cold weather powders

[Paul Harm]

Was shooting 5-stand last night and it was 3 degrees out - kind of nippy. About half way through I noticed my gun sounded a little weak. I was trying a new powder to me - American Select. So I had a friend step out the door and try one, and one loaded with Promo. Worked great. So we put one of each outside for 15 minutes and tried again - both were weak in recoil and report. Gonna try again in a day or two but this time I will load them a little hotter [ 1300 fps ] and also some 700X and maybe some Nitro 100.

[Pete Lester]

Paul you may want to try a hotter primer in such weather, say a Federal 209A vs. a Winchester 209 or Remington STS 209.

[Paul Harm]

I only have the Cheddites - about 8000.

[John Dallas]

My experience is that slow burning powders suffer more in cold weather. Keep the shells inside your coat, or wait for spring

[Ron Gebhart]

Glad to hear someone else is out shooting in the cold! It's required here in Alaska!
Pete's advice on the hot primer is right on. Predator rifles at -20 and below function way better with magnum primers, even in the smaller cases like 222. Powder doesn't seem to make as much difference as the primer. I would be interested in hearing how much difference you find the powder choice makes with the shotgun. I haven't experienced problems with my shotgun, but probably haven't had the shells out of my pocket long enough to get really cold.
Ron

[Paul Harm]

Might be wrong, but don't think Promo or Select are slow burning powders. And, they had been in the heated club house, went in my shooting coat pocket, and the 5-stand is enclosed but not heated. Anyways, tonight I'm going over for a meeting and will step out and try the 700X, Nitro, and the two hotter loads after they sit out for 10 or 15 minutes.

[scott kittredge]

I shoot 700-x in all but my heavy 10 ga and 12 ga loads. works great even a 2 to 3 below 0. i use15 grs in my 12 ga for 3/4 oz to 1 oz and 19 to 23 in my 10 ga loads from 1 oz to 1 1/4 oz

[Pete Lester]

Might be wrong, but don't think Promo or Select are slow burning powders. And, they had been in the heated club house, went in my shooting coat pocket, and the 5-stand is enclosed but not heated. Anyways, tonight I'm going over for a meeting and will step out and try the 700X, Nitro, and the two hotter loads after they sit out for 10 or 15 minutes.

Paul all 12ga target load powders are on the fast side on the burn rate chart. Of the four you mentioned Nitro100 is the fastest. Promo is the same as Red Dot, fast, and American Select a notch slower (better for 12ga 1 1/8 ounce) and close to Green Dot.

What you haven't told us is what the published pressures of your reloads are and that is the most critical aspect of cold weather loads. If you are shooting sub 8000 psi in very cold weather it invites problems. If you search around with Google most advice is use a hot primer like the 209A and get your pressures in the 10,000 range.

Increasing the pressure could be change the primer, increase the powder charge or shoot a heavier load.

You never see people shooting the promotional four pack loadings of Federal or Winchester having a problem in cold weather, they are high pressure loads.

Of course in a few years Global Warming will make it so none of us have to worry about cold weather shooting :rotf:

Until then there is point where I stop working in real cold weather before the shells give me a problem.

[Paul Harm]

I don't want 10K pressures and yes that is a problem. Didn't seem to have it before, but then I didn't shoot last winter [ back problems ] and my memory is so short I can't remember two winters ago. Anyway, tried again last night and the 700X loaded to 8000psi seemed ok so that's what I'll go with.

[Pete Lester]

I don't want 10K pressures and yes that is a problem. Didn't seem to have it before, but then I didn't shoot last winter [ back problems ] and my memory is so short I can't remember two winters ago. Anyway, tried again last night and the 700X loaded to 8000psi seemed ok so that's what I'll go with.

What were the pressures of the non 700-x loads, were they real low like 6 or 5K? I don't believe it's the 700-x making the difference, it's because it's a higher pressure than what you had been shooting.

I don't think chamber pressure is static, pressure measurements are taking at something close to room temperature. A shell that works fine in the summer and does not in the winter is I suspect producing a lower pressure in the cold temps. What is published as a 10K load is probably lower in single digits temperatures. I wonder if there are tests done to confirm this.

[Pete Lester]

Here are a couple of pertinent articles.

The Curmudgeon at Ballistic Products says to increase pressure in cold weather.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi/articleindex/articles/curmudgeon_articles/060329_hotcoldpowder.htm

http://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/why-winter-requires-ammo-changes.html

[scott kittredge]

[QUOTE=Pete Lester;155506]What were the pressures of the non 700-x loads, were they real low like 6 or 5K? I don't believe it's the 700-x making the difference, it's because it's a higher pressure than what you had been shooting.

in the 12 ga my 700-x loads are from 5000 psi to 6500 psi and they seem to shoot just fine. i shot 6 rounds of trap and skeet on new years day at 13 to 20 degree temps. i had 1 bad shell and i think i tried to get one to many loads out of it, the crimp was not tight. i like 700-x and i have had good luck with it for the last 40 years. i load STS and win AA hulls maybe that's better to load with for that type of powder???

