Variances in chokes?

[Mike Stahle]

I did some checking with an inside caliper of the chokes on my 1900 12 ga. Parker tonight. I compared the Parker chokes against my Invector+ chokes from my Browning Citori Lightning.

The Parker letter I recieved today said the barrels were choked Full & Full.
Visually you can see they are not the same, the guy i bought it from said they were mod. & full.

The Parker right barrel chock is just a hair tighter than the Improved
Modified invector+.

The Parker left barrel is almost as tight as the X-full turkey
invector +.

Thoughts please.

Mike :-)

[Dean Romig]

You really can't measure a choke properly (or at least an older SXS choke) with a caliper. Choke constriction is not a static measurement but the amount of constriction as compared to the i.d. of the bore about 6" back from the muzzle. Even this description is a bit too simplified because an original Parker choke is more complex than a simple cone.

[Pete Lester]

They only way to really find out what any shotgun is choked is to carefully pattern it by shooting it and counting the holes in a 30" circle at 40 yards (many times).

Measurements are not meaningless but they don't tell you the full story. You could have a Parker that shoots full and full and the barrels might have 32 and 38 thousandeths of constriction.

Each barrel reacts diffently, each gun reacts differently. It might shoot extra full with 8's and modified with 6's. There are a lot of factors at play that cause this.

One the great things about Parker's is their chokes and ability of the tight chokes to really reach out and touch them. Parker put a great deal of effort into barrels, regulating them and shooting them to get desired performace. Choke perforamce is one the BIG reasons why I think a well worn Trojan is better than a lot of brand new anything.

[Mike Stahle]

So what your saying is Parkers were not a cookie cutter produced gun.
So about how many times was the average Parker pattern fired and honed
till they had it right? 40 yrds. was mentioned as the patterning range, what
Size shot did they use in this test patterning?

[Pete Lester]

When it comes to choke performance there were no cookie cutters, at least no untested cookie cutters. A PGCA letter may give you information on what the chokes were to be and sometimes they contain information regarding shot size and shot weights used. 12ga guns were often patterned with straight no. 7 shot.

Choke performance is one of the great joys of shooting a Parker in the field.

[Chuck Heald]

It may be as simple as someone has openned up the right barrel, as well. Two GH guns from the 05 era I have, had their "Full" dimensions right at .040". You need to measure the bore and then the constriction. A straight section in the muzzle end of the choke, often is an indicator someone may have openned a choke.

[Larry Frey]

Chuck,
Actually a 1/4" to 3/8" straight at the end of a Parker choke is pretty normal. Austin has posted here and in the Parker Pages diagrams showing the shape Parker used to achieve the wonderful patterns these gun produce. Of course modern ammo shoots and patterns differently then that which the factory used so as Pete says you really need to pattern each gun with the ammo you intend to shoot to know what the gun will do.

[Bill Murphy]

The choke measurement comparison between the Browning and the Parker is of no consequence because the bore diameters may be different by many thousandths. Parker bores were not all the same, nor were the ranges, target dimensions, shot sizes, or shot weights used in the factory patterning of the guns.

[Bill Murphy]

Read the "Winter Project" thread on the Hammer Gun section of the forum for a little more information on Parker chokes and patterns.

[Dean Romig]

And, depending on where the shot was sourced, shot size o.d. was not necessarily consistent between shot makers so the pellet count may vary somewhat especially between then and now with plastic shot cups.

[Austin W Hogan]

I am bringing this to the top in support of the call for shell case dimensions that accompanies this post.
Dave, Dean and Larry have measured an unfinished barrel set and found that barrels were initially bored to a full choke contour. Continuing research indicates that the choke contour was often modified, and that forcing cone shape may have been altered to achieve the specified choke.
There are several notes on patterning in The Parker Story, Johnson and Baer. I assimilate them in my mind to conclude that guns were not patterned by counting a 30 inch circle, but by eyeballing a gridded 24 inch square. DuPont bulk smokeless and Tatham No7 shot were used to pattern, unless the customer specified a choice of powder or shot. Many requests were for "as close as can" regarding choke. Guns were often returned to be repatterned and tightened; one must conclude that the original choke taper was modified in this process.
The attached figure shows a magnified contuour of a live bird gun barrel. The plotted points show the difference among several similar barrels that were probable altered to achieve the requested pattern.
Best, Austin

[Bill Murphy]

We continue to state that a 30" target, or a 24" target, Tatham #7 shot, Dupont Bulk powder, or 40 yards, or 45 yards, or whatever, were the standards or that one combination of the previous was "always" used, when that is not true at all. What combination was used to pattern a certain gun is only the combination that was used on that gun and the only way we know that is to read the order book specifications, which sometimes didn't make it to the finished gun, or the stock book entry, which is the spec for the finished gun, or the original hang tag, which should also be the spec for the finished gun. Guns on the same page of the stock book with the same specifications are often patterned with a different combination of components. Just for an example, my 12 gauge #216,008 was patterned with 1 1/8 ounces of shot and my #216,218 was patterned with 1 1/4 ounces of shot. If we somehow knew the pellet count, it wouldn't mean much unless we knew the weight and size of the load used to shoot the pattern. Early guns were patterned at 40 yards or 45 yards and at a 30" target or a 24" target depending on who knows what. There does not seem to be a standard or a clear cutoff date among various methods.

