What to do? GHE 20 ga

[Fred Lowe]

I own this GHE 20 ga with 28"special steel barrels, choked M/F. I would like to have the chokes opened to IC/M or wider so I can better use it quail hunting.
Will I negatively affect value?
Should I consider thin wall choke tubes?
Should I leave it alone?

Thanks

[Rick Losey]

modification affects value

IMHO - screw in chokes ruin a gun like this

have you tried spreader loads?

[Greg Baehman]

Leave it as it. Shoot spreaders or carry your Repro.

[Brian Dudley]

Best option for value: leave alone
Next best option for usability and value: re-cut chokes right by someone who knows what they are doing.
Worst option for value: install screw in chokes.

Absolute worst option: shorten barrels.

I threw in the last in for comedy.

My personal thoughts on recutting chokes are as follows: if there are no factory records on a gun to say how the chokes were originally cut, and you get them recut properly, there is no way anyone would know the gun was altered. Realistically speaking.

Screw in chokes would add versatility, but it is pretty universally frowned upon by most who are into classic double guns. Now... If you have the opportunity to buy a gun that has already had screw in chokes installed, and the price is right, buy it for a shooter. But shame on the person who pays to have the chokes installed.

[Dave Suponski]

Fred,Spreaders are the answer. Do you reload? I have a great recipe for 20 gauge spreaders.

[Mark Ouellette]

if there are no factory records on a gun to say how the chokes were originally cut, and you get them recut properly, there is no way anyone would know the gun was altered. Realistically speaking.

Screw in chokes would add versatility, but it is pretty universally frowned upon by most so are into classic doubke guns.

I beg to differ Brian but Captain Obvious here,

If one has a set of Parker choke reamers so that a new choke could be cut at the same taper as original Parker chokes then you are correct. Most choke reamers available today simple remove choke but cutting a parallel (with the line of the bore) section at the muzzle end of the choke. Parker chokes were tapered without a parallel section.

Is a parallel section easy to detect. Yup, in a 12 gauge I can see them with my eyes! :) A bore gauge would give a more definitive reading.

The above stated, a parallel section stabilizes the shot column reducing flyers. That's why modern target guns use them. I use parallel choke reamers on guns of "shooter" quality. On very collectible guns, i.e. guns with increasing value due to their originality, condition, and rarity, I shoot them as they with spreaders when need be or I shoot a "lesser" gun with open chokes.

Mark

[Fred Lowe]

I currently use two of my 28 ga repros now, but would like to have the GHE in the lineup.
I do reload 20 and 28 ga. Have a Ponsness set up.
I was just looking at archives regarding Spred-r wads.
Dave, I would like very much to see your 20 recipe.

Thanks all for the quick responses. My preference would be to not alter the gun.

[Russ Jackson]

Fred , Spreaders are the key to what you are after ,if you shoot Polywad Spreaders and pattern the gun ,you will be amazed at the width of the pattern ! I shot Polywad Spreaders for years in a 16 Gauge Trojan that was choked so tight I couldn't hit anything with it and after shooting the spreaders ,it seemed I couldn't miss ! Just my opinion for what it's worth but I would never put screw in chokes in a gun such as yours , it's a Gem !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fred Lowe]

Have just ordered 1000 Spred-r wads and will give them a try as soon as they arrive.

I had this gun out yesterday on a mild chukar hill and got these 4. I'm able to let these birds get out there, but the quail get behind trees and cactus too quickly.
I'm hoping the Spred-r's and 9 shot will do the trick!

[Larry Frey]

I beg to differ Brian but Captain Obvious here,

I Parker chokes were tapered without a parallel section.

Is a parallel section easy to detect. Yup, in a 12 gauge I can see them with my eyes! :) A bore gauge would give a more definitive reading.

Mark

Mark,
Although the Parker Story Volume II dose not go into much detail regarding the actual shape of the Parker Chokes I have often found on original untouched barrels a choke length from 3" to 5" with a short parallel section at the end. This always reinforced for me what Austin Hogan had found in his research of Parker Chokes.

From Austin Hogan
Parker Chokes prior to sometime during Remington's ownership were cut with the adjustable nut borer and had the characteristic "OGEE" shape, with a parallel section 1/8 to 1/4 inch long. Late Remington barrels were reamed from the muzzle end, and have longer parallel sections.

[William Davis]

I use a Poly Wad Yellow solid disk spreader insert. Same powder charge and shot weight (3/4 oz) as my regular 20 G loads. Only difference a 7/8 oz wad which leaves a little room for the spreader disk. At the wad insert station I put the plastic regular wad in, throw the shot then use the PW 375 wad seater to insert the spreader disk. Only extra step is the 2nd wad on top insert It patterns very well at quail distances in my 28 inch F&M Parker Trojan. I just used that gun and load to qualify for a Parker "Doubles" pin on Quail. First shot was close, to make some time for a good 2nd. Quail was fine not torn up at all.

On altering, as has been said it's going to hurt value. I guess there are good choke opening gunsmith out there. However looking at Parker's with open chokes for several years now most are "messed up" to my standard this after checking with a dial indicator choke gauge. Number of guns ruined by poor choke work has hurt the value of any gun who's chokes have been altered.

