Parker Live Bird Gun??

[Bruce L. Cohen]

Hi Guys and Gals: I am a new, old member, I was a member and droped out when I sold my gun collection. Now getting back into it and picked up a really interesting Parker VHE. I have all the books and they dont answer the question. I sent the serial number to the group and they dont have anything on the gun.
So here we go. VHE, 32 inch bbls. beavertail forarm. No 2 frame double triggers and NO SAFTY. Never had one as there is engaving (factory) over where it would have been. Serial #208616 so about a 1924 gun. Am I correct and this was built as a dedicated Live Bird Gun. Please opine.

[Dave Noreen]

Maybe! Maybe not! Could be a trap gun or just some old timer's duck gun. Many old timers didn't like a safety. Nash Buckingham had no safety on BoWhoop, and his HDE at Henry Bartholomew's estate.

[Bruce L. Cohen]

Thanks for the quick reply. As there are no records for this gun I guess I will never know. I do know or believe that less than 170 something of all VH production was ordered with a Beavertail Forend. Could not find out how many of all Parkers were ordered whithout a saftey from the factory. I know many had them removed and a plug put in but this one is definitly factory ordered. Oh well, anoher mystery unsolved in my life.
Thanks again for getting back to me with your oppinion so quickly.
bruce4guns@aol.com

[paul adams]

Forgive me for momentarily stealing your post but what features does a "live bird gun" have or is it just a "loose title"?

[Dean Romig]

Paul, it has become a 'loose title' of late and seems to be applied to any gun without a safety. A true live bird or inanimate target competition gun or "race gun" often had other defining features as well as provenance to an early competition shooter.

[Bruce L. Cohen]

All: Like the man said an overused term. But! What shoud be said is that guns with certain configurations such as long tubes (especially 32 in and over), Factory Bevertail Forearms, and especially factory configured and ordered as this one was (engraving over the area where the saftey would be) double triggers and a high stock, is more than likely a designade live bird or trap gun. While duck hunters might want a gun like this it is more than likely that it was ordered by a live bird shooter or trap shooter. They did not trust the single trigger as it doubled sometime and they did not want to worry about taking off a safty and loosing a bird because they forgot. They wanted the long barrel because it helps with swing through, the beavertail added weight up front to help with this also and to keep ones hand of a very hot barrel. The high stock helped them shoot under the bird and see it sooner. If the records existed for this gun and it was sold to a person and not a store I would bet he would be able to be found to be either a live bird shooter or a trap shooter on as most were both.

[Bill Murphy]

I have not seen a Parker order that specified flyer shooting as the purpose the gun would be used for. However, I have seen many orders that identify the buyer as a known competition shooter in the pigeon ring. Two other rare features that identify a "Pigeon Gun" are "no extension rib" and "flat rib". However, it is rare to find all mentioned features in the same gun.

[Rick Losey]

a couple thoughts - not matured enough to be opinions

isn't 1924 a bit late for the hey day of live bird shooting?

and since it was (and is) largely a big money game to play - wouldn't someone special ordering a live bird gun likely order a higher grade than a V?


my guess is a trap gun - cheapskates that they are :rotf:

[Bruce L. Cohen]

Bill: I thank you so much for your input. I am not familiar with the term "no extension rib" and am wondering if by flat rib you mean the standard rib and not a raised or ventilated rib. My gun has all the features described above in my post and a standard rib (flat?). Could you please advise if you mean standard rib when you say flat and what "no extension rib" means as I have never heard the term before does that also mean a non raised or ventilated rib?
Thanks for your knowledge. Shame I will never know who this gun was built for as the records dont exist:(

[Dave Suponski]

Bruce, A flat rib is exactly as Bill describes. Your gun is most likely a concave rib. No rib extention means the lack of the "Dolls head" that fit into a mortise in the top of the frame.

[Bruce L. Cohen]

Mr. Osthaus: Well I don't actually agree with that completely. I have shoot boxed birds as late as two years ago. There is actually a very large world wide community of folks who still shoot "Fliers" and it is still legal in many states and outside the US in many Latin American and European Countries. It is done in a quite way and yes it is a big money game and most of the shooters shoot big money guns. Now in 1924 as now not everyone who shot boxed birds was a millionare. I imagine the Parker VHE i have cost in excess of $ 60 with the bevertail forend and ejectors and I imagine in 2015 dollars that is a lot of money for the average guy. Pigion shooting was common in every state back then and there were alot of clubs around still. Not saying your wrong, just saying it could have been a trapshooters gun or it could have belonged to a guy who did both but on a local or regional level.
That's the great thing about strange guns, absent the record of whom it was sold to, I will never know just guess.
As to the fancy shooting irons there is a very large shoot held in PA each year and the winner four or five years ago was shooting a Remington Pump Gun. Imagine that:)

[Bruce L. Cohen]

Got the rib thing now. Thanks all . You are correct mine is concave and does have the dolls head.

