Hammer Guns Without Checkering

[Todd Kaltenbach]

How many members have Parkers without any checkering? I have seen a few, all hammer guns made prior to 1880 but would like to see more so please post pics of your guns if you have one. This one is #7004, 12 gauge with 28" barrels.

[Chuck Bishop]

Todd, this is from the 1878 price list but it is the same as the real early price list description except they didn't offer a pistol grip. I believe I've also seen many of these 0 grade guns with checkering but can't tell if it's original or added at a later date.

"Plain Twist Barrels, no Engraving or Checking. Pistol Grip; No 12 Gauge. $55.00." "Ditto with Straight Grip, $50.00." This was the lowest grade comparable to a Grade 0.

[Dean Romig]

Chuck's the guy with the records but I can't say I've seen a documented 0-grade equivalent Parker of that era that had checkering. Later on the 0-grades had checkering but I don't have the serial number range or year that the change was made.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Todd, I have a couple early guns in the 3-4000 range that have no checking, All the rest of my early guns have checking, I have found that the two without checking also have plain steel barrels, I believe that plain steel barrels are pretty scarce do not know for sure, but do not see many of them . I also believe that they were pretty strong barrels for their time, maybe Chuck can chime in here? Gary

[Robert Rambler]

1878 10ga, underlifter, 32' twist barrels.

[Eric Estes]

I don't know that this narrows down anything, but here is 9562. It is a 0 grade with barrels marked "Plain Twist". The wood is original and there is no checkering.
39279
39280
39281

I also have 11009 which is also a 0 grade with Plain Twist barrels. It also has original wood, but has what appears to me to be original checkering.

[Brian Dudley]

I no longer own this particular gun. But here are some photos of it.

1 frame 0 grade 12g. with 28" barrels.

S/N 12896

39313

39314

[William Davis]

My Lifter 8526 is checkered, not factory work. Does not look like it's been sanded out and re-cut. Bet it left the factory plain.

William

[Mills Morrison]

I have two hammer guns without checkering. Both 0 grades

[Chuck Bishop]

Attached is a scan of the 1874 price list. As you can see, the lowest grade in both 10 and 12 gauges says it has Plain Steel with no engraving or checkering. The next highest grade has "English Twist" steel, no engraving or checkering. If the rib inscription says "Plain Steel" would this be an indication that it's the lowest grade? The second level says Englist Twist but I've never seen the rib inscription say this. I have seen "Twist Steel" on the rib inscription, is this "English Twist"???

Stock book #1 goes from 1500 to 4259. It's very hard to read, the printing is so faded that many parts are blank, especially the column for barrel steel. I've seen 0, iron, twist, laminated, and Damascus in the column when I can read it. Would 0 indicate Plain Twist, iron indicate decarbonized steel, twist indicate English twist, laminated and Damascus are a given. In Stock Book #2, you start to see the abbreviations PT, T0, T1, T, and PS. Many of these blocks where the barrel steel is written in is completely blank but who ever analyzed the original records wrote in red ink what type of steel was used. They must have been able to read the original records but when they were copied, it didn't pick up the faded writing so they wrote in red ink on the copy we have.

As you can see, doing research letters on these real early guns is a challenge that I don't look forward too.

[Mills Morrison]

My back action lifter with Decarbonized steel barrels has checkering (or the remnants of checkering) and it must have been equivalent to a 0 grade

My theory is that before grades, there was a lot of variation among the different "grades" or price points and one reason they introduced standardized grades was to cut down on the confusion. Just my thought though

[Dave Suponski]

Mills, Backaction guns with factory checkering were considered "delux" grade guns in the 1869 catalog.

[Mills Morrison]

Mills, Backaction guns with factory checkering were considered "delux" grade guns in the 1869 catalog.

Thanks for that info.

[Patrick Hanna]

I had #29218 for a while. It was found, literally in pieces and in paper bags, in a garage. It had been heavily sanded and very sloppily painted with shellac, but I'm certain there was never any checkering.

It is a grade 1 10 gauge top lever hammer gun. I no longer have this gun.

Two photos of its found condition, and two of its cleaned and reassembled condition.

[Rick Losey]

nice save Patrick

[Brian Dudley]

Patrick,
That gun likely originally had checkering since it is a grade 1. All of it has either been worn or sanded off. Since the forend is all below metal and wrist is very thin.

[Patrick Hanna]

Hi, Brian. That's interesting to know. When I first saw the gun I was pretty ignorant about Parkers (the truth is, I still am). I just accepted it as an uncheckered stock. I wondered about the checkering later. I'm not disputing what you're saying, but there isn't even a hint of checkering on the stock now. Yes, the fore end is WELL below metal. It's a shame. I couldn't have judged the stock wrist, because it's such a massive shotgun anyway. But, yes, the trigger guard is proud of the wood, too. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Mark Landskov]

I once owned an 1877 vintage 0 Grade 12 gauge, serial 10250, that exhibited no checkering on the forend and stock. The barrels were 32" 'Plain Twist'.

