Has anyone ever seen this?

[Dean Romig]

This is on an Ithaca I picked up today in Massachusetts for Fred Lowe in Salt Lake City.
I have never seen this device on any gun at all and I believe it was installed in order to raise the POI of the shot charge or, effectively increasing the DAC and the DAH.
With this device the DAC is 2" and the DAH is 3 1/4" but without it (I didn't remove the device but simply placed a shim of the same thickness under the muzzle end of the barrels.) the DAC is 1 7/8" and the DAH is 3" even.
It even looks like a factory installation, judging by the workmanship and the fact that the matting is virtually the same as that of the top rib.

Anybody familiar with one of these?





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[Bob Jurewicz]

Dean,
I'm been an Ithaca follower for a long time, but, never saw anything like that.
Bob Jurewicz

[Chuck Bishop]

Wouldn't it lower your POI? With this device installed, wouldn't it simulate a gun with so much drop that all you see is the back of the receiver?

[Dean Romig]

No because it raises only the bead in relation to your line of sight.

[Bob Jurewicz]

Chuck,
Interesting. However, I believe it would raise the point of impact.
Bob Jurewicz

[Dean Romig]

I acted as agent for Fred Lowe today and went to examine and consummate the deal on this little 1911 production Ithaca Flues. It weighs a scant 4 lb., 15 oz. but is really well balanced. As you can see it hasn't been messed with but with the possible exception of the added device on the breech end of the top rib. It is a 28 ga. with original 24" barrels, a straight grip with double triggers and the finish is all original with about 40% case color. The wood finish is original and the butt plate shows wear but is not chipped or cracked.

Feast your eyes!!!

Incidentally, I had Fred's permission to post these pictures.




.

[Daryl Corona]

WOW!! What a bird gun.

[Brian Dudley]

Very interesting engraving on that gun.

That riser would effectively do what a vent rib would do on a trap gun and make you shoot high.

I was wondering what that was on the other photos in Fred's original thread.

[John Dallas]

I don't understand. The stock has not been adjusted (raised/lowered), so your eye (the rear sight) has not been repositioned. The front sight has not been moved. Ergo, the gun should shoot where it would previously with or without the rib doobie

[G. Wells]

It seems to me that if one actually uses the front bead for shooting, POI would be higher as you would have to move the front of the barrel upward to see the bead. If one shoots without using the bead and just mounts the gun and shoots, it would seem to make no difference on POI. Could be wrong, but that makes sense to me.

[Fred Lowe]

Dean,

Thank you very much!

I can't wait to hold it! 4lbs. 15oz.

Any chance you took a full view of either side?

[Dean Romig]

I was wondering what that was on the other photos in Fred's original thread.

Can you post a link to Fred's original thread?

[Dean Romig]

Dean,

Thank you very much!

I can't wait to hold it! 4lbs. 15oz.

Any chance you took a full view of either side?

No I didn't Fed but I will.

[John Dallas]

A trap gun has a higher stock.

Is it possible that this is a device that was intended to align the eye?

[Larry Stalnaker]

That is a beautiful Ithica. That engraving is wonderful. What a great gun.

PopPop

[Dean Romig]

A trap gun has a higher stock.

Is it possible that this is a device that was intended to align the eye?

I believe so. I can't think of any other reason. Now we need to determine if it was factory installed... Anybody that knows, please chime in.

[Dean Romig]

Side views as requested.

Let me reiterate..... four pounds, fifteen ounces. :shock:




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[Dave Noreen]

Wow!! A No. 2 Krupp Pigeon, in 28-gauge and with a straight grip!! What a great find!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Ithaca%20and%20Lefever/No2KruppPigeon1915_zpsf71d02b0.jpg

Must be from the first batch of 28-gauge guns Ithaca Gun Co. built. The 28-gauge isn't on the 1911 Ithaca Price List, but is listed in the 1912-13 Ithaca Gun Co. catalogues.

