Rookie Mistake

[bruce a lyons]

Recently purchased an ultra sonic cleaner from a large concern. Mixed up a batch of Simple Green and water 50/50. Inserted a Parker frame and 2 sidelocks from an English hammer gun. Ran 2 cycles of 180 seconds with heat. Let them soak awhile, then pulled and scrubbed with toothbrush. Did one more 180 second cycle with heat and let them soak for the night. Sometime during the night I think I heard a loud snap. Next morning gave one more 180 second bath. When I pulled parts out Parker frame looked great but both hammer springs were broken on the English gun. What happened? Will attempt pictures but have new computer.

[Rick Losey]

wow - that is heart breaking

when you say heat - how much

[Dean Romig]

I think the harmonic vibration waves did it, not the heat.

[Brian Dudley]

Hard to say exactly what caused it. Interesting though...

I normally just use my ultra sonic on stripped frames in order to get the crud out of the nooks and crannies.

[Rick Losey]

It looks like the springs were under tension Full cock?

I wonder if that caused the stress

[Jerry Harlow]

I had a similar experience with the lock off of a reproduction 1861 Springfield Rifled Musket. It was not cocked.

I put the rusty lock in a room-temperature solution of Brownells Steel White, mostly water after it is mixed. The solution cleaned all of the rust, but the spring that had been used a thousand times just snapped in half! I'll never do that again, and I don't know why it did.

[bruce a lyons]

Thanks all. Hammers were cocked. Heat is either on or off. I may have done one more cycle and remember the liquid being quite warm, but could still stick my hand in it. Glad it was not my WC Scott. Have a lazer thermometer and will monitor furture experiments.

[Scott Smith]

I had a gunsmith put a model 12 trigger assembly in an ulra-sonic cleaner. The purpose was to remove built up dirt, which it did. It also removed the red paint on the safety button. No real "damage", but most M12 buyers check that as an indication of refinnish. Now I have to either figure out how to get the red lacquer back on, or explain what happened to any future potential buyer.

[John Campbell]

Mr. Romig may be onto the best path here. Read this month's American Rifleman story on metal stress and "stress risers" - then consider that ultrasonic cleaners can penetrate even the smallest existing stress flaws. And remember, springs under stress "open" those micro flaws...

[edgarspencer]

Cocked, or un-cocked, Hammer springs are still under compression. The safest procedure would be to fully relax the spring by removing it.
Simple Green, while perhaps environmentally friendly, is still caustic, as are all citrus based cleaners. I would suggest it's best left in the garage, for cleaning engines. While it will simply remove paint (completely) at room temperature, it becomes even more potent at elevated temps.
Lock springs are made from a very high carbon steel (Ironically called spring steel) Making the material bend 180 degrees, even when heated cherry red, opens up edges on the outside of the radius. The best springers will carefully grind and polish the springs after bending, and tempering. Lesser quality springs probably don't get this skilled attention.

[Larry Frey]

Making the material bend 180 degrees, even when heated cherry red, opens up edges on the outside of the radius. The best springers will carefully grind and polish the springs after bending, and tempering. Lesser quality springs probably don't get this skilled attention.

Edgar,
I agree with everything you said but it dose not explain why this spring broke in the location that it did.

[edgarspencer]

The kinetic energy is stored along the entire spring. From the bend, to the stirrup hook, they are tapered, so that the energy is progressive. (High Performance springs in competition cars are called Progressive Springs) Any minute defect (As John stated, called a stress riser) along the surface can cause a failure when the spring is compressed.
It is blasphemy to say this, but visually compare the lock springs of our beloved Parkers to the spring in a "Best Grade" English gun, and it will be immediately evident the attention paid (or not) to these little bits. 'Theirs' look they're polished to a fairthewell compared to 'ours'.

[Eldon Goddard]

Is this true even for a high grade parker hammer? Do you think an A grade hammer gun would have polished springs? I have heard this from someone before so I am holding out hope that at least the high grade parkers stood up to the English best.

[edgarspencer]

Eldon, my highest grade hammer is a grade 3, and it's springs aren't polished very much. Brad Bachelder needs to ring in on this as he is messing with these for our dedicated hammer gun guys on a regular basis.

[Richard Flanders]

I don't know about the rest of you guys but when Edgar opines on metallurgy, I listen carefully and believe what he says. I'd love to put a wire into each of his ears and "download" his knowledge base on the subject. I never use Simple Green in my sonic cleaner. The ammonia in it is obnoxious and can not be good for any metal. I can't even stand to use that stuff on the sink with a sponge. The fumes play hell with my sinuses. I've permanently shelved what I have in stock in favor of pine oil cleaners.

