What do the records say...

[John Cinkoske]

About a Parker Bros. 20, S/N 171718? I've seen it, but not recently.
I'd like to know if they match the details I know.
I may be able to get pictures in a few weeks... :shock:

[Rick Losey]

the book says a 20 ga grade 0 26 inch plain twist barrels capped pistol grip stock

no extras


yes please - pictures when you get them

[edgarspencer]

Rick, It doesn't actually say Grade 0, merely Plain Twist, but many Grade 1 hammer guns had Twist as well as Laminated barrels. Who knows what grade it is till we see it. It has to be one of the highest SN# hammer guns, and most likely on an 0 frame. Certainly, I've never seen one so high, but have heard of special order hammer guns made in the early '20s. Sure hope the OP gets some pics. I can't wait!

[John Cinkoske]

"Parker Brothers Makers, Meriden Conn Parker Steel".
Is 'Parker Steel' a twist or laminate? Doesn't look like any I've seen.
Is there any factory reason it would have gorilla mainsprings? It's a bear to cock this one.
The owner calls it a P grade 'Fluted Frame'?
I'll not see him for awhile, but I will get photos.

[edgarspencer]

Parker Steel is a designation for the barrel steel used on the PH, and PHE. These Grade One guns also used Twist Steel. However, there are also Grade One hammer guns, and that's what the 'book' indicates 171718 to be.
Hammer springs on Parker locks are very strong, right out of the gate. I had an Austrian gunsmith friend of mine rework the springs in one of my guns and now they are very civilized, and I can cock both with my thumb on the way to the shoulder.

I'm wondering about the reference to 'flutes' as this usually pertains to the sculpting of the hammerless gun frame. The flutes on either side of the frame were changed from a longer flute to a short flute at about the same time as the safety button was changed.
The Serialization book has been known to contain errors, so you've got me wondering whether we're talking about a grade one hammer gun, or a grade one, P grade hammerless gun. The book says "PT, meaning barrel steel of plain twist, T, meaning Top lever Hammer gun, 0, meaning no options, such as special fore end, C, meaning capped pistol grip stock, 20, the gauge, 26, meaning the barrel length. Does this sound familiar?

[Dean Romig]

You're right Edgar. A T in the Action column indicates a Top lever.
The PT indicates the Grade 0 with Plain Twist barrels.... according to the Serialization book.

So, we know it is a hammer gun. If it was hammerless there would be a H in the action column.

[Bill Murphy]

Do you have a hammer gun or a hammerless gun. I assume the "flutes" are lightening cuts in the water table of the action, indicating a hammer gun. If you have an original 20 gauge hammer gun with Parker Steel barrels, you have a rare and unusual gun. However, we would need pictures to determine its originality.

[edgarspencer]

You're right Edgar. A T in the Action column indicates a Top lever.
The PT indicates the Grade 0 with Plain Twist barrels.... according to the Serialization book.

So, we know it is a hammer gun. If it was hammerless there would be a H in the action column. Except for the fact that certain guns, based upon their cost, not the extent of engraving, made them a Grade 1. (Such as a certain 16 gauge, 0 frame lifter, someone foolishly parted with) It would be exciting to think we're talking about a 20 gauge top lever hammer gun, based upon what the book says about the SN referenced in the first post, but the added comments re Parker Steel barrel legend, the owner reffering to P, and the knowledge the book has been 'off' in the past, I'm not sure what it really is.

Do you have a hammer gun or a hammerless gun. I assume the "flutes" are lightening cuts in the water table of the action, indicating a hammer gun. If you have an original 20 gauge hammer gun with Parker Steel barrels, you have a rare and unusual gun. However, we would need pictures to determine its originality.

Good point, Bill. I never thought of the lightening cuts as 'flutes' but I guess they are.

[Bill Murphy]

Late Grade 1 hammer guns, unlike earlier Grade 1 hammer guns, which were very scarce and referred to as only "Grade 1" and only marked as such, were stamped P, just like a hammerless Grade 1. Guns marked such are scarce. The original poster says the owner of this gun refers to it as a P Grade, probably because of its rare marking on the water table.

[edgarspencer]

This has to be the highest SN 20ga. Hammer Gun. There were a few 10ga guns and a series of 12ga guns up in the 179K range. I think I was only able to find one 16ga Grade 2 with a higher Sn than my GFH(Gun From Hell), but there were a few 0 and 1 Grades above my 76544.

[Dean Romig]

If it is a hammer gun with Parker Steel barrels it is likely to be a unique gun.

[edgarspencer]

Agreed. I would like to see the lugs and how the check hook was accommodated. I'm guessing its re barreled. If I recall, Tom Carter has a steel barreled 20ga. hammer gun.

[Dean Romig]

And I have a T/A hammer gun with Vulcan Steel barrels.

[John Cinkoske]

It is a top lever hammer gun with 26" barrels. By fluted frame I believe he means lightening cuts on the water table. Looks to have been done with a radius end mill cutter? When I see it next, he says I can get pictures.
Here's what to shoot (I think) Overall gun, closeup of action engraving, checkering, water table and underside of the barrels, legend on the barrels, side shot of the lugs, Straight on at the open breech, same for muzzles, stock, buttplate, forend, forend iron.
Not sure If I can get a shot of the inside of a lock.
Is there anything else I need to photograph?
Measure the distance between the firing pins?

[edgarspencer]

Sounds like you've done your homework. I would certainly think it's an 0 frame, so if you measure 1" between pins, that would confirm it.
If you think of it, get a sideways shot of the barrel lugs, and down on the water table.

