Provenance

[Austin W Hogan]

I will be at the pre view at Julia's Sunday afternoon, and at the auction Monday. I hope to see a few of you there and maybe have a lobster together.

I think this may be a landmark event in sporting arms collecting. It seems that "factory originality" has trumped association with a distinguished shooter or owner with respect to the collectability of sporting arms. There are two notable Parker exceptions. The Czar gun, and "Burt's gun" sold for approximatly 6 times the amount they would have brought as wood and iron, without a story. The provenance of the Czar gun was near impeccable; a number of entries in the order books, a letter from Mr Parker, the original hang tags, and single family ownership far outweighed a new stock. Burt's Gun provenance is even better; Burt handed it to young Bill Tappley who hunted it and wrote of it for 60 years, before passing it on just before his death. There is some pretty good observational support for the provenance of collectability of these two guns; every one of Julia's telephone bidder's representatives was on their feet when the Czar gun lot was called; and I was able to count nine individual bidders chasing Burt's gun at the Cobbs.

It is currently assessed that Nash Buckingham's association with a Super Fox will cause that gun to be sold at 10 to 20 times the amount it would bring without the association. I will judge its provenance and collectability from the number of bidders on the phone, and the number in the gallery fidgeting with bidders cards when the lot is called.

Parker Pages would do an article, or series, on Provenance if sufficient inputs are recieved . We would really like to be able to assess current feelings on provenance of sporting arms and Parkers in particular.

You can post your thoughts here, or e mail them to me at

austin.w.hogan@valley.net

Thanks, Austin

[Dean Romig]

As with the Czar's Parker and with Burt's Gun there is an enormous amount of trepidation - a tingling you can actually feel - a sincere skepticism balanced by a firm desire for it all to be true, to be the "real deal" the undeniable original "Bo-Whoop", the magic wand of the legendary but flesh and blood hero iconic American waterfowler Nash Buckingham.

Some will courageously levy their maximum bids while others, cowed by insecurity and the lack of hard evidence beyond that which is known and printed in the Julia's catalog will sweat and tremble and in the end only wish they had placed that bid - that winning bid...

[Austin W Hogan]

Thanks Dean; you are correct in the observation. But this is really the same as a newly discovered work of a well known artist coming up for sale; what information convinces you that it is genuine? Or, what in the painting makes it more desirable than other work of the same artist?

Best, Austin

[Chuck Heald]

My vague understanding of provenance is that continuity of documented possession and transfer is key for an item that cannot otherwise be irrefuteably validated.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Anybody who pays big bucks for that Buckingham gun with the shakey provenance needs their head examined, but somebody will.......

DLH

[Eric Eis]

Anybody who pays big bucks for that Buckingham gun with the shakey provenance needs their head examined, but somebody will.......

DLH

I agree with Destry, it has shakey provenance and just how long will Julia guarantee that it is the real deal after the sale..... as I know from bitter experience :cuss: What I was out was nothing (5 K ) compared to what this buyer maybe out :eek: You think Julia will cover the cost of the gun six months from now if or when it turns out not to be the real deal or some insurance company comes to claim it..... I would want something in writing from Julia's, a guarantee in writing with a moneyback return for at least a year and that I can "Guarantee" Julia will not give. Sorry I have little trust.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Eric,

If I was you, every gunshow or shooting event I attended, I'd put that gun on my table with a big sign giving all the details. My guess is it wouldn't take long for "Mr. Julia" to get back in touch with you saying he'd changed his mind.


DLH

[Robert Rzepiela]

A year ... ? If I am paying 100K for this gun, I want like 20 years guarantee !!

[Eric Eis]

A year ... ? If I am paying 100K for this gun, I want like 20 years guarantee !!

Robert,

You would be lucky to get a two month guarantee from Mr Julia, I know the hard way.......:banghead:

[Jared Valeski]

One problem that may or may not arise in the future is the discovery of another "Bo Whoop". What happens then?

Here's my claim to fame in the world of Ansley Fox shotguns. The only D grade PAC gun known (sn348) and was almost surely in the Great Man's hands before it left the factory. There was a part of me that wanted to send it to the Julia auction, but I couldn't do it....
http://www.foxcollectors.com/philadelphia%20arms.htm

[Dave Suponski]

Jared,That is great Fox! Congratulations...

