Was it always black & white ?

[John Mazza]

Were the damascus barrels on GH Parkers always "finished" with the "black & White" contrasting colors ?

And - as they aged & were used, did the "black" turn brown ?


I ask because I recently saw a decent-looking GH 20 for sale, and it looks great, but the damascus barrels are brown & grey (a very light brown !)instead of the very dark brown & grey I'm used to seeing...

A definite sign of a refinish ?

...or just normal aging/fading ?

Thanks !

[Dean Romig]

First attempt failed miserably but, Try, try again...


These are the barrels John is referring to.

Opinions?

[Chuck Heald]

Thanks for posting the pictures Dean.

John, I have two GH guns. One was in low condition, but the barrel finish was clearly b&w under the forend. The other gun was in much better condition and all areas were b&w. Every original example I've seen was b&w.

Your barrels look very even in tone/color, which is an indicator of refinishing when the rest of the gun is that aged (brown frame, etc).

[Brad Bachelder]

I agree, those barrels have been refinished at some point. The brown color is due to not boiling to convert the rust to black.It is often done to simulate an aged patina.Aged black & white fades definition and tends to appear brownish due to the white "steel" rusting and staining. the area under the forearm on original barrels will confirm that the barrels were finished to be black and white.

Brad

[Kurt Densmore]

I spoke with the seller several months ago about that gun. For some reason I was thinking that Dale Edmonds did those bbls. If you get the serial number you can call up Dale and ask if he did them. They look more grey than brown to me. Compare the color of the barrels to the brown patina on the action. I have seen a few barrels that didn't give a very good contrast. Some barrels just don't give up the goods.

Kurt

[Bruce Day]

1. Dale's refinished barrels

2. Original Parker barrels not turned to brown.

3. Original Parker Bernard barrels with the top one still b & w and the bottom one turning to brown.


I have a different thought about your 20ga G barrels. Although a picture of the underside showing where the forearm covers the barrels would be helpful and likely determinative, my initial thought is that those barrels were pretty well dark with age and have since been cleaned up, removing the contrast, and without refinishing. If they were mine, I would get them refinished and while waiting, I would get the oil out of the stock head. Just my thoughts.

Your photos are not sufficiently detailed, but if they have been refinished, the technique was not adequate to bring out much contrast. If they have been refinished as Brad suggests, you should see a sheen to the metal surface from the fine carding. If barrel surface is dull and shows lots of scratches, they are likely worn and cleaned up originals, as I believe they are. The frame of the gun shows oxidation darkening from not beng properly protected, not case colors, and I suspect the whole gun was cleaned up but nothing else was done.

[John Mazza]

Thanks guys ! (I would have posted the pictures myself, but I must be one of the most technically challenged persons on the planet - I can't make it work !)

My EH 10 ga. has the black & white barrels, faded/worn in all the right areas. The fact that this 20 g. didn't look the same just worried me a bit. It's certainly still a great little gun, but I realy don't want anything that's been refinished.

Thanks again to all !

John

[Dean Romig]

I'm in agreement with Bruce and I don't think the barrels are representative of Dale's work.

[Brad Bachelder]

Bruce and Dean, I agree from what I have seen of Dales work, I don;t believe that he did them. I believe he coats his barrels with a poly to give them a sheen. I think the subject barrels were chemically stripped. If you look at original, or properly redone barrels, you will notice a black buildup around the hanger lug and by the rear rib. This buildup if caused by the rusting agent. when carding it is almost impossible to remove this excess. All of the original barrels have this present, reguardless of grade.

Brad

[Bruce Day]

Brad, its certainly possible that those barrels were chemically stripped. They've been cleaned of the brown oxidation somehow, but not refinished, in my opinion. I do not have any hesitation with properly refinished barrels, damascus or fluid steel. I don't like them when they were not carded properly and in sequence or when the engraving or rib matting is carded off.

Dale uses BriWax and I have recommended BriWax, Renaissance Wax, any high quality clear wax to others.

[Chuck Heald]

If it was a good 20g damascus gun, the fact that the barrels had been refinished would not bother me. If they were not damaged by the refinishing, and the price and other factors were right, I'd go forward with the purchase and have the barrels redone properly.

[Merv Boyd]

Well, I am finding this thread very interesting as i purchased this particular shotgun a few weeks ago. It was advertised as being original finish but on inspection upon receipt (In good light} I noticed that the left side of the stock was dished where someone had sanded a dent or scratch near the butt plate. The wood to metal fit at the action is very tight, also at the forend. The bores are bright with no visible pitting or dents and the action is tight. The lettering on the rib is clear and crisp. i paid less that the asking price and although it sounds like it is not original finish I am happy with the purchase. Since the stock is dished I am considering restocking the gun with a nice piece of California English and re-refinishing the barrels and action. She's a keeper!