[Dave Noreen]

In his book Pigeon Shooting, by Blue Rock, Capt. A.W. Money argued that 30-inch barrels were the perfect length for the ring.

The International Flyer Championship was held at Kansas City from at least 1917 to 1941.

Homer Clark, Jr. won at Madrid, Spain, in 1949, shooting a big No. 5E NID Ithaca with vent rib, beavertail and single trigger.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Ithaca%20and%20Lefever/HomerClarkJrMadridSpain194901_zps50684be1.jpg

[Rick Losey]

i think most will take the trap comment as the humor it was meant to be, although the Remington pump does sort of fit my point.

i know flier shoots continue and I know some here still do it- but - its not nearly as common or to the level of public exposure it was before the last century in this country- which is where a V was likely sold.

still sounds like an interesting gun- and still hope you can get some pictures up

[Mark Ouellette]

I am sure that this and most all guns without safeties MAY have been used for shooting pigeons in a ring. Chances are however that more likely they were not. We see 20 gauge Parkers without safetys claimed to be "Live Bird Guns". Were those built for the pigeon ring or a Texas dove field?

It is more likely that a long barreled SxS side built without a safety was a completion gun for trap than for pigeons. There were certainly more clay pigeon shooters than live pigeon shooters.

Also, remember when seat belts in cars came about? How many people refused to were them? Heck, some still do not wear them and get fined for not wearing them despite the documented controlled test results and empirical evidence from traffic accident survivors in favor of the good the belts provide.

Some of those old shooters might have hated safeties as much as I hate a car that locks it doors automatically! A hundred years ago I would have been the type of SOB who ordered a gun without a safety just as I would NEVER buy a car or truck that locked its doors automatically!

Sorry to bring logic and my personal lack thereof into this discussion,
Mark

[Frank Cronin]

No rib extention means the lack of the "Dolls head" that fit into a mortise in the top of the frame.

What advantage does the lack of a dolls head provide in pigeon, trap, competition shooting?

Curious....:corn:

[Daryl Corona]

I have a 30", VH 20, ordered in 1904 by noted Parker shooter W.R. Crosby. It was ordered without a safety and the notation "Send Bill- Compliments of Parker Brothers". It is choked IM/F. I have shot live pigeon smallbore events and this could have possibly been used for this but more than likely it was used for clays.

[Craig Larter]

My TH Keller gun is a 1903 DH, PG 14"LOP, 1 1/2x 2 1/2, 7 3/4 to 8 lbs RH Full, LH Extra Full, chamber 2 3/4", no safety. From my readings the classic pigeon gun of the era was 30", 32" and higher stock dimensions became the norm as shoots turned to trap clay bird competitions. http://parkerguns.org/forums/album.php?albumid=470&pictureid=5153
I am not sure if I am correct---what say you?

[Kevin McCormack]

Dave, the forend on Homer Clark's gun is the most monstrous BTFE I think I have ever seen on a SxS gun. It could be a design from one of Josef Fanzoi's three-barreled SxSxO/U guns! Our mutual friend who runs the local pigeon ring recently purchased one, BTW - at the last 2 gun shows, it achieved "Pat The Bunny" status!

[Dave Suponski]

Scott, It is my belief that having no dolls head speeded up the loading/unloading process in competiton guns.

[Dean Romig]

Scott, It is my belief that having no dolls head speeded up the loading/unloading process in competiton guns.


Because the shooter was less likely to catch some of his own flesh or even his necktie in there when closing the gun.

[Rich Anderson]

I don't get how no dolls head can speed up loading. In either trap or live birds you call for the shot/bird so reloading speed would be a non issue wouldn't it?
I have a BHE with no safety, 32 inch bbls (damascuss) choked full and real full, straight stock with a high Monte Carlo comb and a splinter forearm. Is this live bird gun? Beats me I do like to shoot it though.

[Jeff Kuss]

This is vh 20 ga.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Jeff - I see where the mortise was filled in - do we know if Parker Bros. ever made frames without the mortise at all?

[Bill Murphy]

Those I have seen appear to have never been cut for the doll's head, or the cut was well hidden when filled in.

