Experimental Ejector B Grade???

[Philip Peart]

I have recently purchased a B Grade Parker that appears to have an experimental ejector system that has been installed after it left the factory,
However it does have patent stamps.
Has anyone heard of this or know anything about it?
Serial #97486
Thanks
Philip

[Dave Suponski]

Very interesting. Southgate ejectors? Could you show a picture of the top of the forend iron?

[Philip Peart]

Here is another picture

[Philip Peart]

According to the records this gun was manufactured in 1900, and the only mention I can find anywhere of Experimental Ejectors is on a 1930's Trojan Skeet gun which had experimental coil spring ejectors. Maybe this was the rough draft predecessor of that system?

[Dave Noreen]

Patd. Nov. 7, 1899, refers to Patent No. 636,650 granted to C.A. Fischer of Grand Forks, ND. You can look it up and read it on Googlepatents or at USPTO.gov


Several gunsmiths offered after-market ejectors for Parker Bros. extractor guns back in the day. Moran & Wolfersperger of Chicago were probably most common. After they broke up and Moran hooked up with F.P. Stannard, Gus Habich in Indianapolis offered the M&W ejector.

Sounds to me like this gun and a bit of research on C.A. Fischer could make a good Parker Pages article.

[Philip Peart]

The patent for the Ejector
https://www.google.ca/patents/US636650?dq=Patent+No.+636,650&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mkurVIOHDtCxogSGy4CoDA&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA

[Philip Peart]

Im curious as to why this experimental "rough draft" was done on a B Grade. Even in 1899 this gun was worth more than a V for example... Why not butcher and experiment on a lesser grade gun?

[George M. Purtill]

Phillip- do you have a PGCA letter on your gun?

[Dean Romig]

My guess is that the gun may have belonged to Fischer at the time of the conversion. It would be interesting to learn who the gun was originally sold to.

[George M. Purtill]

and if you are a PGCA member the letter is a bargain.

[Brian Dudley]

Since the ejector mechanism on your gun was patented just a couple years before the patenting and implementation of the Parker ejector mechanism. And also the gun was built just before the Parker mechanism, this gun was either fitted at time of manufacture by a third party or aftermarket by a separate company for the owner of the gun.

I do not know by what exact means Parker would have fitted outside parts like ejectors and single triggers when a guy was being built if a customer wanted the features before Parker offered them themselves.

A few observations on your forend. The ejector hammer and spring setup is similar to that of the Fox ejector system.
Also, if you look at the front side of the hammer cutout in the forend, it looks like it has part of the milling in it that would be in a factory Parker iron for the ejector hammers. That along with the shape of the iron, which is an ejector only iron would suggest that a factory Parker iron was modified for using this design.
This would also suggest that the iron may not be original to the gun. Since it was built in 1900 and the Parker ejector iron was not implemented until 1901. ???

The Parker ejector system was designed and patented by King and Hayes in 1901 and Parjer stuck with that design until the end of production.
Hayes did design a prototype design for an improved ejector mechanism in the late 1920s, which was basically very similar to the regular Parker design, but with cool springs. The new design was fitted to at least 2 guns that we know of. One owned by Charlie Parker (story goes that Delgrego tossed it out) and the Prototype Trojan that is in the Remington Museum. Not the Trojan skeet gun, that gun has the typical type Parker ejectors in it. Just a different forend latch.

[Philip Peart]

No I do not have a letter for the gun but I would like to send away for one as soon as i get my PGCA membership.
I am VERY curious as to who the gun was originally sold to.
Even if the gun belonged to Fischer it seems mighty brave to experiment with a higher grade gun.

[Brian Dudley]

Can you please post a photo of the knuckle of the frame and also of the breech end of the barrels?

I want to see what else is done to this gun by way of shell kickers and also confirm if the frame has factory ejector trips or not.

[Philip Peart]

A few more pics

[Philip Peart]

Sorry heres the pics

[Philip Peart]

This appears to be very much a prototype as the fine finishing is not done as would be if it were a factory modification. Even the wood of the fore end is broken as the coil springs dont fit into the shape of the forend itself.

[Philip Peart]

In a record book that my gunsmith has this gun is recorded as just an extractor gun when it left the factory.

[Brian Dudley]

Yes, and looking at the gun itself, it is clear that is left the factory as an extra for gun. So the ejector iron was acquired after the fact and then modified.

[Dean Romig]

The forend iron, by my observation, is the original extractor iron stamped with the original serial number and overstamped with the Fischer patent stamp. If you enlarge the image to its max you can see the side plates housing the ejector mechanism were added on evidenced by the seam line between the side plates and the original iron.
In my opinion this is the original extractor iron modified by the Fischer Company and, unless there is legitimate documentation to the contrary, was not done at Parker Bros. in Meriden, CT and it would be a mistake to assume otherwise.