[Chuck Heald]

After observing all this banter over the yrs on this subject, whether on Parkers or other makes, I've come to the conclusion that when I buy a gun, I simply go by the constriction to form an idea of the performance. And since I shoot a variety of ammunition types, payload weight and shot size, only patterning at whatever distance I find a need for, is truly the bottom line. I don't pattern at "standard" distances, I shoot for effective range for my load and game. I want to know the distance limit for my game-gun-load. Anything else is just 'interesting' to me.

[Bill Murphy]

Chuck, most people who are tuning in here are interested in the original configuration of their Parker. I don't understand the nitpicking either, but the "original configuration" or original patterning information is often asked for, so I try to share the information I know. When I buy a Parker, I couldn't give a darn how it is choked as long as it will shoot. I would like it to be somewhat original in the bores, but I don't insist on it, especially in the early guns. I request a PGCA letter in the hope that I will get some ownership provenance, but patterning information is often a bonus.

[Mike Stahle]

After observing all this banter over the yrs on this subject, whether on Parkers or other makes, I've come to the conclusion that when I buy a gun, I simply go by the constriction to form an idea of the performance. And since I shoot a variety of ammunition types, payload weight and shot size, only patterning at whatever distance I find a need for, is truly the bottom line. I don't pattern at "standard" distances, I shoot for effective range for my load and game. I want to know the distance limit for my game-gun-load. Anything else is just 'interesting' to me.

Amen Chuck :-)
I am happy with my old girl.
If I do my part, she will do hers even at a 110 yrs. old.
See topic: "Parker First Range Report. (Lots Of Pics.)"

[Dean Romig]

What combination was used to pattern a certain gun is only the combination that was used on that gun and the only way we know that is to read the order book specifications, which sometimes didn't make it to the finished gun, or the stock book entry, which is the spec for the finished gun, or the original hang tag, which should also be the spec for the finished gun. Guns on the same page of the stock book with the same specifications are often patterned with a different combination of components.

There does not seem to be a standard or a clear cutoff date among various methods.

So Bill, are we to assume that any gun produced for 'stock' and later to be sold as part of a very large 'stock' order by one of Parker Bros. larger wholesale customers would have been randomly patterned by any number of the various patterning methods in use at the time?
I prefer to believe there was "method" to what otherwise must be seen as "madness".
This may be a bottomless pit...

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, I'm sure that any Parker that was patterned with the combination mentioned on the stock book or hang tag entry for the particular gun was actually patterned with the combination of components and range and target mentioned. However, the next gun on the stock book page may have been patterned with a whole different combination of components and ranges and pattern diameter. If you have the stock book info or hang tag, you know how the gun was made. Otherwise, you measure the bores and chokes before you buy the gun and not worry about how close it is to original specs. I buy guns with thick barrels and significant choke and worry about the similarity to the original specs later. I gave one instance of two guns of similar specs being patterned with different shells, even though the serial numbers were only a couple of hundred numbers apart. This is rather common. Measure the bores, write the check. Worry about the details later.

[Dean Romig]

In this particular discussion I'm not concerned with the patterning specs or the choke and bore measurements of a particular gun that I may want to consider buying for myself but more with the uncertain economics of what you're suggesting Parker Bros. did at the gun manufactory. It simply doesn't seem economically feasible that they would randomly pattern this 'stock' gun this way and the next 'stock' gun differently. The man-hours spent in resetting patterning plates from thirty yards out to forty then back again to thirty or thirty-five for the next gun while the guys in the other adjacent patterning tunnels were doing the same thing just can't have been approved by the superintendant. Quite probably there were four or five patterning tunnels each set at a particular yardage but even so, someone still had to give the order to pattern gun "X" at forty yards and gun "Y" at thirty-five. The question, in my mind, remains "Why and How?" I know there probably isn't answer but I can't conceive of it being a random thing. It's a quagmire...