[Russ Jackson]

Dean ,Before I sold my 12 Ga.#2 Pigeon Gun recently ,I was scouring the internet trying to figure out where to price it ,I came across another Ithaca with what appeared to be the same device , I have no idea if this was factory but I bet eventually we find out that it was ! By the way Fred ,That is a Wonderful Gun CONGRATLATIONS !!!!!!!!!!! Russ

[Chuck Bishop]

I agree with Big D. As long as your eye position doesn't change (rear sight) and the rib and front bead (front sight) has not changed in height, the POI will not change. The device looks like an aid to improve the sighting plane.

Dean, when cheeking the gun with a normal head position, could you still see the front sight?

[Larry Stalnaker]

Four pounds-fifteen ounces!?!
Now that I've stopped drooling, I printed the best picture of this device and am taking it to my father-in-law today to see if he knows what it is and how it attaches and what not. He's 85 years old and has held, shot, and owned more shotguns than the law allows. He is a wealth of information with no access to the internet or such things.
I tend to think it is for trap shooting, raise the rear sight or rear of the sighting plane and the front has to rise, right? It would be neat if that is removable, off for hunting and on for trap.

PopPop

[Drew Hause]

I've never seen that rib add-on, but the concept of an adjustable bead was out there. This is a "Bev-L-Block" sight (possibly with the bead broken off) which is shown on p. 210 of Brophy's "Plans and Specifications"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17126410/401017785.jpg

Raise the front bead = lower the POI

Raise the rear of the rib = raise your head = raise the POI

And the (purposeless) 'Celebrated Aubrey Disappearing Rear Sight' http://www.meridenfirearms.com/patent.html

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17474742/392187853.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17474742/392187852.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

I have a little 4 pound 12 ounce Francotte 28. It is very uncomfortable to shoot with factory loads. I load my standard target load with a filler in the shot cup and just a tad over 1/2 ounce of shot. This is a very comfortable shooting load in a less than five pound 28. I believe I used a .410 card wad in the shot cup the last time I loaded for this gun.

[Fred Lowe]

This gun will never see factory loads again.
I do load some 5/8 oz. 28's.
Do you use Unique for the 1/2 oz load?
I will be putting Spred-r inserts into the shells that go through this, as I believe it is choked full/full.

[Steve Cambria]

Hey Deanno,

Here's one of my trap-shooting buddies from Ft. Dodge. This guy owned a lot of "iron" and in his day produced more diesel smoke than Cummins. Notice anything unusual on the breech end of that rib? My guess is this was an after-market piece designed in the basement by some tweaker/tinkerer much like the "K-Man" himself. I agree with Brian that it's a false rib, emitting a similar sight picture as a full vent version.
http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w400/cambo1021/JK%20Birthday%20Bash%201937.jpg (http://s1073.photobucket.com/user/cambo1021/media/JK%20Birthday%20Bash%201937.jpg.html)

[Chuck Bishop]

Agree Tool Man. It's probably an aid to sighting similar in function to the V found at the breach end of a Parker vent rib. But again, if your eye height above the stock is not changed up or down, and the muzzle end of the rib or front sight is not moved up or down, then your POI will not change no matter what device you add to the rib. This assumes that the height of that device still allows you to see the front bead. If you can't see it and have to lift your head (eye), then the gun will shoot a higher POI.

BTW, you haven't aged a bit!

[Steve Cambria]

Your Eminence,

I can't disagree with you but perception is still nine tenths of the law. There is no doubt in my mind that an item as odd, mysterious, clunky and unbecoming as this, was conceived by none other than a trap shooter! :rotf:

[Fred Lowe]

Jury's out.

Walt Snyder just messaged me after having looked at all of the photos that we have to date of this "device".

I quote,

" There is no mention of anything special about the rib or anything so I think it is post factory. I have never seen anything like this before. At first I thought it might be a swamp rib affair but that is not the case. So-I don;t know--keep it or leave it????".

