fox or parker

[tony williamson]

Hi i am new so. please bear with me. Would a 20 gauge sterlingworth be equivocal to a 16 gauge gh damascus del greco parker on a 0 frame....

[Dean Romig]

"Equivocal" in what regard?

[tony williamson]

Only in monetary terms right now. The parker is a grades gun but sterlingworths are high here in the south.

[Kenny Graft]

A nice gh grade 16 0 frame will cost at least double a sterlingworth of same condition if not 3 times! I collect both makers...sweet....SXS ohio.

[Francis Morin]

Interesting questions. I bought a AH Fox 20 Sterlingworth last Fall in fine condition; 26" IC/M, std DT and extractors, original stock and blueing, 55% case coloring, very fine gun indeed. It was made in Utica NY. Many Fox collectors seem to prefer the Phila. mfg. Fox guns, just as some Parker collectors prefer Meridian mfg. over the later Ilion, NY Parkers.

You might check the Fox Collectors Assn. Forum for their opinions. The Sterlingworth has the same basic receiver shape as do the "graded" Fox guns. If you consider the Sterlingworth and the Parker Trojan to be the basic Field grades respectively, of course the Trojan differs cosmetically from the "graded" Parkers.

Mechanically they are both quality boxlocks with coil mainsprings and reliable in function to the nth. degree. The Fox, with the LC Smith and Ithaca NID, have the same basic rotary top bolt lock, the Parker an underbolt.

A few months ago I bought a Parker perhaps similar to the GH 16 you are looking at. The only double I have purchased from a gun shop in many years. The store specializes Mr. Zumbo's "EBR's" and didn't know Parkers- it was described as a Trojan 16 with unsafe barrels and I picked it up for even 4 figures OTD. It is a sweet PH on the O frame with 26" Twist barrels, made in 1908 (lettered by PGCA) and in balance, handles as sweetly as the 20 Fox, which cost me 40% more.

The ammo cost is a "trade-off". I order RST 2.5" 16 7/8 No. 8 from PGCA member Morris Baker for the PH- after I had Brad Bachelder OK it for barrel wall thickness- something you should do first with ANY Damascus barreled shotgun.

If you go for the 20 Fox, you might want to get the chamber length checked as well. I like the RST 2.5" loads, you will too. As far as potential resale value of either fine gun you mentioned, sorry- Warren Buffett doesn't call me for advice- of course, he doesn't call E.F. Hutton either!

[Dave Noreen]

Trojan vs Sterlingworth -- Opinions being like a------s and everyone has one, I will risk venturing mine.
As to workmanship, I'd say that when the Sterlingworth came out in 1910 as a $25 gun its workmanship was really quite good. The Trojan when it came out a couple of years later at $27.50 was also of good quality. After WW-I the prices went up steeply and by 1919 the Sterlingworth had a list price of $55. Fox then cut the price to $48 in 1922 then to $36.50 in 1926 and of course workmanship and wood quality suffered. While Parker did eliminate the rib extension on the Trojan overall quality stayed high and so did the price with a price of $51.50 in 1927 and $55 by 1929.

A Fox unless everything is just right can sometimes be hard to open because of firing pin points sticking in primers. Parkers with rebounding hammers don't have this fault. Trojans in 12-gauge are built on the #2 frame and tend to be heavy. It is fairly easy to find 30-inch 12-gauge Sterlingworths right at 7 pounds and shorter barrels a bit under. Similarly I believe small bore Sterlingworths tend to run lighter than Trojans. Sterlingworths were offered in 26-, 28-, 30-, and 32-inch barrels in all three gauges while Trojans had a more limited selection of barrel lengths -- 30-, 28, and 26- inch in 12-gauge and only 28- and 26-inch in the small bores. There should also be many more Sterlingworths out there to choose from as Fox made about 111,000 in 12-gauge, 28,000 in 16-gauge and 21,000 in 20-gauge, as to about 33,000 total Trojans by the Brothers P. Also, Sterlingworths were available with ejectors. Sterlingworths were offered with single triggers from 1914 on, while the single trigger was only offered on the Trojan right at the end of production. They are not often seen on either of these entry-level guns.

[Francis Morin]

[quote=Dave Noreen;15535]Trojan vs Sterlingworth -- Opinions being like a------s and everyone has one, I will risk venturing mine.
As to workmanship, I'd say that when the Sterlingworth came out in 1910 as a $25 gun its workmanship was really quite good. The Trojan when it came out a couple of years later at $27.50 was also of good quality. After WW-I the prices went up steeply and by 1919 the Sterlingworth had a list price of $55. Fox then cut the price to $48 in 1922 then to $36.50 in 1926 and of course workmanship and wood quality suffered. While Parker did eliminate the rib extension on the Trojan overall quality stayed high and so did the price with a price of $51.50 in 1927 and $55 by 1929.

