns down south all the time!", and I thought duct tape was recognized as a standard repair method by the PGCA even though bailing wire works better in some cases.

[Russ Jackson]

UhUH HUM I Beg Your Pardon but , Duct Tape is only considered to be the Proper repair on a Parker Brother's shotgun , providing it is an Expensive Roll of Duct Tape ,Applied by an even More Expensive Gun Smith :rotf:

[Brian Hornacek]

Well I found solid steel at 21 1/2" so I have rare Wells Fargo BH coach gun now. At 22" I could push a screwdriver through the barrel.

I put all the parts back in the receiver and it locks up tight, cocks and fires. All the internal parts that have serial numbers were with the parts I received. If you have never been inside a B (I had not) everything is polished and finished to perfection, very nice! After a very close inspection the gun is not that bad!!!! and it is going to get brought back to its glory.
The bolsters need welded but the transition to the sides and tang will allow you to blend it.
The hinge pin area on the left needs welding and can be blended with the recess.
The upper tang needs welded and it can be blended.
The forearm iron and release would best be replaced and engraving duplicated.
The trigger guard needs welded and blended.
The face of the receiver will take somebody that can machine the repairs back to flat perfection. I think that will be a challenge.
The trigger plate is in great shape.

All in, it will be cheaper than any B on the shelf and a gun saved. Only 38 B's in 28" Damascus barrels is cool enough, besides it was probably a gift from the Pittsburg Pirates to Honus Wagner in his second season that will be brought out in the factory letter.

The toughest part of the project will be the 1 years in process. I will get the wood and barrel straightened out first and then get the receiver done later.
Any leads on barrels would be greatly appreciated!

[Richard Flanders]

Bravo Brian! Good on you and good luck with the project. I handled a very vintage pin fire double gun this past fall. The muzzle on one barrel had thinned so much from shooting that it had an ~3/16" hole in it.... and they just kept on shooting it! The barrels were never cut. The owner even has a few shells for it.

[Mills Morrison]

Good job Brian! I would use the barrel situation as an excuse to get some longer barrels for it. 30" or 32"

[Alfred Greeson]

Good for you on building it. If you end up with a nice set of short barrels and a good set of donor barrels, you will have a great BH. Saving one of that quality is a complement to every shooter who loves a side by side. Got to be one of the most worthwhile projects that you will ever undertake, what else are we here for anyway. Find the right guy who can do the metal work and is as excited about saving that gun as you are and away you go! Congrats on a great find, that gun has been waiting for years for you to come along. As one old collector said when asked why we love the old guns, he replied, "They harbor old men's souls", they aren't just old guns.

[Brian Hornacek]

Well the letter came today and it has great detail but it is not a lost relic from a famous individual. The gun was ordered by F.S. McClure who was the manager of the Robert Ward & Co, (Imperial Cannery) in Vancouver BC. Robert Ward & Co was a turn of the century fish cannery in the Vancouver area owned by British interests. Nothing to exciting on Mr. McClure but everything looks 100% original. Couple nice details in the letter:
Silvers rubber butt
Two Lyman sights
2 3/4" chamber
Good stock measurement detail
4 blade Damascus noted.

Still looking for some 28" Damascus barrels

Best regards.

[greg conomos]

Here's the letter on 87712. Note the date of Dec 24 1897....just the next month (and the day before Christmas).

It's also interesting how Parker did a lot of repair work for free for the original owner but it seems like by the time the second owner sent it in they had had enough and charged him!

[greg conomos]

Kirkover was an outdoorsman, dog enthusiast, Republican, and a big shooter....

[Brian Hornacek]

Step one get the wood fixed......thank you Chris Dawe.

[Rick Losey]

WOW

great work Chris

[Eric Estes]

Did you ever find barrels for it Brian? Fantastic first step!

[Phillip Carr]

One heck of a start, Incredible !!!!

[Brian Hornacek]

Did you ever find barrels for it Brian? Fantastic first step!

I have a set of D3 and Brad B has something put aside for me as well. This particular gun was specific in the letter having 4 blade.

I forgot to mention if you look on the original picture there was a heck of a splinter out of the tang and it had a HUGE sling swivel stud big enough to chain your dog to. Chris did a bang up job on the splinter and delicately inlaid a diamond in the wood using the checkering lines to hide it for the stud .......whoa buddy it is real nice work!

[Eric Estes]

Cant wait to see it brought back to its full glory. Kudos to you for saving it. It found the right person.

[Chris Travinski]

I'm still biting my nails waiting to see that CHE 20 gauge again!!

[Brian Hornacek]

I'm still biting my nails waiting to see that CHE 20 gauge again!!

Nothing money won't fix and a whole lot a time.............

[Bill Murphy]

When I asked about the B with extra long forend, I was thinking about 88,220, the first Parker made with Vulcan barrels, as I recall. The stock book gives it a V code, but it was actually a V5. It was a wonderful gun that I should have bought.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, is that the Grade 5 that Stephen Cobb owns or owned with VH engraving?





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[Richard Flanders]

Lordy! That barrel rust reminds me of stuff I've seen dragged out of a pile of straw and cow poo.

[Bill Murphy]

No, Dean, Steve's gun has "no engraving" like my CH Grade. The V5 is a full house BH, with engraving and fine furniture, and fitted with the first set of Vulcan Steel barrels fitted to a gun. When that gun was made, there were no VH guns. The long forend is very "Becker like". The gun appeared in Maryland, for sale, several years ago, and I don't know who bought it.