[Carl Baird]

For what it's worth I have an 1884(letter) hammer gun with "Stub Twist" 32" barrels and it has checkering. The stub twist was the most basic of twist steels. I truly believe there may have been general rules, but nothing was hard and fast.
A bad segue, but my barrels are in good shape and I've read the reports on the strength of Damascus vs. steel, but does anyone know where I can research the strength differences between the fine english damascus down through the different grades to include my stub twist?

[Fred Preston]

No. 12465, 10ga, Plain Twist, never saw a checking tool.

[Carl Baird]

Hi Blind Dog'
What's the lowest grade, plain twist or Stub twist? I always thought it was stub twist?

[Chuck Bishop]

Carl, I think Stub Twist was considered a slightly higher grade of twist than Plain Twist.

My other questions are still unanswered in my mind. Refer to my previous 2 posts on this thread especially the 1874 price list. You'll see that the lowest grade (0 grade) has plain twist, no engraving or checkering. The next highest grade (1 grade?) shows the same but English Twist. Could this be Stub Twist? The next highest grade also shows English Twist. What's the difference???

It would be interesting to compare what the rib inscription actually reads for these different grade of guns. I would have to compare the selling price in the records to the rib inscription to determine the grade. Was English Twist the name Parker used for both Stub Twist and Twist?

It's confusing when looking at those real old Parkers and trying to determine grade especially without knowing the selling price in those lower grades.

[Dean Romig]

Where does simple 'Twist' fall into the lineup?

[Chuck Bishop]

That's one of the things I want to know. Is Twist the English Twist the price list mentions?

[Carl Baird]

went to dinner guys, sorry. My gun was a rescue. I bought it cheap because it looked nice. Believe it or not, the gun was in great shape except someone a long time ago had restocked it with Tiger Maple. The forend was original to the gun and walnut. It plainly says "Stub Twist" on the barrels just below the Parker name. I like the pattern, it's quite bold. My understanding is that Stub Twist barrels were made using high grade iron nails along with the steel. This gun is not an under lifter, its a top lever. I want to shoot it but was just wondering if I need to be overly concerned using target loads?

[Carl Baird]

I think you are right...english twist is the twist Parker used. I don't claim to know, but didn't Parker tend to use the english twist, laminated and damascus rather than the Belgium barrels...or am I wrong?

[Patrick Hanna]

With regard to grades and steel types, #29218, shown previously, is marked "Laminated Steel" on the top rib. This is a Grade 1 hammer gun, 10 gauge.

[Chuck Bishop]

Patrick, is the Grade letter on the water table i?

[Patrick Hanna]

Hi, Chuck,
Yes, here is a picture. By the way, this was obviously before the clean up.

Patrick

[Carl Baird]

Patrick, where your's say's laminated, mine says stub twist. It's deep in my safe but I'm going to get it out and take a picture of it. As I remember, the serial number is in the 35xxx range. I'm a bit intrigued now because I don't know of anyone that has ever said they have a parker with stub twist barrels. It can't be that rare? However, it was a field grade and I'm sure a black powder gun. Maybe very few survived?

[Patrick Hanna]

Carl,
I'm not knowledgable at all, but I've seen the term "stub twist" come up here before. I wish I could contribute something useful about stub twist, but I can't. However, if this thread stays alive, I am darned certain that someone will chime in about stub twist.

In the meantime, we (myself included) have sort of derailed this thread about non-checkered Parkers. But I doubt our original poster is too offended. I hope not.

Patrick

[Chuck Bishop]

Stub twist is not uncommon but less common than Plain Twist. Patrick, is that a capital I? The price list from that era shows it as a lower case i. Probably a misprint in the price list.

[Patrick Hanna]

Hi again,Chuck,
Yes, it is definitely a number 1. It's not a Roman numeral or an "I". It's a latin number "1". I just looked for an "after" picture. I have a number of pictures of the cleaned receiver, but, regrettably, nothing that shows the grade marking after cleaning. But it says "1" above the serial number.
Patrick

[Dean Romig]

Here are a couple of pictures of the Stub Twist barrels on 20 ga. lifter 10165.




.

[Patrick Hanna]

Ooooooo.... Very pretty to my eyes. And I can tell by that sliding fore arm key that your gun is older than the one I showed. Very cool!

We had a thread on various types of barrel steel some time ago and it seems to me that several fine examples of stub twist were shown and discussed. I'm not sure how to find it in the archives, but I know it's out there.

Perhaps one of the regular contributors can find a link for us.

[Dean Romig]

As I was looking over the pictures of 10165, the 20 ga. with the Stub Twist barrels I thought folks would be interested that it shows no evidence of ever being checkered. It is an enigma also by the fact that it has a skeleton steel butt plate, sculpted bolsters that are similar to the Grade 3 hammer guns and some very unusual engraving too. It is listed as a T0 (Twist 0-grade) in the grade column, further supporting it as being an enigma. I wonder what a letter would say.



.

[Patrick Hanna]

Dean, I think that's a treasure. I can't comment on its grade or appointments or any of that, but it's in such good shape. I think that's a beauty.