[Bill Murphy]

No need for a picture inside the lock. Thanks.

[John Cinkoske]

I have a number of photos in my Photobucket of the 20 Gauge Top Lever Hammer gun in this thread, but can't seem to upload them.
Help? :banghead:

[Dean Romig]

I don't have any experience with photobucket - can someone help John with uploading pictures from photobucket?

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Sounds like a very interesting gun, Look forward to seeing the photos, especially the barrels, Gary

[Rick Losey]

John

When you have a picture open in photobucket there are series of links on the right

One of them is named IMG

Left click on that one. It should turn yellow and say "copied"

Then you can left click in a post here and select "paste"

The picture will link into your post

[John Cinkoske]

Okay, here goes...
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/DHEAD.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/DHEAD.jpg.html)

[John Cinkoske]

Another shot:
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/LEGEND2.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/LEGEND2.jpg.html)

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/BREECH.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/BREECH.jpg.html)

[John Cinkoske]

More:
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/LUG2.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/LUG2.jpg.html)

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/LUGSIDE.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/LUGSIDE.jpg.html)

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/LUG1.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/LUG1.jpg.html)

[John Cinkoske]

Hey this is easy...
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/FOREND.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/FOREND.jpg.html)

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/WTABLE.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/WTABLE.jpg.html)

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/BUTT.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/BUTT.jpg.html)

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/GRIPCAP.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/GRIPCAP.jpg.html)

[John Cinkoske]

Even more...
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/BELLY.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/BELLY.jpg.html)

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/MUZZLES.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/MUZZLES.jpg.html)

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/LEVER.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/LEVER.jpg.html)

This different color on the buttplate tang is barely noticeable. The photo really brings it out. Is this normal?
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/BUTTOP.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/BUTTOP.jpg.html)

[John Cinkoske]

More

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/RSIDE.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/RSIDE.jpg.html)

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/MacNaughton360/Parker%20Hammer%2020/LSIDE.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/MacNaughton360/media/Parker%20Hammer%2020/LSIDE.jpg.html)

The gun seems to have 13-1/2 LOP, 1-7/8 DAC, 3-1/8 DAH, the barrels are 26-3/32 long, and I'm told they are bored backward. The gun was ordered by or for a woman.

[George M. Purtill]

Very very nice.

[Dean Romig]

Now that is one unique Parker!

Very nice and very desirable.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

I'll say so! with Parker Special steel barrels! none the less, If that horse ever needs a new barn to stay in I know the place! Gary

[Dave Suponski]

What a great gun. Thank you for the pictures. Never say never.....

[Bill Murphy]

20 gauge hammer guns are rare. Fluid steel barrel hammer guns are rare. Marked P Grade hammer guns are rare. What a nice gun. By the way, Edgar, I own the 16 gauge hammer gun you mention. It is number 172,662 as I recall. John, thanks for the pictures.

[Mark Ouellette]

John,

Thank you for sharing your wonderful Parker with those of use who are less fortunate! :cool:

Mark

[Fred Verry]

John, thank you very much for sharing. If you could get a closeup picture of the serial number on the frame water table next to the lightening cutouts and post it here, it may prove to give even more insight into your gun's origin. It appears as though the serial number was over stamped on top of some other numbers or characters. It looks like it could be a frame that Parker may have "repurposed" or renumbered to build your gun. Very cool gun!

[John Cinkoske]

All, Thanks for the complements. It belongs to a friend, not me (I wish)
Snapcap, Click on the photo you want to enlarge. Hold down CONTROL and roll your mouse wheel to enlarge the photo. After viewing it, hold CONRTOL and hit 0 (zero) to restore the default size.

[Bill Murphy]

Listed in the SB as a 20 gauge top action, so any restamp was done at the factory.

[Craig Larter]

Thanks so much for posting the pictures of a very interesting gun. It's amazing how we continue to learn about new and interesting guns every week.

[Jim DiSpagno]

Wayne here are pics of the 20 ga steel barrel Hammergun in question

[Wayne Owens]

Thank you Jim. What a beauty! Was a PGCA letter obtained?

[Dean Romig]

Jim, did you post the pictures to this thread?





.

[Jim DiSpagno]

No Dean they were from the original poster and Gary asked me to bring it to the forefront

[Wayne Owens]

I would love to see the letter for this gun.

[edgarspencer]

Wayne here are pics of the 20 ga steel barrel Hammergun in question

Could you post a link to the pictures ?

[Jim DiSpagno]

Edgar they are on this thread a few pages back

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

This gun came to auction during the Southern , Jim was gracious and bid for me I was lucky and had the winning bid, Sent for a letter, talked to Chuck this morning he is recouping nicely, he said the letter will be forth coming including the request for Parker Steel barrels 26" long, The gun has lighting cuts and is stamped P Interestingly I have another 20 ga TL in the 169,000 range stamped with a P also. Interesting since the records don't show any P, grade 20 ga guns. Again never say never when it comes to Parker guns, Gary

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

In the last post I said the records do not show any 20 ga P grade guns I should have said 20 ga hammer guns, Gary

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

here is the letter for the gun

[Kevin McCormack]

Very interesting Gary - for years I owned SN 171751, a very high-condition 12 ga. DHE 30" gun, SFE, PG, SKBP. Fascinating that a PH top action 20 ga hammer gun was produced probably within weeks of my gun. Two classic design-era ships crossing in the night.

[charlie cleveland]

very interesting gun....a low dollar gun when new and a very high dollar gun now.... charlie