Drop at Comb

[Garth Gustafson]

Guys- Rookie question - why was the drop at comb so high on the early Parkers? Seems that a lot of hammer guns have DAC with an inch or more drop than later, lower grade hammerless guns that were built to "modern dimensions". My 1897 GH has 1-5/8" drop and my 1917 VH has 1-1/2" drop.

Were we built that differently back then or were stock dimensions geared to different shooting or hunting styles? If I shoot a gun with 2-1/2" DAC on a crossing shot, I'd be missing way high. But if I was lucky enough to surprise a raft of ducks and caught them on the rise, the extra drop might be a good thing.

[scott kittredge]

Guys- Rookie question - why was the drop at comb so high on the early Parkers? Seems that a lot of hammer guns have DAC with an inch or more drop than later, lower grade hammerless guns that were built to "modern dimensions". My 1897 GH has 1-5/8" drop and my 1917 VH has 1-1/2" drop.

Were we built that differently back then or were stock dimensions geared to different shooting or hunting styles? If I shoot a gun with 2-1/2" DAC on a crossing shot, I'd be missing way high. But if I was lucky enough to surprise a raft of ducks and caught them on the rise, the extra drop might be a good thing.

unless you hold your head up or have big fat cheeks , 2 1/2 DAC, you would be looking at your opening lever , the less DAC ( say 1 inch) would make you shoot high

[Dean Romig]

Were we built that differently back then or were stock dimensions geared to different shooting or hunting styles?

Bingo! That is the generally accepted answer and I agree.

If I shoot a gun with 2-1/2" DAC on a crossing shot, I'd be missing way high. But if I was lucky enough to surprise a raft of ducks and caught them on the rise, the extra drop might be a good thing.

I think that kind of DAC would work in the reverse of what you think.

[Dave Suponski]

Garth, There are two dimentions Drop at Comb and Drop at Heel. The more important of the two is drop at comb. A gun stocked at 1 1/2" DAC and 2 5/8" DAH are perfect for me. The shooting style of years ago was "Head erect" The shooter of that era never "Cheeked" the gun but rather placed the gun in the shoulder pocket.

[wayne goerres]

This is an interesting subject. I have a hammer Boss that has a lot of drop to it and right from the start I could hit every clay I shot at. When I use a gun with more modern dimensions it seems like I have to conform to the gun instead of it feeling natural like the Boss. Am I older than I think or is my neck just to long?

[charlie cleveland]

i think we was born a hundred years to late wayne...charlie

[Garth Gustafson]

You guys are right of course. Took me a while to get the simple concept through my thick head that too much drop naturally causes us to shoot low unless we keep our heads up. Maybe we're all just a bunch of rehabilitated rifle shooters after all.

[wayne goerres]

Hm Maybe I can use this as an excuse when my friends out shoot me at the rifle range.

[Paul Harm]

All my shotguns have 2 1/8 DAC and 3 1/4 DAH, and yes I shoot head erect, the way everyone naturally walks around and does day to day projects. One of the newest fads for SC's is a high rib and a high monte carlo stock so you shoot heads up. It helps one who has to wear glasses to look through the center of the lens, where the glasses are ground for correction. You also don't have to worry about lifting your head, it's already up. The down side of a stock with lots of drop is that you feel the recoil more because the barrels want to flip up causing the comb to go into your cheek. I just shoot 7/8oz loads to counter this problem.

[paul stafford jr]

my guns with a lot of drop are shot with a very firm grip on the forend and I pull her in tight to the shoulder , I pivot only at the waste and this gives good gun control on doubles ,mr harm is correct about the muzzle jump problem on guns with a lot of drop ,that's how I deal with them anyone can shoot them well with a little practice ,some guys will walk away from a gun that they think they cant shoot because of the big drops on some guns ,never seen a parker I didn't want to shoot

[Chuck Bishop]

Paul Harm, since your eye is your rear sight, how do you keep your eye at the same height relative to the barrel when you mount from a low gun position time after time when you have to mount the gun quickly. I assume your cheek never hits the stock with that much drop. With a higher comb, you have the same reference point when your cheek contacts the stock assuming your cheek hits the same point on the comb each time you mount the gun.

Just asking because a small change in your eye position relative to the barrel makes a big difference on how high or low your gun shoots.