[Austin W Hogan]

Returning to the beginning of this thread; Parker Pages cover has a professional photo of Ernest Hemingway holding a Parker. This is part of the series we established the current cover layout for, but carried the shooter's name for the first time.
I recieved an e mail message inquiring if PGCA was using this photo to establish a "Hemingway Parker". I replied that this cover layout was established to fit cabinet and other professional photo prints of the Parker era. The Parker and the ducks for that matter, may have been the photographer's props, as in the prior covers.

What kind of provenance provides acceptable connection of an individual gun to an individual owner? Is the use of an individual gun by a distinguished person at an event acceptable provenance?

Best, Austin

[John Dallas]

Ultimately, provenance is whatever data will induce a given individual to pay a premium for a given gun. What may induce you to spend big bucks may not do the job for me.

[Dean Romig]

I think 'provenance' in and of itself is whatever empirical evidence will link a specific Parker (in this case) to a person, event, location, or factory specification. I may have left something out... ?

[Bob Roberts]

Austin,

With this thread you are soliciting comments for PP on the issue of provenance, here are a couple:

What kind of provenance provides acceptable connection of an individual gun to an individual owner? Is the use of an individual gun by a distinguished person at an event acceptable provenance?

It seems to me that the use of photographic evidence to establish primary provenance of “ownership” of an object by a distinguished person must be viewed very cautiously, especially in these days of digital image manipulation. A photograph of a person simply holding an object does not have the weight of an original bill of sale. A photograph of Hemingway game fishing in an anonymous power boat does not prove any other connection with the boat other than that he was once photographed in that boat. A original serial numbered bill of sale or a specific listing in an estate document certainly establishes ownership provenance to an object; multiple and various photographs of the individual using the object or reference to the object in public documents support the provenance of the importance of the object to the individual and hence might elevate the potential “value” of the object to a potential buyer. Then over time the strength of the “provenance of the provenance” of an object increases or decreases each time the object is subjected to public examination and the “accepted” strength of this will generally be reflected in the price realized. In the case of “Bo-Whoop” this is its first submission to a public test and beyond the priced realized next week we will not really know how its provenance stands up until it has been tested a couple times again.

I received an e mail message inquiring if PGCA was using this photo to establish a "Hemingway Parker". I replied that this cover layout was established to fit cabinet and other professional photo prints of the Parker era. The Parker and the ducks for that matter, may have been the photographer's props, as in the prior covers.

You do not provide the original text of this message; but I find it interesting and a little annoying that someone seemingly by the nature of their question to you has jumped to the suspicion that the presentation of a previously not well know charming “local” photograph of Hemingway festooned in dead ducks and holding a just barely recognizable Parker is somehow an effort to provide, establish or strengthen the provenance of a particular Parker gun. PP’s presentation of this photograph was simply a delightful and enjoyable surprise. Yet I realize that the question of the current market values of the Parkers we search out, acquire, have, study, shoot and care for as temporary custodians is ever present below the surface, but sometimes it really becomes intrusive, tedious and just a pain in the a$$. In the end, the only true test of value is the amount the next buyer hands us or one of our heirs.

[Austin W Hogan]

Thank you for the replies. I think we are beginning to get some meat together for an article.

Best, Austin

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I've got a lifter 10 gauge that used to belong to Austin Hogan, that's all the provenance I need. *wink*

Destry

[Dave Suponski]

I think Chuck H pretty much sums it up for me."My vague understanding of provenance is that continuity of documented possession and transfer is key for an item that cannot otherwise be irrefuteably validated"

In the case of "Burts Gun".... It is well documented in story and there is a solid line to Mr.Spiller plus the guns wear is consistant to the time line.

The Czars Gun provenance is foolproof.

Bo-Whoop I have been advised by several knowledgeable people that it the real deal but for the life of me I just can,t seem to get a warm and fuzzy feeling about this gun.And I really have nothing to base my uneasyness(Is that a word?) on.

[Bill Murphy]

There was very little chance of establishing the original ownership provenance of Parker shotguns until 1998 when the PGCA Research Committee copied the Parker Brothers order books. The Fox records have always, at least in my collecting lifetime, been available. However, the Fox records have very little information about individual purchasers of their guns compared to information available about Parkers. Proving or claiming that someone owned a gun or shot a gun isn't too important in increasing value when such information is compared with original factory order records. Bo Whoop is backed up with factory records establishing him as the original purchaser, but so are other Fox shotguns, and maybe a Parker or two. What are those guns worth compared to Bo Whoop?