Look at this video from Midway how to ruin a Parker in a few easy steps, by buying the tool from Midway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6yrnJIyjtU

William

[Daryl Corona]

Look at this video from Midway how to ruin a Parker in a few easy steps, by buying the tool from Midway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6yrnJIyjtU

William[/QUOTE]

:crying::banghead:

[Mark Ouellette]

Mark,
Although the Parker Story Volume II dose not go into much detail regarding the actual shape of the Parker Chokes I have often found on original untouched barrels a choke length from 3" to 5" with a short parallel section at the end. This always reinforced for me what Austin Hogan had found in his research of Parker Chokes.

From Austin Hogan
Parker Chokes prior to sometime during Remington's ownership were cut with the adjustable nut borer and had the characteristic "OGEE" shape, with a parallel section 1/8 to 1/4 inch long. Late Remington barrels were reamed from the muzzle end, and have longer parallel sections.

Larry,

I stand corrected. I checked a dozen of my higher condition Parkers and found two with 1/4 to 1/2" parallel sections in the choke. One was a Damascus barrel 34" DH from the 91,000 range and the other a Parker Steel PHE 10 from the 214,000 serial number range. The other guns measured were all Damascus barreled from early to late.

Albeit I was in err that some Parkers did have a parallel section, cutting a parallel section in a Parker with other than a tapered cutter will leave evidence. Oh, cut out .005" and polish it and who could tell that it wasn't cut in the factory. But cut more and think about it...

Parker chokes taper for let's say on average .030" over a length of 3 to 5 inches, removing even .010" choke will leave a parallel section of about 1 inch. Look at that from the muzzle and breach end and if not polished to a glass-like surface it will be easy to see the parallel. But then who is to say it didn't leave the factory that way?

Mark :)

[James L. Martin]

I have a 20ga VH with .026 chokes in both barrels , I use factory Polywad Spreaders that work great, I also use RST spreaders. To my way of thinking you should not have any choke work done, by using spreaders you have a gun for close work and you can use plain shells for longer shooting. The worst thing would be choke tubes, I will not buy a gun with after market tubes.

[Dave Suponski]

Austins choke graph.

[Dave Suponski]

Another

[Mark Ouellette]

Thanks Dave!

In the article and graph Austin refers to competition guns. Is there any research on Parker chokes for ordinary (dare I say "ordinary" referring to any Parker"?) Parkers? If would be interesting to measure and plot a sample set or at least 50 Parkers from each decade. This could be done by by distant members using a common reference data sheet such as measure and record each choke at every 1/8" from muzzle to point of no choke/bore diameter.

PS: The 34" 12 gauge DH Damascus in which I measured a parallel section of 1/2" was built on a #3 frame. I would consider it a special purpose, maybe a competition gun.

[Larry Frey]

Mark,
My reply was not to in any way condone the altering of a Parker choke as that is something I personally would never do. Like you I also have what I believe to be unaltered chokes that have no parallel section. I think there was a typical boring that was done for the intended pattern but when the gun when for patterning testing they would then be adjusted as needed to meet the customers requirements. I obviously have no proof of this but that is how I have interpreted what I've read on this subject over the years.

[Mark Ouellette]

Larry,

Your logic is perfect! For the average gunner the ogee curve of gradually increasing then relaxing the Parker choke would serve them well. For competition shooters, or later just to keep up with the performance or hype about the Super Fox (No disrespect the one of my favorite Fox guns) is makes sense that Parker skilled tradesmen would add parallel section to "regulate" the performance.

Mark

[Richard Flanders]

I agree with the pack here: don't alter the chokes. I had a 26" F/F VH12 opened up... by the wrong smith I might add.... and ended up with a paper thin muzzle on one side, out of round chokes, and +.004 choke on the right; that's right a slight blunderbuss choke. I'm afraid to pattern it. To say I feel bad would be a gross understatement; I actually feel like some kind of lurid criminal and will never forgive myself, or the smith for that matter, who is well known and should have known better and who when confronted was totally unrepentant. The gun is a gorgeous transition gun with a gorgeous SG blonde stock with perfect dimensions. The value of the gun is also severely diminished and I paid too much for it in the first place. Unless you have a chopped or beater gun with little value, which your G grade certainly is NOT, I wouldn't let anyone touch those chokes. Adjust some other way or just get used to dusting birds a bit more seriously than you might like or sell the gun to someone who wants a 20ga pheasant gun and get something different. Remember when it comes to mods: Do no harm.

[Fred Lowe]

On my honor, I will not alter this gun.:nono:

However
It is far too tight "as is" for quail. I've torn up a few already.
I will immediately load some spreaders and report on how they work out for me.
But regardless, I won't sell this 20 gauge. It feels to me, far "livelier"
than any of the 20 repros that I've owned or handled. I really enjoy shooting it.
My thanks to Dean Romig for his advise, and giving me the confidence to originally make the purchase.