[Paul Harm]

I have a DVD by Chris Batha about shooting the double gun. In it he talks about shooting stance. Weight equal on both feet keeps the head up, weight on the front foot makes you want to push your head forward and somewhat down. He shoots a more modern stocked gun so he's a weight forward shooter. If you're going to shoot the old SxS's with lots of drop you just about have to shoot " heads up ". Where does the gun hit my face ? It just naturally comes up between the cheek bone and jaw. I don't worry about lifting my head to see if I hit the bird, it's already up. Try mounting your gun with more weight on the front foot and then with equal weight on both feet and you'll see what I mean. One other item, you don't walk around with your head down at a 45 degree angle looking out of the top of your eyes, so why would you shoot a gun this way? I've notice a lot of the top SC's shooters are using a high rib and monte carlo stock so they can shoot heads up - us with the old guns don't need all that, we already have one stocked properly. JMHO

[Craig Larter]

I agree with Paul the key to shooting vintage SxS with lots of drop is keeping equal weight on both feet and standing straight with head up. One other consideration--I also find as your leading hand is extended further out on the barrel it can/will pull your head down. If you wear glasses shooting heads up style allows better target focus through corrective lenses in my experience. JMHO

[Rick Losey]

after years of wood on wood - not lifting my head

now i am supposed to keep my head up? :crying:

i just add a pad to get the comb to where my eye should be if the drop where correct/consistent between guns

not that it makes me shoot any better- but my excuses can be consistent as well

the negative is it does hide some nice wood that might distract observers

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=588&pictureid=6900

[John Dallas]

Looks to me that the downside of your rig is that you have added about 1/4" of cast on. That would be a bigger deal than the drop for me.

[Rick Losey]

Looks to me that the downside of your rig is that you have added about 1/4" of cast on. That would be a bigger deal than the drop for me.


not that much really- the pad itself is thin and i build it up right on top of the comb

my eye still aligns with the rib

since the comb thins a little, it is not a straight sided slab- so as you raise the top of the comb- you can add a little to the side and keep the same width as it was below

[Drew Hause]

The ol' boys were much more likely to 'crawl the stock' as does Dr John Truitt, quite effectively

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/406477891.jpg

More here
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/document/d/1c7UkkNyMTZ9NAztILpzjSLKvgIneAw5i7eqkZ3d3Eno/preview

[Chuck Bishop]

I don't disagree that you have to shoot heads up with a gun with lots of drop or else you'll only see the back of the receiver. The other 2 things you can do is bend the stock or add a comb riser. With shooting head up on a gun with lots of drop, how do you keep the proper eye alignment when your chasing a bird or clay target? That's why firm contact on the stock with the cheek bone is important through the entire swing.

Maybe Dr. John can tell us what the DAC and DAH is on that hammer gun.

[Daryl Corona]

Knowing John and looking at that stock in the picture I'd be willing to bet that it is damn near parallel or close to it.

[Bill Murphy]

John can shoot a gun with a lot of drop at heel because he crawls the comb. The comb drop is probably more to his liking. The drop at heel means little. I have shot in competition for decades and have always preferred to crawl the stock. It's not for everyone, but it has worked for me. Many participants in the king of clay target sports, International Skeet, crawl the stock.

[will evans]

I might be capable of learning to shoot clays with the above technique, but having to worry about keeping my weight distributed trying to hit a grouse on the wing? Fuggetaboutit.

So do you guys only use those particular guns on the clay fields, or have you learned to maintain your shooting form in an alder bottom?

[Rick Losey]

So do you guys only use those particular guns on the clay fields, or have you learned to maintain your shooting form in an alder bottom?

you have shooting form in an alder bottom? :bowdown:

[Dean Romig]

Of Course we do.... contorted as it is, usually with one leg tangled and twisted, and the other pointing in a direction other than that of the flight path of a corkscrewing woodcock or grouse with afterburners approaching FULL - I'd say we exhibit excellent shooting form in the alder bottoms :D

[Paul Harm]

When hunting wouldn't it be easier to keep your head up where it normally is than to have to put it down ? And why can't you shoot a crossing bird with your head up ? The gun is still mounted to your face, only in a different position. Check out Pat Lieske, a national sporting clays champion. He shoots a O/U with a very high rib and a high monty carlo stock so he can shoot heads up. He claims there's less strain on the neck and allows him to keep his eyes centered so there's less strain on them. Also claims you see better, like walking around everyday. How many baseball, basketball, football, or tennis pros play with their head tilted down looking out of the top of their eyes ? :banghead: If all you stock crawlers would just stand normally you'd find that old Parker with all the drop will just magically come up top your face.:whistle:

[Drew Hause]

Scroll to the bottom here and you'll note that every international trap and skeet shooter crawls the stock, as does Gibben Miles shooting FITASC

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/408936400.jpg

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/21690841

Except Saeed Al Maktoum shooting int. skeet with a...uh...highly modified sxs :shock:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/401528301.jpg

Craig Bennett at The Southern. He has a full face, but is still crawling the stock and his right thumb likely touches his nose

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/396552844.jpg

However, whatever works...works :)

[Paul Harm]

Just goes to show how many guys are doing it wrong.:rolleyes:

[Michael Murphy]

I suspect that Dr. John could have a sewer pipe attached to a 2 x 4 and still hit targets.