I made a similar screwup recently with another cleaner and a gun part. I machined out an 80% AR lower of 7075 T6 aluminum. I always soak them in hot water with Dawn dish soap to get the oil off but added some Oxi-clean to this last soak, which was a mistake. Oxi-clean is a peroxide compound thus an oxidizer. 7075 is alloyed with something (Zn?-can't remember right now) and the O-clean darkened the entire lower slightly and caused some black spots where there were larger accumulations of the alloyed metal, which is clearly more subject to oxidation than the aluminum. No real damage to the lower but it's clearly microscopically etched. Won't make that mistake on the next one I can tell you. All in all this spring thing is a good lesson to us all on using sonic cleaners to clean gun parts.

[Brian Dudley]

The fit and finish on high grade Parker guns was very good. I have seen cross hatching on Hammerless hammers as low as grade 3 guns. And I have seen high polish on even the trigger springs in BH grade guns. The last high grade hammer gun I was into was a very early $225 or $250 grade and everything had a very good finish on it.

[edgarspencer]

Thanks Richard. My wife agrees I should have a wire inserted in each ear, but I'm not sure she's as much interested in downloading stuff, as she is offing me.
I am far from any wizard on this stuff, but I think these broken springs are a result of a 'perfect storm' of events; still under compression, not to mention being cocked, harmonics possibly, but I'm not so convinced on this, and an aggressive cleaner. The mere fact the springs appear black, as opposed to a near chrome-like finished of highly polished springs is damning in itself.

BTW, I like Dawn for a lot of applications other than doing dishes.

[edgarspencer]

Dean, I would agree that the heat didn't play a part in this from a metallurgical point, as it would need to get above about 900 degrees F, the lower critical temperature for alloy steel, but I think if the case can be made that the cleaning agent played a part, the heating of that agent would most likely intensify the etching effect.

[scott kittredge]

BTW, I like Dawn for a lot of applications other than doing dishes.[/QUOTE]

I use it to wash and help degrease ducks that i mount,
i couldn't tell you how it works on dishes but think it's used for that too.
scott

[wayne goerres]

I find it strange that the main spring for the bottom lock in the photo appears to be broken in two places and that the brake at the middle of the spring looks oxidized like it has had a crack for a while.

[edgarspencer]

It's kind of hard to tell if the spring on the upper lock is broken at the bend, but it does look odd. The color of the break is likely a result of being in the heated solution.

[Scot Cardillo]

I think Dean is spot on..could also have had a nick or other imperfection as well as an improper temper/ht but ultrasonic sure does shake things up with very small and rapid motions...not always so good for a part with a lot of internal stress.

I had both springs break in a Simson (Merkel) from having been setting cocked for a long period of time and once I started using the gun as intended.

[Mark Beasland]

This is very interesting. Over the years I have ultrasonic cleaned LOTS of parts and never had a damaged barrel set, part or spring. I use diluted dollar store cleaner degreaser in a heated tank. Hard for me to believe ultrasonic cleaning that won't damage case color, solder joint or blueing and won't touch rust will damage sound spring steel. I have never used simple green.

[Jerry Harlow]

When my main spring broke on the 1861 repro lock plate it had been in the Brownells Steel White overnight. It had not been touched. The solution and lock plate were both at the same temp. as they were both stored in my garage. No agitation. Just sitting in the solution. Pulled it out and the spring was broken in two pieces. Now this spring was probably only twenty years old.

[Preston Chaney]

Hi,
While the upper spring appears hopeless. I once repaired a break like that on the lower spring where the break is at the point where the spring turns a 180 deg corner. I stuck both ends into a potato to keep them cool and silver soldered the parts back together. The spring has worked fine for 40 years. I have also had good results making springs from the steel that you get from brownells. I have never tried to make that kind of spring however.
Regards
Preston Chaney

[John Campbell]

It is not generally known and/or accepted as possible, but flat springs like this can be welded... but not by just anyone. It takes an expert to do it right. The result is a very functional spring, if its properly cleaned up.

This is a perfect job for the experienced "micro welder."

[John Campbell]

It now appears that broken springs can be achieved without ultra sonic cleaners.

I recently soaked the assembled action and locks of an English sidelock in lacquer thinner for about 24 hours to clean them. Then allowed them to dry out in the sun. Then at some unannounced point, two springs simply BROKE !!! One the left lock's mainspring. The other, the safety roller spring. Both of which worked and appeared fine previously... only dirty.

I have never had this happen before. And can only think that the springs had failure points already, and the solvent allowed them to manifest the weakness.

No ultra sonic bath needed.

I guess you learn something every day...