[Brian Dudley]

good catch on that added material on the sides of the iron. Could not see that well on my phone, but now that i am looking on the big screen, I see it well.

Does anyone out there (maybe Mr. Noreen) if there there is any connection between this design and the later AH Fox design?

[Dean Romig]

It is interesting however, that in Fischer's patent drawings he titles it "Ejector For Breakdown Firearms" but he most definitely uses a Parker Bros. hammerless shotgun as a template for his drawings, so it is obvious that he had an affinity for the Parker shotgun.

[Bruce Day]

I used to live in Grand Forks. There were several Fischer modified Parkers left in the area.

This is another Fischer modified Parker. Not a prototype, not experimental. Similar to Miller single trigger conversions, some people had ideas to improve Parker shot guns. Old Fischer advertisements for doing these ejector modifications can be found. He was a local gunsmith and this was part of his livelihood.

With all the gunsmiths that had their own ideas, you could get Nydar sights, Sellious PG plates, through bolts as a preventative measure, padded butts, fat fore ends, or even chop the barrels.

[Dave Noreen]

Pictures the late Dr. Gaddy sent me of the M & W ejectors --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/MoreMWEjectorsinGH73542.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/MWEjectorsonGHParker73542.jpg

In that Parker Bros. were very late in offering ejector guns, and their early ejector catalogues stated "EJECTORS CANNOT BE FITTED TO ANY GUNS NOW IN FINISHED CONDITION." So, this left a cottage industry for inventive gunsmiths.

[George M. Purtill]

Thanks Dave
Gosh I miss Oscar but that is a topic for another thread.

[Kevin McCormack]

The ejector system shown is most likely a modification of Fischer's patent installed by M & F or possibly Joseph Singer of Los Angeles, both of whom specialized in "pre-aftermarket" modifications, particularly Parkers (e.g., hardened boltplate modifications, ejectors, etc. long before they were done in Meriden

It's not a Southgate system since that one doesn't use coil springs (leaf only) and its not an original Baker patent (English, not USA) since the Baker patent housed the individual coil springs in small cylindrical metal sleeves or tubes. When the gun was opened, a nub on the face of the action engaged the end of the ejector tube and lifted it up until the stop on the end of the ejector shaft was freed, and the spring inside the tube forced the ejector shaft out ejecting the spent shell. Oscar's photos clearly show the giveaway indicator of pre- and/or after-market ejector installation - the tiny pinhead of the metal shaft just barely discernable in the forward rim of the orbit of the recessed hinge pin.

[Frank Srebro]

M&W advert in the Nov 14, 1903, issue of the American Field.

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/silvers897/IMG_5210_zps2a9e8aa2.jpg (http://s1044.photobucket.com/user/silvers897/media/IMG_5210_zps2a9e8aa2.jpg.html)

[Dave Noreen]

By the Nov. 17, 1906, issue of The American Field, Gus Habich was doing the M&W ejectors and Francis Moran had hooked up with F.P. Stannard.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/GusHabichFPStannardampMoranNov171906_zpsc3ae1622.j peg

In the same issue, some good shooting by F.P. Stannard's brother --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/ECpowderWDStannardNov171906_zps22710580.jpeg

who was later part of the Jostam Mfg. Co., maker of recoil pads, was reported.

[Philip Peart]

Well I have searched extensively for any further info on Christian A Fischer and his Ejector system without any luck, But I truly enjoy the uniqueness of this gun and I am going to restore it to its former glory leaving the ejectors intact. My local gunsmith and avid Parker collector is going to assist me in the careful journeyand I am going to get a letter on the gun to gather a bit more detail on it.
Thanks to all who contributed your knowledge and info and I look forward to learning so much more from all of you during my Parker journeys.

[Frank Srebro]

Apparently "Wolfersperger" was changed to "Wolf" by March 19, 1904 ..... at least for mail. Easier to pronounce, more PC for 1904 shooters?
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/silvers897/31904_zps0de53fb0.jpg (http://s1044.photobucket.com/user/silvers897/media/31904_zps0de53fb0.jpg.html)

Here's a Parker advert referencing ejectors, dated March 26, 1904.
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/silvers897/32604-4_zps351e4e27.jpg (http://s1044.photobucket.com/user/silvers897/media/32604-4_zps351e4e27.jpg.html)

[Dave Noreen]

and Francis Moran had hooked up with F.P. Stannard.


Brain fart!! Should have said Matthew E. Moran!!

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Dave you've got Runs With The Fox on the brain....