2 Vs 3 frame 12s - rambling questions

[Rick Losey]

The threads about the 3 frame 12s got me thinking about maybe adding a heavy 12 to the mix some time in the future. Maybe another project gun.

While 3 frame 12's are not common, but I see more 2 frames with 32 inch heavy tubes.

I was looking at the frame measurements in the Parker Story- the difference in size between a number 2 frame and a number 3 seems to be around a 16th an inch depending on which measurement. About the same increase from a 1 to a 2. but as you go up the percentage of increase for 1/16 is less.

I have a 2 frame hammer gun, and comparing it to a 1 frame hammerless, I notice it is just a little bigger, the thicker breach being most obvious.

Most 1 frame 12's I have handled seems to be under 8 pounds, my 12 with light 28" barrels is just over 7 pounds, just a little more than my 1 frame 16.

My 2 frame hammer 10 - with 32 inch barrels stamped 5lbs 2oz - tips the scales at 9 pounds, so I expect a 12 with barrels in that weight range, on the same frame to be similar (although maybe more wall thickness with a smaller chamber?) That seems to be the same range as the 3 frame 12's mentioned in the past, but I doubt the frame size adds more than a few ounce to the guns total weight.

so -- Am I off on my guess about weights? I know that will answer itself when I start looking at individual guns.

so- except for the cool factor-and rarity, any practical difference with a 3 Vs a 2 in the field/marsh with something like non tox loads? A little more meat in the head of the stock for example?

for those that have one, what are the length and the weight stamps on your 32" 2 frame barrels?

[Dave Noreen]

My heavy 1889 vintage, GH-Grade, 32-inch, 2-frame, 12-gauge has barrels weight stamped 5lbs 8oz and still weighs a bit over nine pounds even though they have lost two inches of their length. These barrels are very straight and thick. My Grandfather's 1890 vintage 3-frame PH-Grade has 30-inch barrels that swamp very fast and only weighs 8 pounds 8 ounces. I don't have Grandpa's gun, a second cousin in Minnesota does. When I recorded the specs of Grandpa's gun decades ago when my Uncle Howard was still shooting it, I didn't record the weight stamp.

[Mills Morrison]

I have a 3 frame 12 gauge and love it. It actually has 30" barrels. I have not weighed it, but it does have more mass than my other 12 gauges

[Ed Blake]

A 32" 3-frame 12 I own has a big swamp in the barrels and weighs less than a 32" 2-frame I also own. The 3-frame is nicely balanced and is a great shooter.

[Rick Losey]

A 32" 3-frame 12 I own has a big swamp in the barrels and weighs less than a 32" 2-frame I also own. The 3-frame is nicely balanced and is a great shooter.

that is the sort of thing I am wondering-

if the barrel weight is stamped before striking - then a swamped barrel could be uncharacteristically light for the weights marked

[Bill Murphy]

Cool factor and rarity does it for me. I can shoot dynamite in my two frame guns, so I don't need any more beef. However the three frames are so cool. My 16 gauge three frame is beyond cool. It weighs 8 pounds, 13 ounces. I have a DH 12 gauge two barrel set, three frame, that weighs 8-8 and 8-12, depending on the barrels installed. My three frame DH with sleeved Lefever Steel barrels appears as a 12 gauge in the order book, ordered at 10 pounds even. The two frame twenty gauge guns I am aware of, with swamped barrels, are ordered at 8 pounds even.

[charlie cleveland]

my 3 frame hammerless 12 ga barrels are marked 5 lb 10 ounce the gun weighs 9 1/4 lbs with 30 inch barrels..charlie

[Ed Blake]

Edward's 32" 2-frame 20 is right at 8.3.

[Mike Franzen]

My 2 frame, 12 ga lifter, 32" has a bbl weight 5lb 2oz stamp

[Alfred Greeson]

Sorry to be a new member but here in Tennessee we have swamps, have on occasion after drinking too much shine woke up in a swamp, spent too much time out on a ridge drinking shine and wandered down into a swamp but have never looked down a barrel and seen a swamp.
What is a swamp in your barrels?