A Fox unless everything is just right can sometimes be hard to open because of firing pin points sticking in primers. Parkers with rebounding hammers don't have this fault. Trojans in 12-gauge are built on the #2 frame and tend to be heavy. It is fairly easy to find 30-inch 12-gauge Sterlingworths right at 7 pounds and shorter barrels a bit under. Similarly I believe small bore Sterlingworths tend to run lighter than Trojans. Sterlingworths were offered in 26-, 28-, 30-, and 32-inch barrels in all three gauges while Trojans had a more limited selection of barrel lengths -- 30-, 28, and 26- inch in 12-gauge and only 28- and 26-inch in the small bores. There should also be many more Sterlingworths out there to choose from as Fox made about 111,000 in 12-gauge, 28,000 in 16-gauge and 21,000 in 20-gauge, as to about 33,000 total Trojans by the Brothers P. Also, Sterlingworths were available with ejectors. Sterlingworths were offered with single triggers from 1914 on, while the single trigger was only offered on the Trojan right at the end of production. They are not often seen on either of these entry-level guns.[

Thanks Dave. Maybe some day I'll have a Aeolian harp, for now, have to settle for a few Martin HD acoustics. I didn't know there were more Sterlingworths made than Parker Trojans, now, I do. A good friend has a later series Trojan (1938) 20 bore with 28 barrels and a single non-selective trigger. grouse and woodcock tremble when he and his GSP enter the coverts in late Oct--as well they should.

Perhaps cost factors caused Parker's deletion of the doll's head extension on the Trojan. My 20 Fox was made it Utica as marked on the barrels, but the wood, checkering and workmanship was like (in my eyes anyway) to a friend's Phila. Sterlingworth 16 bore- weight and balance too. Very nice guns indeed. McIntosh mentioned the issue of non-rebounding hammers re: Fox guns-a question of "timing" perhaps??:bigbye:

[tony williamson]

the gh gun has beautiful grade 4 damascus, the del greco colors were done years ago because they are about 90 %, subdued just enough to look good. they look original! but i don't think they are. engraving is sharp and gun is on an 0 frame with 30 inch barrels. i'll post a pic as soon as i figure out how. the fox is a 26 inch barrel brush gun with about 50 % case, clean as a pin. no scatches or gouges and original. here in n.c., sterlingworths are high as a kite. i guess i know foxes a little better because i have seen so many, i've not not seen parkers for sale much around here. people are keeping them i guess. but you can't find a little twenty fox for less than 2500 if its in good shape.

[tony williamson]

i been a picker for 38 years..a martin hd 28 l.e. 1984, a martin hd28v, two stelling banjos, a sunflower and a staghorn, and a weber yellowstone honey tortoise mandolin for my bluegrass stuff. those are my two big passions. and my kids don't give a tinkers cuss for any of it. figures.

[tony williamson]

how do i get a picture on here?

[Robin Lewis]

click on FAQ in this forum and enter "picture" in the search box. That should tell you what you need to know.

[Francis Morin]

[quote=tony williamson;15540]the gh gun has beautiful grade 4 damascus, the del greco colors were done years ago because they are about 90 %, subdued just enough to look good. they look original! but i don't think they are. engraving is sharp and gun is on an 0 frame with 30 inch barrels. i'll post a pic as soon as i figure out how. the fox is a 26 inch barrel brush gun with about 50 % case, clean as a pin. no scatches or gouges and original. here in n.c., sterlingworths are high as a kite. i guess i know foxes a little better because i have seen so many, i've not not seen parkers for sale much around here. people are keeping them i guess. but you can't find a little twenty fox for less than 2500 if its in good shape.

Hate to break your heart, but I paid $1000 even for the PH 16 and $1350 to a private party for the 20 Sterlingworth- both have original uncut 26" barrels too. I see a good number of 12 Sterlingworths for sale up here, the 16 and 20 bores are harder to find, and will command a higher price too!:bigbye:

[Francis Morin]

[quote=tony williamson;15541]i been a picker for 38 years..a martin hd 28 l.e. 1984, a martin hd28v, two stelling banjos, a sunflower and a staghorn, and a weber yellowstone honey tortoise mandolin for my bluegrass stuff. those are my two big passions. and my kids don't give a tinkers cuss for any of it. figures.

Great. Bet you know what a "harp" means to blues players, even Janis knew when she pulled her "harpoon" from that bandana. I have a 1964 HD-35 and a 1971 HD-28 and follow Doc Watson, the late Randall Hilton and of course, Tony Rice. I also have a Scheerhorn square neck Dobro in open G tuning and a Taylor 830 series acoustic with cut-away and Fishman pickup, tuning in open D for electric slide blues work- Elmore James and Bonnie Raitt are my "gurus" on slide.

I bought my two oldest grandchildren Baby Taylors for Christmas so they can "practice" with Grandpaw- The Gibson Sunflower and also the Sunburst are great "axes" too, I'm looking at one now- 1962 Kalamazoo mfg.:bigbye:

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Tony,

I'd be careful if somebody is saying it's DelGrego work. I've heard for years that they wouldn't touch a damascus gun due to what they called "liability reasons".

Morin,

Focus!!!

Destry

[tony williamson]

i'll try to post some pics , maybe someone can recognize the case color.

[C Roger Giles]

The old hinge pin trick appears again

Rog

[tony williamson]

well, i found the album page and put my old gh on there. wow what guns on there! never do see that kind of stuff. i'm just bewildered. anybody recognize the case colors on the gun? i really appreciate all the info from everyone.