I then sent him the photo that Steve posted. His reply,

"May have been a fad at the time??"


I'll have to put more thought into it and won't hurry to take it off. I expect I will try to shoot it some with the "device" in place. But I would guess it won't end up staying on. The gun will look much smoother without that sitting on top.

[Rick Losey]

i would not doubt it comes from the mind of a trap shooter

but who the heck was shooting trap with a 4 lb 15 oz. 28 ga. with original 24" barrels???

[Chuck Bishop]

I've been known to try just about all the devices that a trapshooter could try at one time or another. I guess I resemble those remarks!

[Richard Flanders]

That gun looks like it has more than enough drop for anyone who isn't a human-giraffe cross. Can't imagine needing that thingy at the breech...and I like more drop than most shooters. My Ithaca 1-1/2 Flues has 3" DAH and fits me just peachy. My 28" VH20 is the same and I can't seem to miss with it.

[Dave Suponski]

Fred and Dean, I am thinking Marbles. They produced/ sold many shooting aids back in the day. If you could locate one of their catalogs that may be a help.

[Dean Romig]

This gun will never see factory loads again.
I do load some 5/8 oz. 28's.
Do you use Unique for the 1/2 oz load?
I will be putting Spred-r inserts into the shells that go through this, as I believe it is choked full/full.


The barrel flats are each stamped 4/4 which I believe is four quarters choke as 1/4 would be one quarter choke, 2/4 would be half choke and 3/4 would be three quarter choke. The actual constriction is .0016" in each tube and the chokes begin about 2 1/2" back from the muzzles.

[Dean Romig]

[QUOTE=Steve Cambria;160807] It's a false rib, emitting a similar sight picture as a full vent version.



Right Steve - that's what I suggested in my initial post and that it would raise the POI of the shot charge.
I don't however, agree that it was done by a tinkerer. Until it is proved otherwise I'm sticking with the 'factory installation' for the simple reason that is is matted exactly like the barrel rib.

[Dean Romig]

Agree Tool Man. It's probably an aid to sighting similar in function to the V found at the breach end of a Parker vent rib. But again, if your eye height above the stock is not changed up or down, and the muzzle end of the rib or front sight is not moved up or down, then your POI will not change no matter what device you add to the rib. This assumes that the height of that device still allows you to see the front bead. If you can't see it and have to lift your head (eye), then the gun will shoot a higher POI.

BTW, you haven't aged a bit!



Chuck.... you're a dedicated trap shooter, I know. And as such, you adhere to the proscribed tenets of what must be done in trap shooting to be a consistently successful shooter.... and one of those tenets is to keep your cheekbone pressed to the comb. And a dedicated trap gun has pretty straight dimensions - in any case, a lot straighter than this little gun.
This 28 gauge Ithaca wasn't made to be a trap gun - it was made as a game gun - an upland gun most likely. In those days a hunter would most likely have kept his head more erect and would, upon the flush, have brought the gun up to his line of sight - - - and that's the point of this little device - to more precisely direct his line of sight with the front bead a bit more elevated than the breech end of the barrel rib.

I don't know how I can explain it any better than that.

[Dean Romig]

I agree with Big D. As long as your eye position doesn't change (rear sight) and the rib and front bead (front sight) has not changed in height, the POI will not change. The device looks like an aid to improve the sighting plane.

Dean, when cheeking the gun with a normal head position, could you still see the front sight?


No Chuck, not with that device... it blocks my vision... I have to lift my cheek up a tad off the comb.

[charlie cleveland]

you ll always get a discussion on this gun with that little gadget still attached but if taken off it will just be another lite weight....if it were mine it would stay on...charlie

[Bill Murphy]

If it's good enough for Joe Kautsky, it's good enough for me. The "Gold Hearts Gun" has two enormous gold balls mounted left and right at the breech. It's quite an interesting sight picture. I believe they are pictured in Austin Hogan's article on the gun in Parker Pages.