[Jeff Kuss]

My DH 12 ga. has no safety and no doll head. Even though it is engraved over, you can make out where they filled in the mortise with a loop.
My Trojan without an extension does not have a mortise.

[Rich Anderson]

Because the shooter was less likely to catch some of his own flesh or even his necktie in there when closing the gun.

I'm glad I don't wear a tie when I shoot:rotf: and I always wear gloves:)
My BHE has a Dolls head and I haven't lost any flesh yet...thankfully.

[Drew Hause]

Toward the end of 1901, Fred Gilbert received his new Parker DH SN 103649; no dolls head, no ejectors, 32`barrels, ordered by Russia Klien in Iowa.

I do not know the dimensions of his previous BH (which was/is in the safekeeping of a PGCA member) or the new DH, but after winning the DuPont Cup in 1895 the “Fred Gilbert Specifications” were drop at comb of 1 3/8 inches; at the heel, 2 inches; length from trigger to heel, 14 1/4 inches; trigger to toe 14 1/2 inches; and trigger to center of butt 14 inches; with a full pistol grip and 30-inch full choke barrels.

Did pretty good with the DH :) High average in both 1902 and 1903

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/382579735.jpg

Daryl: lots of information about "Tobacco Bill" Crosby about 1/2 way down here. He didn't use a Parker in competition until 1906
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/document/d/1k2_50HPC18lm2BZmH5SlgYSptcngORnmLTZ5iiW-cpc/preview

[Scott Janowski]

With no dolls head you could not have ejectors, am I right?
So this would not speed loading as you would have to pick the empty's out.

[Dean Romig]

Yup. Like I said.... flesh and neckties.

[Rick Losey]

With no dolls head you could not have ejectors, am I right?
So this would not speed loading as you would have to pick the empty's out.

ok - educate me - why would that be true? there is no mechanical connect that I know of

[Dave Suponski]

Rick, The ends of the shell ejectors ride in a channel on the rib extention. That is why you see the screw head on the end of the dolls head rib extention on ejector guns.

But many live bird/competition guns were ordered as extractor guns. So I hold true to my original statement that the buyers didn't want the dolls head in the way.

[Dean Romig]

The ejectors ride in slot cut into the underside of the doll's head and stop against a stop plate mortised into the end of the doll's head.

[Dave Suponski]

I just said that...As an aside. Have you ever extracted shells from an extractor gun without a dolls head? It is much easier without that infernal contraption in the way....:)

[Daryl Corona]

Thanks very much Drew. On page 67, my gun is mentioned exactly as it is in the research letter. Really cool.

[Dave Noreen]

Interesting that old time live bird shooters would order Parker Bros. doubles without a rib extension. Certainly couldn't do that with an L.C. Smith or Lefever, and I've never seen a Remington hammerless without a rib extension. A "third bite" was often a feature of English Pigeon Guns.

[Bill Murphy]

The third bite in British guns is not on the breech face and is not in the way of shell extraction. All "no doll's head" Parker pigeon guns are extractor guns for the reason explained by Dave Suponski.

[Bill Murphy]

Daryl, please explain "my gun" and "page 67". Do you own one of the guns previously owned by a famous shooter? Which shooter, which gun?

[Daryl Corona]

Bill, see post #17 on this thread. Click on Drew's link on post #28 and scroll down to page 67 where WR Crosby is discussed.

[Rich Anderson]

I guess I don't understand why speed of loading is even a consideration in shooting either trap or live birds. Can someone explain this to me?

[Bill Murphy]

These guys who ordered these guns were trapshooters. That should explain a lot.

[Tom DeZao]

Gents,

So different configuration same question: A 20ga 1924 VHE with 28" tubes engraving over where safety would be, no high stock and certainly not a trap gun? Was there a run on these orders in 1924?:)

[Dave Noreen]

More likely a plantation Quail gun. Carried empty in the saddle scabbard and only loaded when one dismounts and walks in for the flush.

[Dean Romig]

Such guns are not common but there are a good number of them. "Plantation Quail Gun" as with "Live Bird Gun" can be used to ascribe a specific purpose for which a Parker was ordered but we have seen otherwise in the 'live bird gun' category and the same holds true for a 'plantation quail gun'. I know of a certain CHE 20 gauge with a straight grip and 30" Damascus barrels that was ordered with "no safety" and was shipped to Canada. I own a GHE 16 0-frame with 28" Damascus barrels that had the safety removed, obviously by an early owner, the tang filed and a rectangular cap of gold or brass with the gentleman's initial in Olde English Script soldered in place there.