[Dean Romig]

I believe I remember someone posting pictures of that gun, or at least the mounted forend, on the old forum and there may possibly have been a picture of it in Parker Pages long ago.






.

[Bill Murphy]

It was one neat gun. I was either scared off by the price or the lack of a factory (PGCA) letter.

[Russ Jackson]

It was one neat gun. I was either scared off by the price or the lack of a factory (PGCA) letter.

Sometimes the one doesn't seem too far fetched as long as you have the other ,and all is right !

[edgarspencer]

The 1897- 1898 period must have had all the employees talking about what management was up to, because of all the 'Firsts' in fairly quick succession.
When I acquired 88490, a Titanic barreled CH, I went looking through the book at where it fell in the history of 'steel' barrels, Titanic barrels (compared to the the earlier introduction of the Whitworth barreled AA grades.)
86736 was the first appearance of Titanic barrels, a DH I believe.
86817 was the first steel barreled CH, also Titanic steel, and 87712 was the first steel BH, again, Titanic steel.
I saw that 88220 was the first use of Vulcan steel barrels, but didn't know it was a BH. A short while later, Parker fitted Vulcan steel barrels to a CH, 88725,
The first steel barreled 20 gauge was 88402, a DH, but what really caught my eye was 89539, what may be the first 24" barreled gun, and a DH 20 gauge, no less.
This got me thinking what a great grouse gun that must have been, and no sooner did I think that, I found a 24" DHE 20 gauge. Sure, it began life as a 30 inch gun, but cylinder bores is about right for the north woods of Maine. Several plump birds would attest to that if they could.

[Phillip Carr]

I may be mistaken but I understood the 1st gun with Vulcan steel barrels was a DH S/N 82225. I own 82226 delivered April 18 1896 and it letters and has Vulcan steel barrels. Originally delivered with no safety, an absolutely knock out piece of wood with a half pistol grip.

[Bill Murphy]

Thanks, Phil. I actually had all of those earlier Vulcan barrelled guns highlighted in my Serialization Book.

[Paweł Janusz]

I can refinish this gun for you to your preferences , or I will have to see it to tell about restoring it, of course everything can be restored just a matter of time and input. Notice I'm talking about two different approach to your firearm: renew or restore.

[Brian Dudley]

I have to ask... is this method of spamming every thread on this forum generating any success for you. ???

[Paweł Janusz]

I don't understand, I'm a gunsmith who specialize for years in old traditional ways of refinishing new custom or and old firearms, this guy's have a question and here is my answer as I provide services successful to many customers, I can provide references, I'm sorry that you took it wrong and offensive calling me spam. than you

[Dean Romig]

Mr. Janusz,
Where is your gun smithing business located?
Perhaps if you came to some of the venues and events we all attend and introduce yourself members here would get to know you. It would be very beneficial to you if you could bring several examples of the work you have done.
Other gunsmiths rent a table at these events for the very reason to display the best examples of their work. Some gunsmiths like Brian Dudley bring several guns to show off his skill and I'm quite sure he has gained a lot of new business by doing this.






.

[Paweł Janusz]

My name is Pawel Janusz, I have been a member for almost a year, in business 25 years, I'm located in ingleside Illinois and moving soon to excelsior springs missouri. I'm Ffl holder. Over the years I had took variety of work and mastered ways of old traditional refinishing methods successful offering it to a huge growing group of customers that are find me from recommendation. My background reaches also fluent operation of manual and cnc manufacturing equipment, g-code programming and most important production process of manufacturing precision and decorative parts. I build couple picture albums in my profile and like to invite everyone to look at. I will be placing soon another album dedicated to Parker D grade with Damascus bbl that I recently refinished along with other Parkers, except this one did turn the nicest as it was never open, file, or sand before, just natural wear, dents and glamorous broken stock at grip area. Everyone is welcome to visit my Web at www.pjgunmaker.com, my tel.: 224.595.4463, e-mail: myarkebuz@yahoo.com

[Rick Losey]

Pawel

I hesitate to get in the middle of this - but here goes -please take this as an attempt to explain and help

from what i have seen from the pictures, you do nice work. But - you have made 62 posts up to this point- i could find about 6 or so that were a genuine contribution to a discussion about a gun or other topic.

such as this one http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=191647#post191647

but the rest are just asking for business - such as in these threads

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=205967#post205967

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18674


there are several very good craftsman on the board - if you watch, you will notice that they offer advice - post "how-to"s for common issues and join in conversations - I cannot ever remember them jumping in to ask posters for their business instead. If someone else recommends them - the response is generally to go to PMs for the conversation

you would seem to have a lot of knowledge - please join in and share it - advertise in shooting magazines, come to the events and grow your business that way.

just my opinion

[Paweł Janusz]

yes I do agree, the reason is I want to let people know about my work since I'm moving my business to Missouri and will have more time to do restoration work, I don't read much as I'm very busy working, so i just catch little and let people know i exist and yes junk makers do get on my nerves and i promise to control my self. lol, Yes I do know what I do and I'm so confident that I warranty all my work, serious references are available but my work speak for his self the best. Once I move I like to dedicate more time to attend discussion so it don't look like I'm there only for business, sorry.