[Bruce Day]

Bore diameter and wall thickness?

[Chuck Heald]

Sounds like a great gun Mervyn. Keep us apprised of the project.

[Merv Boyd]

The description in the advertisement for the shotgun was as follows "Parker 20ga. “GH” grade light weight game gun on a “0” frame completed in 1900.
Weight: 6 lbs. 1 oz. Stock Dimensions: 14 ¼”x 1 ½”x 2 ½”x straight. Magnificent 28” Damascus Steel barrels with original 2 ½” chambers have absolutely mint bores (.616”/.617”), choked .003”/.015”, and minimum wall thickness of .035”/.034”. Action retains traces of original finish and barrels are a pleasing silver/grey. Original PG stock and splinter forend never refinished with composition butt plate showing minimal wear. Overall a very fine original gun -- tight, dead on the face, and mechanically perfect with all specifications conforming to the accompanying factory letter". I can post the web link to view more pictures if you wish!

[Bruce Day]

Should be a fine gun for you with those barrels. Stockmakers will tell you that duplicating a Parker stock is one of the most difficult tasks in stock making and many replacement stocks stand out as unParker-like. Maybe there is a way the dished in area can be corrected. I've steamed out dents and scratches and I know that a good stock man (not me) can do wonders with fixing problems.

[Chuck Heald]

I had a Parker stock duped by a man in Oregon. Very close work and only required some scraping and light filing to fit. PM or email me if you want his name.

[Dean Romig]

Was it Dennis?

[Chuck Heald]

Dean,
It was John Vest in Redmond Oregon. His ph# is 541-923-8898

[Merv Boyd]

Should be a fine gun for you with those barrels. Stockmakers will tell you that duplicating a Parker stock is one of the most difficult tasks in stock making and many replacement stocks stand out as unParker-like. Maybe there is a way the dished in area can be corrected. I've steamed out dents and scratches and I know that a good stock man (not me) can do wonders with fixing problems.

I think the dished out area is beyond steaming. It goes from 0 to about 1/16" to 3/32" at its deepest point and measures about 2" x 1 1/2". I'm not sure if the stock can be sanded down to level out the dished area. it would probably mean that the edge of the butt plate would also need to be sanded. The stock does have good dimensions and could probably be used for duplicating purposes.

[Merv Boyd]

http://www.sitemason.com/files/jdXysE/Parker%2020ga.%2096197%20l.JPG/main.jpg

Hi Bruce,
This is a shot of the side of the stock that was sanded.

Hope the link works.

Thank you all for your comments!

[Chuck Heald]

Mervyn,
How deep is the dish from the sanding? My thought is that reshaping the butt by lowering all the adjacent area and buttplate would work if it's not too deep.

[Dean Romig]

Mervyn, I know it is not, but if it were mine I would not replace that stock. The sanded dish may bother you a tad but you'll never get a prettier true Parker stock. It's a shooter, right? Live with it - and its minor flaws (JMHO)

[E Robert Fabian]

A good stocker could make that disappear.

[Austin W Hogan]

Take a look at Buddy Marson holding his stretch stocked gun at the last PGCA meeting. It is in the winter 09 PP. Grain matching would be no problem on your stock.

Try stockdr.com

Best Austin

[Merv Boyd]

Mervyn,
How deep is the dish from the sanding? My thought is that reshaping the butt by lowering all the adjacent area and buttplate would work if it's not too deep.

Hi Chuck,
The sanded area goes from 0 to about 1/16" to 3/32" at its deepest point and measures about 2" x 1 1/2". If you look at the picture of the stock that I posted the area in question is located half way between the toe and the heel and about 2' in from the butt plate. My preference would be to fix the stock and have it refinished. I am located in So Cal and have had Bud Duncan at Duncan's Gun Works refinish several shotguns with excellent results. He usually has Keith Kearcher refinish the damascus barrels.

I respect Dean's comment but I think she needs a makeover!

Again, many thanks for all of your comments.

P.S. I always enjoy the photo's of your four legged friends!

[John Mazza]

Seeing the gun was already purchased, I'm glad I passed on it.

(...nothing like updating their website once in a blue moon.)

Your gun is still listed, and is not marked sold.

Cosmetic features aside, it sounds like one helluva nice gun !