In such cases, I think the owner was just sick and tired of missing shots because he forgot to flick the safety off. He was likely a gentleman who hunted over dogs and only loaded his gun when he was about to walk in on the point with gun at the ready and muzzles up. Not necessarily on a romantic plantation quail hunt but, as well, in the North Woods for ruffed grouse, woodcock, or any of the fowls of the stubble fields.

[Tom DeZao]

Thxs for the feedback Gents the origins of the "no safety"order is very interesting!

[Christopher Lien]

Some time ago on another thread I had posted on this subject. Dave S from CT has it right.

Frank Parmalee, a high average competition shooter from Nebraska ordered his Parker's sans Dolls-Head, and he was quoted in the early gunning pulps concerning his preference of Not having that particular obstruction when loading and unloading. Below are a few top images of a Parker DH from about the same time period Frank would have ordered his "No Safety-No Dolls head" Parker. This particular DH shown below spent some time in the Pacific Northwest, and if I remember correctly, it now resides in Maryland...

Best, CSL
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http://www.webpak.net/~cslien/1DHnoDollsHeadA.jpg

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http://www.webpak.net/~cslien/1DHnoDollsHeadB.jpg

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http://www.webpak.net/~cslien/1ParmaleeYoung1899.jpg

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[Bill Murphy]

Yup, that fine gun is now in Maryland, in the hands of a true Pigeon Gun collector. By the way, I went to look at a way interesting Pigeon Gun today. DHE 32" vent rib, ejectors, late Miller trigger, original beavertail, no safety. This is the latest no safety pigeon gun I have seen in fifty some years of collecting. Late 234,000 range. I was tempted except for the stock which has an adjustable mechanism and no drop points. The price was high and the gun was not completely original. What do you think?

[Dave Suponski]

Thanks Chris. That D grade is very interesting as I think all the "No dolls head" guns I have seen have some sort of tell tale inlay in the dolls head mortise in the frame.

[Christopher Lien]

By the way, I went to look at a way interesting Pigeon Gun today. DHE 32" vent rib, ejectors, late Miller trigger, original beavertail, no safety. This is the latest no safety pigeon gun I have seen in fifty some years of collecting. Late 234,000 range. I was tempted except for the stock which has an adjustable mechanism and no drop points. The price was high and the gun was not completely original. What do you think?
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Appears to be an interesting Comp gun Murph, you know how the Trap & Live-Bird guys liked to modify their guns... It all sounds good, and as always, I like the "Miller-Trigger" part of the equation... What is a high price?... And, do you have photos to share of the Late 234,000 range "DHE 32" Vent/Rib Parker?

Best, CSL
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[Christopher Lien]

Having received some questions about the Parmalee photo, below are some particulars on this original 1899 image... Charles "Sparrow" Young is on Parmalee's immediate left... With thanks to "Dr. Drew Hause" for his continued research contributions... Overall image & text below...

Best, CSL
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"May 4-1899-Lincoln, Neb.--The world's record for a squad of five men, shooting at 20 targets each, made at Peru, Ind., May 3, was equaled by a squad at the Nebraska State shoot by the 5 man team of George Rogers, Lincoln, Neb.; A. B. Daniels, Denver, Col.; W. S. Duer, Hastings, Neb.; C. A. Young, Springfield, O., and F. S. Parmelee, Omaha, Neb. made a world's record of 100 straight."
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http://www.webpak.net/~cslien/1ParmaleeOA1899.jpg
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[Dean Romig]

Chris, could the gentleman in the dark jacket in the center of the group photo be the same fellow in the picture you provided to Austin for the cover of Vol. 16, Issue 4?

[John Davis]

I've posted this before but thought it might add to this discussion.


November 23, 1901, The Sportsmen’s Review, in an article written by Gaucho entitled, “A Few Remarks on Some Celebrated Guns,” du Bray lists some prominent shooters and the type of guns they used. Those who made the Parker their choice of weapon were as follows:

Name --- Make -- Barrel Length -- Weight -- DAC -- DAH -- Stock Length -- Grip
W. E. Beesom -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 15" -- 1 7/16 -- 2 1/4 -- 14 ½ -- St.
W. L. Boyd -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 14" – 1 ½ -- 2 1/8 -- 14 1/8 – St.
C. W. Budd -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 15" -- 1 ½ -- 2 -- 14 --
P. W. H. Colquitt -- Parker -- 30" -- 7 12"-- 1 1/4 -- 2 1/4 -- 14 3/4 -- St.
V. C. Dagan -- Parker -- 30" -- 8' -- 1 3/8 -- 3 -- 14 ½ -- P.
O. R. Dickey -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 14" -- 1 5/8 -- 2 1/4 -- 14 -- St.
E. E. Ellis -- Parker -- 32" -- 8' -- 1 5/8 -- 2 5/8 -- 14 ½ -- P.
F. C. Etheridge -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 6" -- 2 1/8 -- 3 1/8 -- 14 -- ½ P.
A. H. Frank -- Parker -- 30" – 7' 12" -- 1 1/8 -- 2 3/8 -- 14 -- St.
Fred Gilbert -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 14" -- 1 3/8 -- 2 -- 14 1/4 -- P.
W. A. Hammond -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 15" -- 1 5/8 – 2 3/8 -- 14 3/4 -- St.
Jno. W. Harrison -- Parker -- 28" -- 6' -- 1 ½ -- 2 ½ -- 14 -- P.
Sam Hutchings -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 14" -- 1 ½ -- 2 ½ -- 14 ½ -- St.
J. F. Jordan -- Parker -- 26" -- 5 3/4 -- 2 -- 3 -- 14 -- St.
H. J. Lyons -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 10" -- 1 1/4 -- 1 7/8 -- 14 1/8 -- St.
Geo. S. McAlpin -- Parker -- -- 7' 6" -- 1 1/4 -- 1 3/4 -- 14 ½ -- St.
J. R. Malone -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 15"-- 1 ½ – 2 -- 15 -- St.
R. R. Merrill -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 14" -- 1 5/8 -- 2 5/8 -- 14 5/8 -- ½ P.
F. S. Parmelee -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 12" -- 1 ½ -- 2 -- 14 ½ -- P.
C. M. Powers -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 15" -- 1 1/8 -- 2 1/4 -- 14 3/8 -- St.
W. C. Rawson -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 15" -- 1 3/8 -- 2 -- 14 1/8 -- St.
R. S. Rhoads -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 15" -- 1 1/8 -- 2 1/8 -- 14 ½ -- P.
C. E. Robbins -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 11" -- 1 ½ -- 2 ½ -- 14 1/4 -- P.
Frank Simpson -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 14" -- 1 ½ -- 2 3/8 -- 14 3/8 -- St.
Franklin Stearns -- Parker -- 32" -- 7' 15" -- 1 ½ -- 2 ½ -- 15 -- ½ P.
E. H. Tripp -- Parker -- 30" -- 8' -- 1 ½ -- 2 5/8 -- 14 ½ -- St.
S. A. Tucker -- Parker -- 30" -- 7' 14" -- 1 ½ -- 2 -- 14 -- St.
D. A. Upson -- Parker -- 26" -- 7' -- 1 1/4 -- 2 -- 14 1/4 -- ½ P.
R. Van Gilder -- Parker -- 27" -- 6" 2' -- 1 5/8 -- 3 1/8 -- 14 1/4 -- St.
Wm. Wagner - Parker -- 30" -- 7" 10' -- 1 1/4 -- 2 1/4 -- 14 --- St.
Dr. F. C. Wilson -- Parker -- 32" -- 7" 10' -- 1 ½ -- 2 1/4 -- 15 -- St.
Leroy Woodward -- Parker -- 30" -- 7" 13' -- 1 3/8 -- 2 -- 14 1/4 -- P.

[John Davis]

The grip of choice for Budd was Prince of Wales.

[Dean Romig]

I see a number of 1/2 P - what designation would a POW have?

I'm surprised most shot 30" barrels and no 34" at all.

[Bill Murphy]

The gun Chris posted pictures of shows no sign of a filled in doll's head from either end, even under magnification. The asking price for the vent rib DHE with the adjustable stock is $6999.00. There is just nowhere to go from there, considering the stock is trash, and the receiver is recolored.

[John Davis]

Budd's grip was designated "PW". I assumed that stood for Prince of Wales. Not sure what the difference is though between the POW and the half pistol.

[Christopher Lien]

The gun Chris posted pictures of shows no sign of a filled in doll's head from either end, even under magnification. The asking price for the vent rib DHE with the adjustable stock is $6999.00. There is just nowhere to go from there, considering the stock is trash, and the receiver is recolored.
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You are right Bill, That price is a bit steep considering the overall condition.