[charlie cleveland]

bill does the two big sites help you...i mite try this on the 8 ga slug gun..i could make a slip on 2 sited thingy...charlie

[Dean Romig]

Good idea Charlie - you already have the slip-on thingy that came with the gun - just braze on a pair of sighting beads.

[Dave Suponski]

Bills"Gold Hearts gun"

[Dean Romig]

Fred was wondering how the two Ithaca's would look together so here they are. Click and click again on the picture to enlarge it.

Fred's is the straight grip 28 ga. grade-2 Flues.

Mine, or rather, Kathy's is the pistol grip 20 ga. grade 2 NIG.

Both have Krupp Fluid Steel barrels and both are 24" original length.

The 20 ga. PG NIG is ser. no. 195011 and was made in 1910 with 24" barrels.

The 28 ga. SG Flues is ser. no. 216165 and was made in 1911 with 24" barrels.





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[Fred Lowe]

Wow, that is just what I wanted to see.
What a pair! Almost hate to break it up.
This is going to be a looong week......:eek:

Dean have you measured either of them? LOP, DAC, DAH?

[Dean Romig]

Fred, I gave your DAC and DAH measurements in my first post and your LOP is 13 3/4".

My LOP is 14 1/4" even though mine was ordered for a lady.

The DAC of mine is 1 13/16" and the DAH is 3 3/16".

If yours isn't long enough for you the butt plate can be easily removed and a period correct pad can be installed without altering the butt at all except for a couple of screw holes if the screws for the pad don't line up with the original screw holes. And, of course you'll save the original butt plate.

Does anyone know what a period correct pad would be for this 1911 Ithaca?... Researcher?

[Rick Losey]

Does anyone know what a period correct pad would be for this 1911 Ithaca?... Researcher?

lots of discussion on that topic here

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=395797#Post395797

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Rick. The focus of that thread was a 1923 Ithaca Grade 2 Flues but there is a little information on earlier pads.

[Mike Franzen]

Congratulations to both of you on finding these guns. The 28 has about the thinnest breech balls I think I've ever seen. Those are "carry all day guns".

[Dave Noreen]

Mine, or rather, Kathy's is the pistol grip 20 ga. grade 2 NIG.



The New Ithaca Gun (NIG) was the Ithaca hammer gun, built concurrently with and serial numbered along with the Crass, Lewis, Minier and early Flues hammerless guns. Both guns in those pictures are Flues Models. The NIG was only offered in 10-, 12- and 16-gauge, though I have heard rumors of 20-gauge NIGs.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Dave -

Both models' serial numbers run concurrently and I had presumed that because of the difference in frame sculpting that Fred's was a Flues and mine, being obviously different, was the NIG.
Thanks for the explanation. Any thoughts as to why the two very different frame sculpting styles existed in the same model, one being a 1910 production and the other being a 1911 production?

[Dave Noreen]

There are at least three different frame profiling styles in Ithaca Flues Model doubles. There was one like this as well as the two pictured above --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Ithaca%20and%20Lefever/0000001ComonFluesprofile.jpg

Like the early and late Parker Bros. hammerless profiling and the press fit or screw slot pin to secure the roll.

[Dean Romig]

Once again Dave - Thank You for that information.

[Dave Noreen]

There seems to be at least three variations of Ithaca Flues Model frame profiling.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Ithaca%20and%20Lefever/356544rightfull.jpg

Likewise some have a screw in the top-lever attaching it to the spindle and some have the top-lever and spindle forged in one.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Ithaca%20and%20Lefever/0000004Fluestopleverwithscrew.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Ithaca%20and%20Lefever/0000002FluesTopLeversolid.jpg

Kinda like there are two different Parker Bros. hammerless receiver profiles and there are press-fit pins holding the roll and those with the slotted head screw two-piece pin to hold the roll.

[will evans]

Amazing the difference in stylish appearance of the press-pin top lever style versus the screw design. I can hardly stomach those of a Baker - a beautiful gun until you look at that hideous top lever design.