[Pete Lester]

[QUOTE=Pete Lester;155506]What were the pressures of the non 700-x loads, were they real low like 6 or 5K? I don't believe it's the 700-x making the difference, it's because it's a higher pressure than what you had been shooting.

in the 12 ga my 700-x loads are from 5000 psi to 6500 psi and they seem to shoot just fine. i shot 6 rounds of trap and skeet on new years day at 13 to 20 degree temps. i had 1 bad shell and i think i tried to get one to many loads out of it, the crimp was not tight. i like 700-x and i have had good luck with it for the last 40 years. i load STS and win AA hulls maybe that's better to load with for that type of powder???

What are the component combinations? I was looking at the IMR reloading center and they have 3/4 and 1 ounce loads in 12ga but no 7/8 loadings which is really weird. All the 3/4 ounce loads with 700-X with AA hull in 12ga were 7700 psi and up.

[scott kittredge]

[QUOTE=scott kittredge;155510]

What are the component combinations? I was looking at the IMR reloading center and they have 3/4 and 1 ounce loads in 12ga but no 7/8 loadings which is really weird. All the 3/4 ounce loads with 700-X with AA hull in 12ga were 7700 psi and up.

dupont hand loaders guide
AA hull
1 oz lead shot
rem 209p primer
16 grs 700-x
cb110012 wad
1110 fps at 5000 psi
there are 7/8ths oz loads in same book at 4600 psi
this is way i like 700-x so much
load from 20 ga. to 10 ga.
low pressers
small amounts of powder to loads
and VERY CLEAN burning

[Pete Lester]

[QUOTE=Pete Lester;155511]

dupont hand loaders guide
AA hull
1 oz lead shot
rem 209p primer
16 grs 700-x
cb110012 wad
1110 fps at 5000 psi
there are 7/8ths oz loads in same book at 4600 psi
this is way i like 700-x so much
load from 20 ga. to 10 ga.
low pressers
small amounts of powder to loads
and VERY CLEAN burning

Are you using the Remington STS primer? The same load (14.5) grains with a Win 209 producing 7400 psi. Not sure what the Fio 616 does, no data listed for it. I have not used Remington STS very much, they are I believe the coolest of all primers.

[scott kittredge]

[QUOTE=scott kittredge;155515]

Are you using the Remington STS primer? The same load (14.5) grains with a Win 209 producing 7400 psi. Not sure what the Fio 616 does, no data listed for it. I have not used Remington STS very much, they are I believe the coolest of all primers.

yes 209p
the book i have at 15 grs with winchester 209 primer bumps presser up to 6500 psi

[Pete Lester]

Hard to know for sure what is going on when data for the same components is different.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

[scott kittredge]

Hard to know for sure what is going on when data for the same components is different.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

I would think the makers of the powder ,Dupont would be the ones i would trust more. pressures so low on all loads its not a problem.

[Pete Lester]

I would think the makers of the powder ,Dupont would be the ones i would trust more. pressures so low on all loads its not a problem.

Hogdon bought out Dupont in 2003, that is why the 700-x data is on their website reloading data center.

[scott kittredge]

Hogdon bought out Dupont in 2003, that is why the 700-x data is on their website reloading data center.

but ,at the time this data was printed it was Dupont still

[John Dallas]

Years ago, DuPont published a load for 1 oz of shot and 800X powder. It was OK in warm weather, but nasty in cold weather. I questioned DuPont about it, and they said "Oops, we shouldn't have put that load in the book". I threw away about a half a case of those shells

[scott kittredge]

Years ago, DuPont published a load for 1 oz of shot and 800X powder. It was OK in warm weather, but nasty in cold weather. I questioned DuPont about it, and they said "Oops, we shouldn't have put that load in the book". I threw away about a half a case of those shells

800-x is made for the heaver loads and smaller gage guns. i don't think i have seen a 1 oz 800-x load in 12 ga.???

[John Dallas]

Here's a scan of a 1983 DuPont loading brochure. The page I've scanned is for Peters "Blue Max" hulls (remember them?) but there are similar loadings for all the popular hulls of the day

[scott kittredge]

Here's a scan of a 1983 DuPont loading brochure. The page I've scanned is for Peters "Blue Max" hulls (remember them?) but there are similar loadings for all the popular hulls of the day

Thats the same type of book i have, look at the 97 primers and the blue max shells, i have a new box i think, i remember them well:shock:

[Paul Harm]

In the IMR reloading handbook they show 24grms, not a 7/8oz load. That's a International load, but only about 10 or 12 BB's less then 7/8 so basically it's the same. In the data sheet that came with the CB-4100 wads they list three different loads with 700X for 7/8oz in a Remington hull. The 16grs/1200 fps at 6600psi, 17/1250 at 6800, and 18.5/1300 at 8600psi - so I'm loading 18grs and it shot good at 0 degrees. I'm assuming I lost 1500 psi or something because powders are tested at 70 or 72 degrees [ can't remember ]. The others may work at hotter loads but I found one for the components I have so I'll leave it at that. In the summer or warmer temps I'll go back to my lighter loads.

[paul stafford jr]

my first register shoot is always in February, I use tite wad in the cold , switch over to 800x in the warm weather