Best, CSL
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[Christopher Lien]

Chris, could the gentleman in the dark jacket in the center of the group photo be the same fellow in the picture you provided to Austin for the cover of Vol. 16, Issue 4?
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Dean, similar looking fella, but the not same guy. However the man in the dark jacket is holding a higher grade Parker. Below is a close-up image of his straight grip DH?, which appears to have a SB-plate...

Best, CSL
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http://www.webpak.net/~cslien/1ParmaleeParkerA.jpg

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[bill grill]

Nice thread whoever referred to trapshooters as being cheap must either be one or knows a few. :)

[Rich Anderson]

Bill please check your PM

[Bruce L. Cohen]

OK. So now I have heard it all on the live bird, trap, configuration. I have looked at the bevertail and it is checkered properly for a Parker, but of a higher grade than V. This gun also sports a rounded pistol grip instead of the Standard flat configuration . The forend has the proper bbl. lug for a beavertail and the stock looks original to the gun. I would upload pics but tried and have failedd.
Advise on how to do that so you gents can get a look and opine on this gun would be appreciated.
Bruce

[Bruce L. Cohen]

All: Thanks. The gun has a Beavertail and I checked it has the proper bbl lug for that. The checkering seems of a higher grade than a VH and the buttstock has a round nob pistol grip stock not the standard Flat nob. All that being said the stock and checkering looks original to the gun. I would down load pics but tried and cant figure it out could any one tell me how to do it so I can get some pics up.
Thanks

[Bruce L. Cohen]

Gents: How do you post pics here. Been trying but cant figure it out. Want to share pics of this VHE. Gun has a Round Nob Pistol Grip. But the Stock looks original and the checkering looks Parker. Also the Bevertail checkering seems to be of a higher grade than V but the forend iron is the proper iron for a Beavertail. Gun is a mystery.

[Robin Lewis]

go to www.parkerguns.org and click on the FAQ link on the left side of the page. In the FAQ page, scroll to the bottom and you will find two links to short videos on posting picture to the forum.

[Bruce L. Cohen]

OK. Thanks and tried that but for some reason my computer will not download the video.
I will keep trying:(

[John Dallas]

Bruce - If you can email them to me, I'll post them here for you.

jdallas1 <at> msn.com

[Bruce L. Cohen]

Thanks so much. Just took about 6 or 7 and sent them to you. Your help and the help of all the guys on this forum and in this assosciation is spectacular. I know that someone jeweled the attaching iron on the forend. Other than that and the fact that I have never seen a Prince Of Wales pistol grip on a Parker (although I know they made them) the gun wood looks original. The checkering is of a higher grade than a V but certainly appears to be factory (proper borders). The attaching iron is proper for a beavertail and as you can see by the pics the gun was ordered from the factory without a safty as it has factory engraving over the slot. The guns serial number will not letter unfortunatly.
Thanks to you and to all the guys who have given of their time and knowledge on this string.
Bruce

[John Dallas]

Here are Bruce's pix:

[John Dallas]

A few more:

[Bruce L. Cohen]

Big D: What a gentelman. Thanks so much now maybe I can get an idea of what I have from real experts instead of just guessing.
Again thanks to all.
Bruce

[Dean Romig]

The buttstock looks original to me but I would be surprised if that forend wood is original or even a replacement by Parker Bros. or Remington. I can plainly see that the forend iron is correct for a BTFE and the checkering is suggestive of an original - but the shape and contour of the forend wood causes raised eyebrows.

One more thing... I don't see any ejector rods protruding from the front of the frame knuckle. Maybe the angle of the camera is the reason?

[Bruce L. Cohen]

Dean: Thanks for you input. The gun is clearly a special order gun. Prince of Wales grip and no safety. The forend iron as you point out is correct. I expect that you are correct, but if the gun was special order then anything is possible.
Bruce

[Dean Romig]

I agree Bruce and we have seen some really strangely shaped beavertails and greatly exaggerated cheek risers on Parkers but you can count them on one hand and the order books support the configuration of those guns as they are today.

[Bill Murphy]

That forearm is absolutely strange, but I would buy that gun.

[Drew Hause]

Come on Bill :) THIS is strange :shock:

Feb. 1915 Forest & Stream
http://books.google.com/books?id=lRMcAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA115&dq

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/410494177.jpg

[Dean Romig]

There's one even stranger in an early Parker Pages.

[Bruce L. Cohen]

Guys: Thanks so much for your input. As there are no records for the gun, I will continue to believe based on the color and the overall feel and checkering that this is the original forend. I am going to sell it and wanted to give an accurate description. So I guess I will have to say "I believe" instead of I " warrent". Any one have an idea of the value?
Bruce