[Dean Romig]

Okay, veering a bit - What author of several coveted books and dozens upon dozens of stories, steeped in the lore of his chosen sport, a few even singing the praises of his custom bored and choked Parker shotgun by pet name (with his own name stamped or engraved into it) can we think of that might even compare to Buckingham and "Bo-Whoop"?

[Eric Eis]

I still want to know who is the true owner of the gun...... The person who consigned the gun or an insurance company? Does the person who consigned the gun have any release from the insurance company that paided the claim if not I think ownership would be the insurance company. Food for thought if you are thinking about spending that kind of money.

[Dean Romig]

Once settlement has been made the clock starts ticking on the Statute of Limitations...
tick-tick-tick-tick-...... DING-DING-DING-DING.... Too Late!

[Jared Valeski]

Wasn't there a serial # descrepancy between the Fox records and Buckingham's personal records on the gun? Also, the letters on the top of the barrels look like they were applied very poorly. Perhaps other Burt Becker guns were done this way?
JJV

[Kevin McCormack]

Jared - I guess we would have to refer to that one as "Bo Whoopie 2". That is one screaming D grade PAC!!!

[Dave Smith]

I have good information about how a guy from back east who contacteda certain Tony. to make a copy of the Czar's parker back in the1980's Tony required a deposit of $90,000. When the gun was finished the buyer decided he wanted his money back and not the shotgun. This all ended up in court where the judge decided that "This case sounds like two crooks were out to screw each other" so neither person was favored in the decisison. So folks; I don't believe that this so called recently sold czar's parker has any real merit, especially with a fake being out there. My info from a member of the Ye old conn. gun guild and the american society. I am just relating a factual story to remind all of us that there are lots of money to be made in in faking guns as well as documentation.

[Bill Murphy]

In my opinion, Tony's "Not the Czar's Parker" will sell for more than the Czar's Parker next time it goes on the block.

[Dean Romig]

That's very old news Dave. Nonetheless, it is a good example of guns that get "faked up".

[Bill Murphy]

I know Tony and I know Mr. CC. Believe me, the judge made the right decision. I would like to have a copy of the court record (that has been thrown about over the years) emailed to me at wilmrph@verizon.net if some reader has it available. I have meant to add it to my "Czar's Gun" collection, but have never done it. I think the "Not the Czar's Gun" is a wonderful example of shotgun art. It is pictured in The Parker Story along with its history. I wish Bill Mullins and Charlie Price had told the whole story.

[Dean Romig]

I think some things are better left unsaid. I think the authors of TPS gave it about as much paper as it warranted, considering the object of the book was to enlighten the reader about the Parker gun and it's history - not all the details they (ther authors) knew about the provenance of each special gun.

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, I asked for it to be emailed to me. I didn't ask for it to be posted on this forum. I am a researcher and I have a taste for the "mushy and unusual". Would someone please email me the court transcript of the Cail Galazan case?

[Robert Delk]

I've always wondered how they came up with the "fake" czars gun as there were no pictures to go by and the description in Johnson's book was rather vague. Nice gun at any rate.Ok, a really nice gun.

[Dean Romig]

I wish Bill Mullins and Charlie Price had told the whole story.

Bill, this is the part of your statement I was commenting on - nothing more.

Now, will someone please e-mail the court transcripts on the "Not the Czar's Parker" to Bill please?

[Dave Suponski]

Where would you find "said" transcrips?

[Dean Romig]

They are a matter of public record. All one needs to do is find which court the trial was held in, go there in person or have your 'agent' go for you and ask for a copy of all the transcripts.

[Austin W Hogan]

Parker Pages recieved a letter relative to the Hemingway photo on the last cover, inquiring if PGCA were trying to establish Hemingway's ownership of a Parker. In my own opinion a photograph of a person holding a Parker establishes nothing other than that the person held a Parker for 1/50 of a second.

Another and tougher question; does the appearance of a name in a Parker order book establish possession or use of the ordered Parker? All of Parker Bros gun business was completed before the GCA's of 1934,1938 and 1968. It was perfectly legitimate for a person with a letterhead and commercial credit to order a Parker at wholesale for a friend or neighbor.