[Mark Ouellette]

Fred,

For your handloads not only add a spreader but cut the petals off the wad. The lead shot will scrape the bore slightly causing each shot pellet that scraps to become a little less round. These will in theory fly toward the outside of a normal pattern.

Another method to negate the venturi effect ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect ) of choke is to insert a section of drinking straw in the center of the shot column. Close the ends of the straw shut so that no pellets can slip into the area.

The effect of choke is caused by the shot pellets being "squirted" out of the barrel at a higher velocity than the shot moving through the barrel (just like water our of a garden hose). Giving those squeezed pellets an unpopulated area in which to move (inside the section of straw) pellets are not squirted out at a higher velocity.

This is also why the shot string is longer for a full choke than for a skeet choke. Think of water out of a garden hose.

Mark

[Dave Suponski]

Mark and All, Austin and I discussed this choke mystery many times. All the Meriden era guns that Austin and I measured had to a lesser or greater degree the ogee choke configuration. After Remington started making guns in Illion the choke configuration was changed to a more conventional style and the ogee choke went by the wayside. It is very time consuming to measure an ogee choke accuratly.

[Mark Ouellette]

Dave,

Based on the data you collected via all the ogee measuring, what percentage of Parkers have a parallel section at the muzzle?

Mark

[Dave Suponski]

Mark, To a greater or lesser degree all of them. Very early hammerguns were often bored with a full taper in the bore. It's my belief that Parker Bros. did quite a bit of experimenting with choke before settling on the ogee configuration. When did the ogee choke come into full time use? Good question...but I suspect somewhere in the 1880's.

[Dean Romig]

Of the Parker chokes I've measured I find most of them have the ogee choke taper anywhere from 2 1/2" in length to as much as almost 6" in length and the parallel section at the muzzles anywhere from non-existent to 1/2" in length but most are between 1/8" to 3/8" in length.

[Mark Ouellette]

After discussing choke measuring with brother Dave I remeasured all the unaltered chokes I have on hand to find the elusive parallel section at the end of the ogee. This is what I found:

(10) Damascus barreled 10 gauges NONE had a parallel section.
(1) Parker Steel 10 gauge PHE made in 1925 HAS a parallel section.
(3) 12 Gauge to include (1) Titanic Steel HAVE a parallel section.
(3) 12 Gauge all Damascus DO NOT have a parallel section.
(1) 20 Gauge Damascus DOES NOT have a parallel section.

I hope to see the spreadsheets of data on the chokes. It will be interesting since my small sample set listed above in NOT statistically significant.

[charlie cleveland]

does this parrallel boring help with a tighter pattern or does itopen up the pattern.charlie

[Dean Romig]

10, you haven't given us the lengths of the parallel sections you found on your guns. I hope you intend to post those measurements as they are significant to our discussion.

[Mark Ouellette]

Gentlemen,

I will trade you spreadsheets. Hopefully you've entered the data into Excel.

I'd like to see the data from the many guns measured to determine the percentages of Parker with parallel sections a quarter inch or longer. Were there any guns with an inch of parallel section? Is there a higher percentage of fluid steel or later, pre-Remington guns with parallel sections than older Damascus barrels?

My limited sample set of ten sets of 10 gauge Damascus barrels included no parallel sections. It takes a sample set of 50 of like objects to be statistically significant. Only 40 more Damascus 10's need to be measured.

My one fluid steel ten from 1925 has a parallel section which is but one piece of data. The six sets of 12 gauge barrels revealed 50% having parallel sections.

Has anyone sorted results by gauge, grade, or periods of manufacture?

Let's put this into quantifiable data.

Mark

[Dean Romig]

:duck:

[Mills Morrison]

I tend to agree with Brian's post.

[todd allen]

Fred,

For your handloads not only add a spreader but cut the petals off the wad. The lead shot will scrape the bore slightly causing each shot pellet that scraps to become a little less round. These will in theory fly toward the outside of a normal pattern.

Another method to negate the venturi effect ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect ) of choke is to insert a section of drinking straw in the center of the shot column. Close the ends of the straw shut so that no pellets can slip into the area.

The effect of choke is caused by the shot pellets being "squirted" out of the barrel at a higher velocity than the shot moving through the barrel (just like water our of a garden hose). Giving those squeezed pellets an unpopulated area in which to move (inside the section of straw) pellets are not squirted out at a higher velocity.

This is also why the shot string is longer for a full choke than for a skeet choke. Think of water out of a garden hose.

Mark

This is actually some good advise, from Mark. As we all know, the classic guns we shoot now were bored and choked way before the advent of shot cups and collars. Handloading with old-school components would help, spreader loads are the ticket.
I would never mess with Parker chokes. (this is coming from a guy who Briley choked a circa 1900 Royal Sidelock Ejector gun)

[Mark Ouellette]

does this parrallel boring help with a tighter pattern or does itopen up the pattern.charlie

Hi Charlie,

I didn't mean to ignore you.

A parallel section at the muzzle end of the choke is believed to stabilize the shot leaving the gun. Modern target chokes use them as it seems so did Parker.

Mark