[Mike Franzen]

A 20 gauge lifter! That's a dream gun

[Carl Baird]

What a nice old Parker...so much character. As an aside, I've been rereading my DGJ volumes again. One thing I've noticed is so many of the articles on discoveries, rescues and restorations are, for the most part, on high end guns. I think it's sad that the vast majority of remaining doubles are not the rarest or the most lavish. I only wish they had featured more articles on rescues and restorations on the lower grades. My old 12 ga. stub twist means as much to me as any of my other guns. To me the gun must have a wealth of history behind it and I wish I knew its full story.

[Carl Baird]

Todd, I don't know for sure if my gun did come with checkering. As I stated earlier, the gun had a Tiger Maple stock and a walnut forend when I bought it. The maple stock was checkered with flat 16LPI. The original walnut stock may have been checkered, but maybe not. I assumed it was because the forend had checkering? My gun's serial # is in the very low 40XXX, and I thought it was the lowest of grades. Now I don't know.

[charlie cleveland]

my old lifter 8 gahas stub twist barrels..what surprized me was that stub twist is stouter in strength than some of the other composite steel....the 20 ga lifter is sure nice do nt figure there s to many of them out there...charlie

[Carl Baird]

Yes, on both accounts. Sat at my computer last night and did a bunch of reading on stub twist. It seems that it was considered tough stuff for composites. I love my pattern.
That 20 ga. is a gem. Have you ever fired your 8 ga.? Carl

[Chuck Bishop]

While doing a letter, I found an order from 1880 that had 2 guns listed as Stub Twist for barrel steel. Can't say I've ever found another order that listed Stub Twist before. They were 12ga. guns, one with PG, the other straight grip, price was $65 and $60. Looking at the price list to determine grade, it would be the 3rd listing up from the bottom which says "Fine English Twist, no engraving or checkering. Went to the stock book and both guns are listed as T0. Looks like Parker considered any twist as Fine English Twist, except for Plain Twist.

One other thing, I thought Parker used Belgium sourced barrels so why would the call it English Twist?

[Rick Losey]

One other thing, I thought Parker used Belgium sourced barrels so why would the call it English Twist?


maybe because it would sell better? Just as some Birmingham guns say London twist.

maybe - and this is pure guess- back then these were not origins - but patterns of the twist.

[Carl Baird]

Wow, thanks for the great information. Can I ask you for your opinions? When I bought the gun, it had the mismatch...original walnut forend and restocked tiger maple stock. I chose to have it restocked with plain walnut, keeping the forend as is. My reasoning was that I was better off with the walnut stock than the maple. I have not done anything to the barrels or receiver. They are all original. My question, am I better off with a new walnut stock than a beat up maple stock. Appearance is much improved, but what about value?

[Carl Baird]

Chuck, My gun is stamped T0!

[Dave Suponski]

Chuck, We know that Parker Bros. sourced barrel tubes from both England and Belgium. The English connection eventually faded away and Belgium became the primary source.


Carl, I think you are much better off with the replacement walnut stock.

[John Gardner]

I thought I had two w/o checkering but it seems I need stronger glasses. Here is the stock and forearm of 8036

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Seems as though I remember someone saying that Stub Twist was made from horse shoe nails, I guess Drew could shed some light on this, Gary

[Mark Landskov]

Carriage springs were another ingredient I seem to recall seeing in a recipe for Stub Twist barrels.

[Mills Morrison]

Stub twist is the best looking of the Twist variations, IMHO. Unless you count Bernard as twist. A stub twist Parker is on my wish list for someday.

[Carl Baird]

Yes your right. My limited readings suggests the nails were a good source of iron.
So does that mean they made a high quality twist barrel or just average. Thing is they seem to be kind of scarce.
My quest is more informational than anything else. One thing for sure, the pattern is bold, which I like.

[Dean Romig]

Chuck, do the records show 10165 as having Stub Twist barrels?

It does....




.

[Carl Baird]

Dean, anyway to guess on how many Stub Twist guns were made by Parker without research? I can't recall any listing in the Parker books of such information.

[Dean Romig]

Carl, I suspect there is no way to estimate the number of Stub Twist guns made by Parker Bros. In the "Grades" section of The Parker Story there are tables at the end of each of the grades giving a breakdown of how many of each gauge/barrel length/barrel steel were made and only the tables for Grade 1 guns list any guns with Stub Twist barrels. 10165 is a Grade 0 gun and is listed as a T0 (Twist barrels, 0-Grade) gun and I believe the only 20 ga. lifter with 26" Twist barrels in the 0-Grade tables is probably 10165.

So, if 10165 is listed as a T0 gun I suspect a lot of other Stub Twist barreled Parkers have also been lumped into the T0 category with no reference to "Stub Twist".

Just my HO.

[Kerilynn Viccione]

I'm not sure if this thread is still going, but I just read it asking about checkering (or lack of). If you're still looking for examples:

My Parker 12 ga. s/n 5670 says 'Plain Steel' on the top rib, and has no checkering on the stock.

[David Dwyer]

This is an early 20ga lifter. I believe the wood to be original

[charlie cleveland]

a lot of those guns listed as t o are in fact stub twist guns.. 1 of my 8 ga is listed as a t o in the parker bible but on the barrels it is listed stub twist....charlie