We also know, from the Newcomb scrapbooks, that O R Dickey and others passed Parkers from one competitor to another for use in tournaments. Should the same gun have won several tournaments in the hands of several shooters, which dominates; gun or shooter?

Your opinions please

Best, Austin

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, some of our members went the extra yard and got copies of the Cail Galazan testimony years ago for their research collections. I understand why TPS authors only touched on the whole story. Lucky you, Dave, the case was probably tried in CT.

[Dave Suponski]

Hmmm...Might be worth a look see

[Francis Morin]

Great cover choice for PP issue, Austin. From that era, and other fotos of the late Ernest H., this one shows his face rather full and florid. He abused alcohol and apparently women, but kept his solid work ethic for writing for a long time. I have read that his two preferred hunting "escopetas" were a Browning O/U and a Model 12, both 12 gauges with a single sight plane. His one weak eye may have led to his choice in shotguns.

His defective vision kept him from serving in the "Big Red One" in WW1, so he served with distinction in the Red Cross Ambulance Corps, decorated by the Italian Gov't for pulling two of their soldiers out from German mortar fire. He most likely died with some of the Krupp-steel still in his legs.

I was at Camp LeJeune that summer of 1961- a Col. came into the duty hut and told us that "The great writer, Ernest Hemingway, has died, a gunshot wound from cleaning a shotgun at his home in Idaho" Only later did we find out that it was a SIGSW- what a loss.

If this Parker was one of his guns, would any of his surviving family have it, or a record of his ownership?

Hope to see you at the MI UP shoot in June- I plan to take a side trip over to visit Puglisi's in Duluth--:bigbye:

[Bruce Day]

Bill : There was no dirt, no admissions in the transcript. The parties settled their differences out of court. There was only a short hearing without any presentation of evidence. There was no trial.

Francis: The Hemingway shotgun was reported to have been destroyed to deter the morbid momento seekers . A couple small fragments remain.

[Pete Lester]

He abused alcohol and apparently women,


You said it like it's a bad thing? :rotf:

[Dean Romig]

Austin, congratulations of the Provenance article in the new issue of DGJ that arrived in my mailbox today. I'll read it tonight when I can devote all of my attention to it. Josh Loensteiner also has a fine article on a very special LeFever.








.

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, Bruce, that's the way I remember hearing about it.

[Francis Morin]

How he treated both his wives and his lovers will always be a topic for discussion in some circles. Of his four known wives, the one that fascinates me is the third one, Martha Gelhorn.

Daughter of a prominent St. Louis physician, educated at Bryn Mawr, a published writer even when she met E.H., befriended by Eleanor Roosevelt, their marriage separated by conflicting careers as WW11 correspondents- quite a person indeed.

I can appreciate some of E.H.'s "gusto" for life in the "macho" lane, without having to emulate it, as much as I can appreciate songs by the late Jim Morrison or Janis Joplin without having to embrace the drug-crazed world they developed for themselves.

My forebearers taught me to respect women. Doesn't mean I profess to understand them, however!!

[Destry L. Hoffard]

There was a good article on Hemingway shotguns in the last shooting sportsman. He didn't shoot himself with a Parker and there aren't any Parkers mentioned in the article.

DLH

[George Lander]

If you've never read "Islands in the Stream", a short novel by Hemingway, it, in my opinion, best describes the man, his moods and his relationship with his sons and ex-wives. George C. Scott played him in the movie. My favourite part in the movie is David Hemmings, George's (Ernest's) alcoholic buddy, shooting the hammerhead shark which was threatening George's son with a B.A.R.

Destry: I believe that his last weapon of choice was a Boss SxS.

Best Regards, George

[Francis Morin]

And not just because I sent you both that VCR of the movie with George C. Scott, but also a VCR copy of the Spencer Tracy- Hemingway's Nobel wining "The Old Man and The Sea"--

If you want insight into Hemingway- read that novel pages 96-97 beginning with the line- "Then he thought that was as--- and ending with "There had been no sorrow at all"!!

I have always wondered who in real life Thomas Hudson's best friend in the novel, Roger the writer was. John Dos Passos?

I believe one of George C. Scott's wives played the part of the local hooker who invited the character Thomas Hudson up to her place for some "Afternoon Delight"--

The central character was depicted as a painter in the novel, in the movie he was a sculptor who worked in metal. As a welder by trade, they even got the period goggles and the 3-tubed Smiths combo torch unit correct.