[Rick Losey]

:rotf:


What is a swamp in your barrels?

that is what you get in your barrel when you trip over a submerged tree root on your way to the blind in the dark.

:bigbye:


simply put, a swamped barrel has a curved taper to the outside profile rather than the typical straight taper

in a shotgun, it allows a heavier breech while removing swing weight farther down the barrel

[Bill Murphy]

I took a #2 frame gun and a #3 frame gun apart today and found 4-8 and 4-12, not much difference for two 32" 12 gauges. Some are heavy and some are not.

[Dean Romig]

We have seen numerous orders for "heavy" 12's and we have seen numerous orders for "light" 12's. In many cases these guns were built to the preference of buyer - hence a 3 frame 12 or even a 4 frame. Conversely, a 1 frame 12 would fill the bill for a light 12.

[Ed Blake]

Sorry to be a new member but here in Tennessee we have swamps, have on occasion after drinking too much shine woke up in a swamp, spent too much time out on a ridge drinking shine and wandered down into a swamp but have never looked down a barrel and seen a swamp.
What is a swamp in your barrels?

Alfred - usage of the term "swamped" originated with the Kentucky rifle. As has been said here by Mr. Osthaus, it refers to a heavy breeched barrel that tapers along its length. This enabled the early barrel makers who hammered out long barrels on a mandrel using wrought iron to balance the gun and maintain the strength of a thick breech. Look down the barrel of your Parker and you will see a degree of flare from the breech to the muzzles. The men who did this by hand with files were true artisans.

[Rick Losey]

diverging from the 2 frame conversion for a moment

they did it with a special swage block on an anvil and a lot of file work by the over worked apprentice

seeing a barrel made the original way from a flat wrought iron skelp forge welded around a mandrel will increase your admiration

it is a little hard to see- but if you visualize a line from breech to muzzle - you will see a smaller waist mid way between the sights

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg195/setterw/longviewcarvingside.jpg
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg195/setterw/longviewpatchbox.jpg

it is a little exaggerated in the drawings
http://buckeyebarrels.com/bspecs/lancaster.htm

[Dave Noreen]

With their great number of frame sizes, the Brothers P. did a lot of weird and wonderful stuff with weight and balance. Even though we normally think of 1/2 frame 12-gauges as light bird guns, we know of at least one fully loaded eight pound gun on the 1/2 frame.

[Rick Losey]

I was surprised to see in the Parker Story that 3 frames were only listed as available in 10 gauge.

i expect we will never stop seeing something new or different that came out of that shop showing up now and then.

as has been said many times about Parkers- never say never

[Bill Murphy]

There have been threads on this forum that discuss and list the frame sizes and gauges that were not included in The Parker Story chart. Some years ago, there was an auction in California, at Littlejohn's if I remember correctly, where all sorts of smallbore guns on big frames were sold. I believe Kevin McCormack bought one of his big twenties from that auction or came upon it second hand. Some of the guns offered were on big frames, but the weights were off the scale, even for the size frame of the gun. Examples of located guns with frame sizes/gauges not mentioned in The Parker Story include these. 3 frame 16. 3 frame 20. 000 frame 28. 6 frame 10. 6 frame 12. 2 frame 20. 2 frame 16. 0 frame .410. Remember, The Parker Story was released many years ago and new Parkers surface every year.

[Rick Losey]

Remember, The Parker Story was released many years ago and new Parkers surface every year.

and that is part of the fun- like i quoted above - never say never

[Alfred Greeson]

Thanks for the information on the swamped barrels, that is pretty incredible what they did in the early days. Today, I saw an L.C. Smith 10 ga. hammer gun with I believe 32 inch barrels. It had a home made forend but locked up tight and looked decent with light pitting. It just came into a local gunshop with several other guns from a collection. They are pricing them now. Would this be something our members might be interested in?

[George Lander]

To digress even further I believe that "swamping" the barrel(s) perhaps originated in European Jager flintlock rifles which were the immediate predecessors of the "Kentucky" or "Pennsylvania" rifles.

Best Regards, George

[Ed Blake]

You are quite right George.