[Dean Romig]

Okay, here's a thought... Guns made for stock were all left in the rack in a state of semi-completion left at full/full until such time as an order came in from a wholesale customer like Simmons Hardware in St. Louis, Mo., for example, for one-hundred, fifty shotguns with pre-specified dimensions, grades, gauge, barrel length and choke or pattern at particular yardages. Then the guns for that order were selected and patterned accordingly. Now that makes sense.

[Austin W Hogan]

I remember several brief passages about methods of patterning including one which implied the old board had been replaced with a new 24 inch board. I would probably spend a week turning pages to reconstruct this.
The conclusion I have drawn is that the barrel department had a grid which was used to pattern. It was probably coated with whitewash between shots. The number of pellets in a sector were counted or estimated, and multiplied by a number to state a pattern.
Returning to the original question; has anyone found any pre 1920 cases?

Best, Austin

[Austin W Hogan]

A 24 x 24 square has 81% of the area of a 30 inch circle; the corners extend outside of the circle, and there are four little crescents of the circle that are outside the rectangle.

Dividing the 24 x 24 square into 16 6 x 6 squares would allow 1 square to be counted and multiplied by 19.6 to get the number of shot in a 30 inch circle.

Dividing the 24 x24 square into 6 8x8 squares would allow 1 square to be counted and multiplied by 11 to get the number in a 30 inch circle.

Applying random error statistics shows that a number of targets equal to the multiplier would need to be counted to differentiate the difference between the sample and the full 30 inch circle.

I am sure King figured this out quite quickly.

Best, Austin

[Dean Romig]

Austin, I posted my findings over on the "Parker Pages Research" thread last night.

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, to answer your question and clarify my point, "I don't think the patterning was random, I just feel that to know exactly what was used in the patterning, we have to read the stock book entry or have access to the hang tag." The range and diameter of the target probably remained the same for long periods of time. The load weight and shot size changed with the wind. I have seen stock book entries for #8, #7, #7 1/2, and all manner of charge weights. To know when changes were made, we would have to look at the book or the card. When the order book entry calls for a gun to pattern well with #4 bird shot or 00 Buck, I assume the stock book entry just may show test patterning with #4 bird shot or 00 Buck. I have some serial numbers of guns ordered to shoot buckshot. It would be interesting to read the stock book entries on those guns to see whether test patterning was done with buckshot. Unfortunately, as Mark and I have explained in the past, much patterning information is cut off the right end of the stock book copies because of the limitations of the copying equipment used by Commander Gunther when he copied the stock books. Page 866 of TPS shows an example of "loads changing with the wind" in the stock books. In a page of 12 gauge guns being patterned with 1 1/4 ounce loads of #7 1/2 shot, serial number 226,232 shows up being patterned with 1 1/8 ounces of #7 1/2 shot. Why? Who knows? But it is there for all of us to see (with a magnifier in my case). I have seen the same thing in the many Model 21 Winchester build sheets I have in my collection. The shells that are used to pattern these guns are all over the map. They used what they had, within the confines of what was proper for the gun. It tickles me to see the loads that they used to test 7 1/2 pound Model 21s with 3" chambers. They often used loads I would not even think to shoot in a 7 1/2 pound gun, but every day was a different day and the test loads changed with the wind just like they did at Parker Brothers.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Bill - I think I'm beginning to understand it all a bit more clearly now.

[Dave Suponski]

Just to keep this thread moving.Here is a photo of a great little VH that I examined today.This gun has all three hang tags with it...just missing the box..:shock:

[Harry Collins]

Though these pictures are not very clear we can see three different loads for the three barrels to this DH.

Harry

[Mike Stahle]

Had my local gunsmith check the bores of my Parker.
He did some measuring and agreed with the factory letter that both
chokes are full & full. He said the left is a little fuller than the right.
He said the gun was very well taken care of over the yrs. by someone who
knew what gun oil was and most importantly how to use it.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/mountaincreekphotos/Parker12ga004.jpg

[Chuck Heald]

Dean,
I seem to recall some discussion on chokes a few yrs back over on the doublegunshop bbs where some correspondance was posted showing that the customer ordering the gun specified a distance and percentage of pattern and size of that pattern. It seemed to me to be non-standard in distance. Possibly, some customers specified the distance they wanted the gun patterned at, with some regularity in those days.

[Mike Stahle]

Dean,
I seem to recall some discussion on chokes a few yrs back over on the doublegunshop bbs where some correspondance was posted showing that the customer ordering the gun specified a distance and percentage of pattern and size of that pattern. It seemed to me to be non-standard in distance. Possibly, some customers specified the distance they wanted the gun patterned at, with some regularity in those days.

Interesting thought.
You do have two barrels, why not something like 35 yrds. right side
45 yrds. left side. Could indeed have been the thinking.