Yes, David Hemmings played "Eddie"- and killing a shark in a rolling sea with a BAR would be no mean feat indeed!!

[George Lander]

Francis: And Thank You Again For The Tapes. Was it not Claire Bloom who played his former wife? And who was the boat captain who was injured? Wasn't he a former trapeeze artist?

Best Regards, George

[Francis Morin]

Gilbert Roland was the Boat Captain in "Mr. Bobby's Bar"- his line- "Let's have the best one of the day, Thomas" set the tone for that aspect of the movie-Claire Bloom was. at that time, married to George C. Scott, and was the "hooker" as cast- thanks for the memory jog.

In the book, Thomas Hudson shoots at the hammerhead shark with a .256- a Mannlicher-Schoenauer BA with the classic butterknife handle- and Eddie nails the shark in the belly with Thompson 1921 SMG--

Never have shot a shark, but would prefer my NM 1903 accurized Springfield with AP loads-sharks have tough hides so I have heard.

Also have enjoyed very much the "Sunrise on the Santee" duck hunting book you sent me in return for the VCR tapes- any hunting or fishing stopry set in either of the Carolinas is "Aces" with me- Havilah Babcock didn't have to take a back seat to any of the "Yankee" writers of his era either- just read his "Two Strangers" which I rank equally with Corey Ford's "The Road To Tinkhamtown"--

[Fred Preston]

Since this thread has wandered way off course and Francis brought up "Tinkhamtown" I'll tell you of a most remarkable dream I had last night of all nights. I went to bed about 1:00 this morning and woke up at 3:00 having dreamed that I found Ringo in the snow. I lifted his head and pulled the ice off his face; he looked at me, then closed his eyes. I caught something out of the corner of my eye; turned to look and saw his doppleganger drifting off in the woods.

[Francis Morin]

I'll take the "rap" for the drift on this thread. I would have chatted one-on-one with the fine Gent'man from Nawth Carolina vis a vis the PMS system- but mine is always FUBARED- I have apparently used up all the tokens, have freshened up Bowser until he'd pass a white glove inspection=- still no dice.

Trying to PMS Fred about those Trojan 12 gauge parts- so maybe he'll read this instead and let me where where to ship'em!!

Yup- every dog should have a Doppelganger- well, maybe except a Alsatian name of Blondi- in that case, one, plus her nefarious owner, was way more than enough.:nono::duck:

[Fred Preston]

Francis, No PMs, sure you got the right Fred? Also, no need for Trojan parts at this time.

[Francis Morin]

Sorry Fred. I meant to say- Jack Cronkite up in AK--he had asked me about a Trojan receiver (which I can't sell on the PGCA site) but the stripped parts, which I can. I had in mind sending him the parts and let him see if they fit first- but mis-placed his address.

I'm sure we'll get it sorted out. Just my SWAG, but probably not as many Parker gunsmiths up in the 50th. Just heard my old USMC friend who lives in Fairbanks and used to write for GSJ has cancer- always wanted to get up to AK and fly fish-most likely won't, but what scenery!!:bigbye:

[Dean Romig]

Austin, I just finished reading your article in Double Gun & Single Shot Journal on the way provenance affects the value of a gun. Very insightful and informative. I appreciate your comparison of the Super Fox bored by Burt Becker with the boring and choking of some Parker pigeon guns. We have been taught of the lengths to which the Parker barrel men went in designing and cutting the chokes in these guns but Becker was a genius in his work. Nine inches back from the muzzles is where Austin found the first indication of deviation from the .740" nominal bore when he inspected "Bo Whoop" at Julia's. Stunning!

[Dean Romig]

Josh, I read your article too on the LeFever twenty. A great story about a great little gun with loads of provenance too. What a beautiful little gun that one is. I hope it's yours someday.

[Francis Morin]

I'll have to get that issue- Not a subscriber, usually buy my copies of DGJ off the rack at GM- but they stopped carrying it I surmise. Have been re-reading Sherman Bell's stuff on Proof loads in "cheapo" Twist barreled shotguns from another era-

Austin- the 12 and 10 1900's vintage paper hulls sans powder, shot, and live primers are en route to you- be interested in the study you and Dave S. are working on- hope you can use what I sent-

Deano- did you get the copies from the 1934 American Sportsman issue I sent to you at the Stutz Volvo address in Andover? I now have a mint 1940 issue of that magazines annual- 1940, didn't Mr. Foster pass away in 1941?? What a loss.:bigbye:

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Francis, I received the copies and read Foster's account of the quail hunt and his saddle sores from riding that spirited horse. What a great time to wild quail they had back then. Thank you again, Dean

[George Lander]

In addition to Austin's wonderful article in Spring 2010 DGJ entitled "Philosophies of Collecting - Wood & Iron or Provenance" which I thoroughly enjoyed was another extensive article preceeding it in the same issue by our friend Diggory Hadoke entitled "The Effects of Provenance" with a number of famous British Guns explored.

Best Regards, George

[Bill Murphy]

Diggory has the advantage of stumbling on guns owned by kings. We, on the other hand, treasure guns owned by common bird hunters and mediocre trapshooters.

[George Lander]

Hey Bill, You talkin' about my guns? (me being a common trapshooter and mediocre bird hunter) I didn't know that they were valuable. I'll have to get Dig over here & write an article)

Just Kiddin'.......George

[Francis Morin]

[quote=Dean Romig;14872]Okay, veering a bit - What author of several coveted books and dozens upon dozens of stories, steeped in the lore of his chosen sport, a few even singing the praises of his custom bored and choked Parker shotgun by pet name (with his own name stamped or engraved into it) can we think of that might even compare to Buckingham and "Bo-Whoop"?

Wiliiam Harden Foster!!:bigbye:

[Francis Morin]

Would that ever make a great Southern or Vintagers event addition. I'd love to hear him discourse on some of the fine shoots he's attended "across the pond" from us Colonials!!

George, in a manner of speaking, do you mean to say you have "Lowell Thomas graded guns??"-- Surely you have heard about the Mama sweet potatoe with a darlin' daughter of marryin' age-- said daughter wanted to marry Mr. Thomas, but her Mama forbade it- 'cause he's just a common tater--:rotf::duck:

[Dean Romig]

Alas. . . I don't think so Francis. Foster was a great writer, skeet shooter, hunter of winged game (not limited to the "king of gamebirds" but quail, ducks, geese, pheasants and several others) accomplished artist, editor, publisher, co-designer of a sneakboat.... and so on - but he never owned or shot a Parker, that we know of, that he immortalized (other than "The Little Gun") to compare with "Bo-Whoop".

Don't get me wrong - Uncle Ev's "Little Gun" I am quite certain would probably hammer at Julia's at as much as 10X it's pedestrian value... if ever it came to auction (which I sincerely doubt it will).

[Bill Murphy]

How did this great thread get killed off? It's usually Francis Morin that kills a Parker thread, but he was well behaved this time. Who knows what happened to Francis? I kind of miss him.

[John Knobelsdorf II]

https://www.hurstfh.com/obituaries/Francis-Drake-Morin?obId=28891787

When one’s own family says their loved one had “a unique sense of humor” - it’s always the polite thing to say.

[Bill Murphy]

Thank you so much for that obituary. Francis was right up there with Ed Muderlak as a professional curmudgeon on the gun websites, especially ours. I invited him to visit me many times, but he never took me up on it, even though he had relatives just a few miles from me. We sparred for years, but reached a bit of a truce in the final years. He hated the PGCA, but he wasn't alone in that feeling. Rest in peace, Francis.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

The Great "Runs At The Mouth" is dead.

Tragic

I wonder what will happen to his great great grandpappy's matched pair of A1 Specials that in later years became an A Grade and a D grade then went down to "I don't know what you're talking about" whenever you asked abou them.

[Bill Murphy]

He always claimed to have sold the AA Grade. Didn't you have some visits with him or am I mistaken?

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I shot at a tower shoot he attended once. He literally didn't stop talking even as he shot.

[Ian Civco]

I never knew Francis “Drake” Morin but I’m appalled at how much everyone seems to be bashing him.

What was his user name on this forum?

I don’t see how anyone who supports the second amendment and shares an enthusiasm for double barreled shotguns could be such an awful person?

[John Dunkle]

What I'm wondering is HOW did a thread from about 14 (FOURTEEN) years ago get resurrected?

Closed....

John D.